Real reason why you hate President Bush. Give me facts

[Wendigo]

Dark_Tears

WHEN

Seems uncertain, what sort of timeframe we were looking at is uncertain from the documents unclassified so far.

Quote:

WHERE

You haven't actually read "Bin Ladin Determined to Strike WIthin United States," then, I take it. "Federal buildings in New York."

Quote:

HOW.

There's a hint to that on the front page, though it's only an oblique one without our current hindsight. See? Our "more sensational threat reporting" suggested plane hijackings.

I would expect Bush to respond by emphasizing intelligence-gathering regarding these activities. It only makes sense, doesn't it? Because without when, where and how, we can't stop Bin Ladin from striking within the US - which we're sure he's determined to do.

If memory serves, our federal intelligence budget was still being cut at the time. Want to go look that up for me? I'd hate to think you'd doubt the claim because it comes from a dissident, so if you look it up on your own I don't have that pressure.

"Annual federal budget fiscal year 2001" should get it, in most search engines.

[Logic Bomb]

Ok, we will use green this time.



Logic Bomb Wrote:
a) 9/11 wasn't preventable under the new administration, as it was hamstrung from years of mismanagement and practice. Not just under clinton BTW

b) there are slightly less then 2000 dead in Iraq,

c) There are less then 1000 dead from katrina so far, and the vast majority of those who died did so during the first 48hours, AKA while the storm was still under way. As if bush could have turned off the hurricane!

a.) While one cannot necessarily hold Bush personally responsible, the lapses leading up to Sept. 11 cannot all be laid at the feet of other Presidents. Despite the fact that he was warned in August of 2001 that Bin Laden wanted to attack the US (not to mention a FEMA report earlier in 2001 that listed a terrorist attack on New York as likely), Bush didn't take any steps to improve domestic security. Regardless of whether or not that would have actually prevented 9/11, it's certainly indicative of Bush's pre-9/11 indifference to terrorism, which, in my opinion, makes him at least partly culpable. To have been warned and done nothing is not excusable, no matter how you slice it.

There was a critical failure of comunication between the FBI and the CIA. This was nt Bush's fault, as the system was broken when he inherited it, and he didn't know it was as broken as it was until after the fact. Unpreventable by the incoming administration, perriod.

b.) Your point?

Just continuing to show signs of spin

c.) A stronger Federal Emergency Management Agency could have prevented some of those deaths, possibly by providing the means to evacuate New Orleans prior to the hurricane striking the city. And it's worth noting that Bush is largely responsible for weakening FEMA by appointing officials that were totally unqualified and by shuffling FEMA into the Department of Homeland Security. Again, although he can't take all the blame, it's equally disingenuous to try to absolve him of any blame.

a) nobody could have predicted just how badly the storm wouold have hit

b) first respons is the LOCAL GOVERNMENT's responsibility

c) He overestimated the # of deaths by over 14,000

Ya know what, the rest of how you are trying to re-spin everything is just too stupid to respond to. Go piss up a rope libby.

[MaximusPaynicus]

[Wendigo]

Logic Bomb

a) nobody could have predicted just how badly the storm wouold have hit

Bzzzzt, Several people did, and their predictions came in detail, and years in advance.

Quote:

b) first respons is the LOCAL GOVERNMENT's responsibility

And they did. First response being about August 26, when the Governor declared a state of emergency and sought authorization for National Guard deployment.

[Tarrou]

Logic Bomb

There was a critical failure of comunication between the FBI and the CIA. This was nt Bush's fault, as the system was broken when he inherited it, and he didn't know it was as broken as it was until after the fact. Unpreventable by the incoming administration, perriod.

*ahem* This, as Wendingo noted, was presented to Bush in August of 2001. Now, how does that constitute a failure of communication? Seems like a failure of leadership to me.

Logic Bomb

Just continuing to show signs of spin

Given that we have 1,800+ soldiers dead in Iraq, I'd hardly call it 'spin' (especially since he did say that it was a rough estimate).

Logic Bomb

a) nobody could have predicted just how badly the storm wouold have hit

b) first respons is the LOCAL GOVERNMENT's responsibility

c) He overestimated the # of deaths by over 14,000

a.) Actually, some people did predict how bad the storm would be. And Bush didn't help by cutting the Army Corps of Engineers' levee maintenance funding.

b.) FEMA's job is, and I quote from FEMA's own website:

"The Federal Emergency Management Agency - a former independent agency that became part of the new Department of Homeland Security in March 2003 - is tasked with responding to, planning for, recovering from and mitigating against disasters." [emphasis mine]

Moreover, once a state of emergency is declared, that's it, game over; it becomes the federal government's responsibility.

Logic Bomb

Ya know what, the rest of how you are trying to re-spin everything is just too stupid to respond to. Go piss up a rope libby.

I'll take that as a concession then.

[Samuraikatagi]

Ever seen farenheit 9/11? look, Michael more PROVED that bush shouldn't even be in the white house, I don't disagree with the war, thats not what people are mad about. People are mad about the way he's going about it. He's screwing us, sending in reserves and NATIONAL GUARD when national guard should be HERE when something like KATRINA happens. The governor of Lousiana asked bush for support almost a MONTH before Katrina happened, he said no. She said that the state would need federal help, he did nothing. Now he is strutting around New Oreleans like a damn hero? bullshit. It is HIS responsibility for this, as he said, but it was HIS responsibility before, and look how long it took him to realize it! his plan in theory isn't bad, but wake up, he went about it the wrong way. Bush is not entirely to blame, but he is screwing this country. People need to wake up, and somebody needs to do something. power in numbers people, but nobody seems to do anything but say they hate him. This guy is standing up there pretending to know what he is talking about. His mother says ' the people down there were underpriviliged anyway so this is working out well for them.' Perhaps this attitude is running through the familey.

[mitoguard]

I have a rather different reason for loathing George Bush. It's not the war on shaky grounds of justification (or even that the administration got rid of Eric Shinkseki when he challenged the idea of "War on the cheap." wink It's the assult on fundamental American freedoms and blatant mob-style leadership.

Case in point:
We manage to torture innocent people

So, we have astounding ability to fight for freedom abroad. At home- we are now making legislation on the grounds that though we've never needed it yet, we might need the power sometime in the future.
Reuters article via Stuff.co.nz

Quote:

Democrats on the committee expressed concerns and pressed Caproni to give examples of cases where the lack of such powers had hampered an investigation.

"I am not aware of any time in which Congress has given directly to the FBI subpoena authority. That doesn't make it right or wrong. It just needs to be thought about," said West Virginia Democrat Jay Rockefeller.

Caproni said she could not cite a case where a bomb had exploded because the FBI lacked this power, but that did not mean one could not explode tomorrow.

"To-morrow," "To-morrow," we love ya, To-morrow, you help us take rights awayyy.
You can't really see a happy little orphan sing it, can you?

As for the Mob-style handling of the administration, Duchess I believe did an excellent thread on it. I do hope to provide a link to what she wrote as it was far more effective than anything I could ever hope to compose, in the meantime, I'll just leave you with one name. Valerie Plame.

[alligator saurus]

Wendigo How are you sure that information is true. Its just some website nothing from the goverment is said. It not a good source. They can saw what every they want to but unless its .gov then i'm not trusting it to many fakes out there. Or if it was a good news source

[Wendigo]

Dark_Tears

Wendigo How are you sure that information is true. Its just some website nothing from the goverment is said. It not a good source. They can saw what every they want to but unless its .gov then i'm not trusting it to many fakes out there. Or if it was a good news source

Uh, you referring to the effects of a hurricane on New Orleans being predicted in advance? Because even Mr. Bill predicted that one. Check it.

And please, don't tell me you doubt Mr. Bill's credentials. He's a very well-respected claymation doll.

[Plain Adonis]

Logic Bomb

Ya know what, the rest of how you are trying to re-spin everything is just too stupid to respond to. Go piss up a rope libby.

Good thing I brought my "a*****e to English" dictionairy along. Here's a rough translation:

"I lack the capacity to further argue my point due to superior argumentation offered by my opponent. Rather than politely admit fault, I will respond in a childish manner that accurately reflects my inherent nature."


Incidentally, she's still immune to reason and this topic is still pointless. Now if we were dealing with someone who weren't chronically blind to the others' point of view, THEN we'd have something.

[Keeshori]

Marquise de Carabas

That's kinda misleading. High spending isn't a liberal ideal, it's just a stereotype that Limbaugh conservatives like to throw around. It's the social programs favored by liberals that lead to what increased spending there is when liberals are in power, which typically isn't much. (For example, under Clinton, taxes and spending leveled out to the point where the government was spending less than it was taking in, although he didn't have to gimp Social Security or any such thing to do it. And Clinton's only moderately liberal.)

Oh, sorry, I should have been clearer. No, high taxation itself is not a liberal ideal, just the idea that the government ought to invest in social programs. And those programs are (often) excellent ideas in the long run, since many of them improve the nation's capital, whether by improving the workforce with education and a public transport system, or improving natural resources by protecting the air and water, etc. etc. Given that it's a fundamental tennet of economics that an investment in capital goods will eventually improve the economy as a whole by improving the quality and quantity of consumer goods, whereas just investing in consumer goods will keep the country in static at best, the traditional liberal push for social programs is really pretty cagey.

[alligator saurus]

Wendigo

Dark_Tears

Wendigo How are you sure that information is true. Its just some website nothing from the goverment is said. It not a good source. They can saw what every they want to but unless its .gov then i'm not trusting it to many fakes out there. Or if it was a good news source

Uh, you referring to the effects of a hurricane on New Orleans being predicted in advance? Because even Mr. Bill predicted that one. Check it.

And please, don't tell me you doubt Mr. Bill's credentials. He's a very well-respected claymation doll.

I'm not talking about that one. I'm talking about your"Bin Ladin Determined to Strike WIthin United States,"

[Shiro Miyana]

Dark_Tears

Wendigo

Dark_Tears

Wendigo How are you sure that information is true. Its just some website nothing from the goverment is said. It not a good source. They can saw what every they want to but unless its .gov then i'm not trusting it to many fakes out there. Or if it was a good news source

Uh, you referring to the effects of a hurricane on New Orleans being predicted in advance? Because even Mr. Bill predicted that one. Check it.

And please, don't tell me you doubt Mr. Bill's credentials. He's a very well-respected claymation doll.

I'm not talking about that one. I'm talking about your"Bin Ladin Determined to Strike WIthin United States,"

Wow, you really are lacking any sort of facts about Bush if you haven't even heard of that memo stare ...

How about this? http://www.cnn.com/2004/images/04/10/whitehouse.pdf

Here's the same thing (not in PDF format) http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/10/august6.memo/

Here's a link from CBS as well. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/10/terror/main611257.shtml

What do you know? Even your precious Fox News has a copy. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,165109,00.html

[Wendigo]

Dark_Tears

Wendigo

Dark_Tears

Wendigo How are you sure that information is true. Its just some website nothing from the goverment is said. It not a good source. They can saw what every they want to but unless its .gov then i'm not trusting it to many fakes out there. Or if it was a good news source

Uh, you referring to the effects of a hurricane on New Orleans being predicted in advance? Because even Mr. Bill predicted that one. Check it.

And please, don't tell me you doubt Mr. Bill's credentials. He's a very well-respected claymation doll.

I'm not talking about that one. I'm talking about your"Bin Ladin Determined to Strike WIthin United States,"

That is the document itself. It has been declassified by the government, and it has been transcribed and reported by the newspapers, as well as having wide circulation on the internet.

IF this were not the real deal, the government would have disavowed its contents and criticized it as a fake already. It was released some time ago; I recall referencing it frequently during the 2004 elections. So there is no reason to doubt that it is, in fact, the President's Daily Brief from August 6, 2001.

[Tuggerfub Drum]

Dark_Tears

Wendigo How are you sure that information is true. Its just some website nothing from the goverment is said. It not a good source. They can saw what every they want to but unless its .gov then i'm not trusting it to many fakes out there. Or if it was a good news source

If you're going to fall back on something like that, then I'm going to go with "How can you be sure that you even exist"? Maybe your blue is my orange. Maybe you think chocolate tastes the way I think sardines do.

And why isn't anyone touching my levee speel?! crying