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K-r-e-v-y-e-t-k-a's avatar

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stealthmongoose
Ameixah
stealthmongoose
stealthmongoose
Ameixah


Fascist/racist based genocide vs. a personal sacrifice. I don't see the correlation there. Hating a group and wanting to kill them off just because they're Jewish, Polish, Black, or mentally or physically disabled is not a good excuse. Hitler's reason for his god complex was not a justifiable one, it was almost childish. Who is he to define who is inferior; why should inferiority be measured by someone's ethnic origins? God heals the disabled, and loves all colours of His creation. Hitler himself was part North African, and Jewish. confused


By Christianity's standards it was more than justified. The man accepted Jesus Christ as his one and only God and savior, and was never excommunicated from any sect of Christianity formally for it.

Obviously nobody of any importance within the Christian religion considered Hitler non-christian or heretical enough to sever ties between him and God.

By all definitions that hold weight, Hitler was a true Christian.



QFE, this post has still not been debunked.


Hitler was a liar. The Nazis even tried rewriting history in school textbooks during his dictatorship. Textbooks were rewritten to paint a biased "good" picture of the Nazis, and a bad picture of everything subhuman.


Good Christians have been liars before, and genocidal murderers. Abraham, one of God's chosen if you follow the bible, slaughters children before they are born in order to prevent their possible sinful nature.

Hitler was baptized and saved by Christian authority, he has yet to have that right revoked. Once Christianity as a whole excommunicates Hitler, then we can consider him non-Christian.

Until then you have just about as much authority as LaVey in determining the Christianity of Hitler.

So far you've provided a bit of scripture that does not trump Jesus. What's your next move? Are you gonna quote me some Judas to try and debunk God?

Nothing you say will denounce Hitler's state as a Christian.




All you've proven so far is that you wish he wasn't.


Quote:
It can reasonably be said that, because of the region in which he was brought up, and the religious faith of at least one of his parents, Hitler was nominally a Catholic. Among his biographers, however, none assert that the boy was even baptized, although it is likely, and there is no evidence of any particularly strong religious element in his upbringing or of feelings of faith like those held by his mother.

So much for Hitler’s early life. What about his attitude to religion and the Church later on? In Mein Kampf (1925) Hitler criticized the Catholic Church in its political form, which he said failed to recognize Germany’s and Europe’s “racial problem”. His Party Charter for the nascent Nazional Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei demanded in Article 24, in contrast to strong Christian control of German’s spiritual life, “complete freedom of religion” (in so far, of course, as that was not a “danger to Germany”) (William Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, Arrow, 1991). Indeed, the official “Nazi Party Philosopher”, Alfred Rosenberg, (later to be hanged at Nuremberg), appointed of course with Hitler’s consent, was totally opposed to Christianity. However, Hitler the politician was also aware that to achieve power he would need to win votes from the Catholic Centre Party and could not afford total alienation.

Upon attaining office and enjoying a free hand, what line did Hitler take on religion and the Church? Five days after becoming Chancellor in 1933, Hitler allowed a sterilization law to pass, and had the Catholic Youth League disbanded (Shirer, The Rise). The latter was a measure applied to other youth organizations too, in order to free up young people to join the Hitler Youth. At the same time, Hitler also made an agreement with the Vatican to allow the Catholic Church to regulate its own affairs. (It is probably worth noting here the low value that Hitler placed on written agreements.) Parents were pressured to take their children out of religious schools. When the Church organized voluntary out-of-hours religious classes, the Nazi government responded by banning state-employed teachers from taking part. The Crucifix symbol was even at one point banned from classrooms in one particular jurisdiction, Oldenburg, in 1936, but the measure met with fierce public resistance and was rescinded. Hitler remained conscious of the affection for the Church felt in some quarters of Germany, particularly Bavaria. Later on, though, a wartime metal shortage was used as the excuse for melting church bells (Richard Grunberger, The Twelve Year Reich, Henry Holt, Henry Holt, 1979 and Richard Grunberger, A Social History of the Third Reich, Penguin, 1991).

Hitler’s references to providence and God and the ritualistic pageantry of Nazism were more than likely pagan than Christian. Earthly symbols of German valour and Teutonic strength were to be worshipped - not the forgiving, compassionate representative of an “Eastern Mediterranean servant ethic imposed on credulous ancient Germans by force and subterfuge” (the phrase is Burleigh’s own, in Michael Burleigh, The Third Reich: a New History, Pan, 2001). A Hitler Youth marching song (Grunberger, A Social History) illustrates it:

We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel,
Away with incense and Holy Water,
The Church can go hang for all we care,
The Swastika brings salvation on Earth.
(Horst Wessel was an early Nazi party Sturmabteilung street-fighter murdered by communists and turned into a martyr by propaganda chief Josef Goebbels.)


End of argument.
Source of article: http://www.bede.org.uk/hitler.htm

Hitler made Power his god.
Nerdologist's avatar

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MySecretConfession
stubborn and misled.
No need for flattery. wink

You know, I could easily say the same thing about you, but would you be convinced that it was true? Nope, you would just see it as an unsupported attack on your character. Such judgments of a person's character must be justified first.

MySecretConfession
It shows how much of a difference we share in our beliefs. choose what you will, it is in your freedom to choose.
Indeed it does. Okay. I actually don't believe in free will, but we don't have to go into that.

MySecretConfession
I'm surprised he has never took that away from you, since you claim him to be as such the kind of God.
I'm not surprised, since I'm an atheist. I spoke as if God existed, had certain qualities, and performed certain actions because it's simpler than to constantly say things like "according to the Bible." I never claimed that the biblical God would be the kind to take away my freedom of belief. My whole argument was based on the notion that the biblical concept of God seems contradictory and thus logically impossible. If you have reasons to think that this notion is inaccurate, feel free to share them.
Kevros Mirroan's avatar

Neophyte Firestarter

How quaint.

stealthmongoose, a question for you:

If I call myself an atheist (or a Buddhist, or something I'm not), and have several people in the atheist community who, not only would not ''revoke'' (if they could, lets deal with hypotheticals here) my title/label as an atheist, but would actually vouch for it, does that actually make me an atheist? Even if I blatantly go against the teachings of whatever this hypothetical worldview I possess has?

It's somewhat a rhetorical question I guess. My point is that why should we believe that Hitler was a Christian just because his ''status'' as one was never revoked by other people, and because he claimed to be one? What it comes down to his actions, the ones that reflect his beliefs. Does the core of the Christian faith call it's church to commit genocide? No, of course not. Does it teach to discriminate by race? No, of course not. Are Christians supposed to pass blame unto others, judge others in God's place, or lie, cheat, and commit suicide when all seems loss? No.

So I guess my real question here is, do you just want Hitler to be a Christian? It seems to me that you do. I have a problem with the ideology that the exception to a standard is somehow representative of an entire worldview and thought process. I don't see why Hitler calling himself a Christian, and others not caring (or refusing, whichever) to deny that claim, is in anyway relevant to the faith of Christ. Yet somehow it keeps getting brought up.

Also, if you currently believe that Christianity teaches if Hitler just believes in Christ, then goes and commits atrocities against humanity and somehow still makes it into heaven, I highly suggest you re-read the Gospels, Acts, Romans, and Hebrews. All books present the contrary. Mere mental belief that Christ is your Savior will never get anyone into Heaven, at least according to the Bible.

There is ''No definition that holds weight'' of a Christian outside of what the faith and the books its based on teaches. I say that carefully and very generalized, as I'm aware of all the little sub-denominations with their own books and myriad of ''God is... (love/prosperity/otherrandompositiveBS)'' theories.
Interitum's avatar

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Since no one alive personally knows God no one can say what is true and what isn't. I believe that people who hate him go to hell, and people who don't believe in him get shown the proof they need and get to make a choice. Of course that's not including whether they led a morally correct life.
Avgvsto's avatar

Anxious Knight

Athena_Ritashe
This is from Matthew 12:31-32

"31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

No one is sent to hell, they choose to go there. The only unpardonable sin is to not actually desire morality. To the loving God the concept of hell is hardly even an imaginable thing it is simply that humans can forget to be Godly because we are animals.
Young King under Heaven's avatar

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My darling, your existence is not what makes God angry; it is your sin. God does love us, he loves all human beings, but here is the thing; does loving someone mean you can excuse it wrongs? If your child breaks one of your rules, does he escape punishment? If he breaks the law, will he escape jail time? No, he will not. The same concept applies to Hell; it is punishment for breaking the rules. That is why we were given Jesus; by worshiping Him and acknowledging Him, He takes our sins onto Himself, and so we are cleansed of them and forgiven of them.
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I'm a Roman Catholic and I used to struggle a lot with and I still do. I don't believe everything the bible says, and would never take it word for word. The bible was written by humans, and therefore I do not consider it as the "word of God". This also means that everything in there is an interpretation that has been altered and twisted over the years whether people want to believe it or not. I also do not believe the church is perfect because it's run by humans and therefore cannot be perfect. Infact I don't see the purpose of going to church, if I can just pray at home.

I believe that there has to be some form of higher power out there in the universe, because (if you believe what science says, which I do), the start of our existence required several key conditions to occur at once, which the chances of happening were nearly impossible. In other words our existent is the result of the biggest coincidence ever! Too big of a coincidence, I believe, to happen without a little bit of "help".

So, I'm just going to stick to my morals. If I end up going to "hell", fine. If I go to "heaven", fine. If I simply stop existing, fine. Until the time comes though, I'm not going to worry about it.
Game-of-Hope
I believe that there has to be some form of higher power out there in the universe, because (if you believe what science says, which I do), the start of our existence required several key conditions to occur at once, which the chances of happening were nearly impossible.


Source?
Game-of-Hope's avatar

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Lucky~9~Lives
Game-of-Hope
I believe that there has to be some form of higher power out there in the universe, because (if you believe what science says, which I do), the start of our existence required several key conditions to occur at once, which the chances of happening were nearly impossible.


Source?


I'm doing extreme, and I mean extreme, paraphrasing. The source is my high school biology class. We were taught several creation theories and that was one of them. For privacy sake I will not say which high school. I admit I should have but a disclaimer there lol. I haven't taken biology in a year, so unfortunately I don't remember details sad
Little Fuzzy Bunneh's avatar

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I don't have a problem with Christianity, but it is most of the Christians themselves I have a problem with. Growing up, a lot of the churches my family went to, a lot of the people there were quite selfish in my eyes. Well, the first Christian church, I don't remember a problem with, but the second one is when I noticed the problems. Like one day I saw some kids bring in magic the gathering cards. I know that they are just part of a card game, but then, my mother shunned things like that, calling it witchcraft, so I naturally felt a fear towards magic the gathering cards. A lot of the kids in my sunday school class also came off as spoiled and a lot of the families from the church lived on the rich side of town and weren't there to help build the church. For the longest time, the church was held at a local community college. When they got enough money, they could finally build the church. My family was there pretty much every day helping. I know that kind of sounds like boosting, but it just didn't feel right for all those people to be there since day one and didn't even help out.

I guess I also started to question things when they kicked out a member of the church because he was a Wiccan. I remembered him being very nice and I had actually had a major crush on him, but they had shunned him. I always felt this sense of family with them and felt that's what Christianity was about, love and family and peace. When I got a little older and was old enough for the young adult class, I wanted to run away. No one was welcoming and I was just a shadow on the wall. Or at least that's how I felt.

Eventually we moved and this would be the third and final church I went to before I left. Pretty much everyone at this church lived on the rich side of town. It seemed like only a few of the seniors were kind to everyone. I always felt weird how that church wasn't family like. There was one kid in my youth class who had some obvious depression and would say some morbid stuff, but it seemed like I was the only one who noticed while the teacher just kind of shook it off. I feel bad for not speaking up, but I was a very shy person then and it was hard for me to say anything to someone. But, I remember praying for him and praying for myself as well because I was a bully victim outside of the church. However, it seemed like nothing would happen, even though everyone keeps saying that prayer is so powerful. Not to mention a lot of the stories in the bible made no freaking sense to me. Eventually I left because I wanted to find my own way. I didn't want to be forced to get up every Sunday morning to go to a place that made my head hurt and just didn't feel right in my heart.

And then there's that one church...Westboro, that's what it's called. Even I'm offended that they dare call themselves Christians when it seems like they hate on pretty much anything and everything. I really hope other Christian churches don't support them.

Last year, I dealt with being homeless. I felt mortified that my mother didn't go to the her church for help. I've seem them always put on fundraisers for poor children during the holidays, families suffering loss after a fire, and so on. I knew if they got together, they could help get me to a better situation. I was homeless for two months. I asked my mother if she knew what was going on and she said yes. I am still upset that she was just going to let me die out there if I had never begged her to let me come back home.

But anyways, that's basically my beef. I'm sorry if some of it doesn't make sense. When it comes to conjuring memories, I have a hard time keeping coherent. And if you guys don't like what I said, that's fine, but keep in mind, I am just sharing my story.
imSecond's avatar

Explorer

You have a twisted view of The Lord. ALL your sins you do, have done, or ever will do was taken on by Christ Jesus when He died for you.

God doesn't hate you for breathing, that's a pretty funny notion.

We sin everyday. Lust-full eyes, thoughts. Greed. Everybody sins. Admit your wrong, repent your sins, submit under The Lord's grace and love, & you will be forgiven. He is a forgiving God. He loves you.

I pray that He touches your heart & you see differently.
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God doesn't send anyone to hell.
People in Earth choose their path - being a good or a bad person.
They die, and IF they go to heaven, they can meet God Himself. If die and have some sins, they stay in purgatory, so they can let their sins disappear (we need to pray for them everyday) and go to heaven. If they were bad people, they go directy to hell and they can't repent there - remember Devil was an angel and he didn't want to obey God, so he picked hell (so people pick hell here on Earth too, by doing bad things on purpose)
There are good people who make bad things with no intention of doing them - that's not evil.
People who never heard of God also don't have any fault!
It all depends on your acts, words and thoughts, also trying your best to follow and to know God.
Athena_Ritashe
One big problem… when you get down to it the thing I did wrong is EXIST. I don’t have to do anything. Breathing is what earns me hellfire. God is mad at me from the time I begin to exist until I start saying I’m so sorry I exist and that I’m grateful that he created me. But he loves me? If he loved me he wouldn’t gleefully torture me, whether I am worshipful or not


No... according to the Bible, the reason why we have to repent is because we did something wrong. We've sinned. No one is perfect. Not even Christians. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we need Jesus because we exist. We need Jesus because we have sinned.

Romans 3:22-24
New Living Translation (NLT)
22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24 Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins.


God is just, so He can't let the wrong things go unpunished. But He loves us. He doesn't want us to go to hell. So He sends Jesus to bear the punishment. And I'm sure you know the rest : )

God's love does not cancel out His just nature.
Silence_Walker's avatar

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I think the keystone of the argument for saying God's some petty vindictive misanthrope is egotism.
"Wah, my life sucks, God hates me!"
By Christian doctrine, God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenevolent. Not once have I heard, nor have I ever been given any indication through reading Christian verse that he is quick to act. (garden of Eden aside, which more progressive Christians say might not be literal) In fact, God seems to take his sweet time on damn near everything. Freeing the Slaves (in Egypt) 400 years. 40 years desert roaming. 1,000 years between King Saul and Jesus.

So anyway, in the average 80 year drop in the bucket that is your life, a leaky faucet, or busted radiator or welfare dependence means precisely jack s**t to a timeless, ageless God who knows that if you follow his kid's example (don't be a d**k, acknowledge your failings), you'll be sipping champagne and noshing on bonbons for all eternity when your ticket gets punched.

When people make the claim God hates them because life isn't peaches and cream, it makes them sound like that douchebag on the playground who's pissy because he didn't get enough green skittles in his snack pouch.

Seriously, find a straw and suck it up.

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