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Also "All men are created equal"
Uh-huh. Please explain special needs and birth defects then please.


Equal in worth.
Alright so, I ended up just skimming through the rest of the responses after a certain point because there's digression from the OP, so I'll just get back to that . . .

Everyone please bear in mind I'm making this post based on my own experiences and religious study, and these are my opinions and observations. FYI, 'God' in this post refers to all three of His aspects at once (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

Ho my, dear. It seems you've been presented with a very black-and-white view of God and I'm not sure that's such a good thing. I'm Catholic, and no one ever told me that was how God was . . .

I think the things a lot of Christians forget is that the way we refer to God is as a personification, or as having a personality, when really, I think God doesn't actually really have a personality. I think God is more of a force with a will, ie the source of all wonderful, good things that wants us to be good wonderful people and do wonderful, good things and blah blah blah. We project our own human emotions and limits onto God, when God is more of an entity or force.

I'm also not sure it matters so much to God whether or not you believe in or worship Him. Human beings can be very uh . . . egotistical, and even if religion came from God, there's a human spin on it, which means it includes human flaws. And our flaws demand that EVERYONE CONVERT TO OUR RELIGION AW YEAH. I am in agreement with you that a God who DEMANDS WORSHIP ZOMG OR DIE is not a good God.

I also think the idea of 'worship' as we typically understand it isn't always what God wants. My best friend has pointed out that spending an hour on Sunday doing good works for others or spending time with a friend is a much more effective method of God's work than spending an hour in church (ie, church is for yourself to spend time with God, not to do things FOR God).

Worship doesn't have to be so literal as being preachy (which I find super annoying btw), it can be as simple as calling your lonely friend and asking to spend the day together, or doing a chore for your parents. If you're doing good things for that person (ie, living out Christ's example), you're paying worship to God. c:

As for the idea of sin just for breathing WHAT IS THIS BULLSHIT I CAN'T EVEN WHO SAID THAT TO YOU WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT THAT'S TERRIBLE JESUS CHRIST ON A CRACKER for serious why would they say that to another human being oh my God some people. That's not religion, that's just someone whispering evil things to you.

In Catholicism, we're taught that we're born into something called Grace. 'Grace' is the idea or concept that God loves you despite your flaws, and God wants to have a loving relationship with you. It is NOT a relationship based on how much worship you pay Him or whatever, it's a relationship based on the fact that HELL YEAH HE CREATED YOU AND YOU'RE AWESOME. You deserve that love and that relationship, if you want to have it. c:

As for the whole 'eating fruit and sinned thing' Catholics (at least) consider it a creation myth. We don't think that's literally how it happened, it was just a myth written 6,000 or so years ago to explain how things happened that just happens to be really cool. A lot of Christians tend to take things very er . . . literally, and I'm not sure that's such a good thing??

As for the Hitler metaphor . . . well, I think whoever taught you about God did a really terrible job because that's never been my experience with Him, and I can understand why you're agnostic and tried to cut yourself off from that (I would too, jeeze). And it's clear you created that metaphor based on what you've been taught well guess what I'm pretty sure it was bullshit, so . . . yeah. >.> Nor is God angry. God isn't capable of anger otherwise how could He love everyone all at once that's what makes Him God. LOGIC, YOU KNOW?

Anyway . . . in the end the thing that matters most is how you treat the people in your life, regardless of whether you believe in a higher deity or not. Are you loving and caring towards others? Do you put others first? Do you respect all lifestyles and creeds? Do you make things right where you see wrong? These are the things Jesus taught, and they're all you really have to remember. c:

Whether or not you choose religion in the end is YOUR CHOICE ALONE and whatever is right for you is what it will be, and no one can tell you otherwise, and I hope this helped. Remember that you're loved very much, and may you be deeply blessed. <3
Kashii_Ai
Whether or not you choose religion in the end is YOUR CHOICE ALONE and whatever is right for you is what it will be, and no one can tell you otherwise, and I hope this helped. Remember that you're loved very much, and may you be deeply blessed. <3

With all respects, I would like to ask you three questions.

1. Do you treat the Bible (Scriptures) as infallible and authoritative word of God?
2. How would you define evil and sin?
3. Should there be justice against all evils in the world?
Quote:
With all respects, I would like to ask you two questions.

1. Do you treat the Bible (Scriptures) as infallible and authoritative word of God?
3. How would you define evil and sin?
2. Should there be justice against all evils in the world?


Again, these are my own opinions and observations.

1. No, because the Bible was written by human beings. Human interference = flaws. However, I DO think the Bible has a lot of wonderful things to say. c:

2. Sin means isolation--acts that cut you off from people you care for. Examples would include manipulating others for your own gain, putting your career/hobby/an addiction before others, hurting others intentionally (bullying or abuse), refusing to do service to others, etc. The people in your life are often how God is present in your life, so by hurting others you hurt God.

3. That's a very black and white question . . . yes, I do think there should be justice against evils in the world. I think most people would answer yes to that question.

Do I think human beings are evil? Sometimes, but not often. Hitler, I consider evil. The average person? Not so much. I think it takes A LOT to be considered 100% irredeemably evil. The average person didn't perform genocide on millions of people and start the second World War.

This question doesn't really define what evil is, either, which is a question in and of itself. Is evil a force like God that tempts human beings? (this is what I think it is) Is it our human fallacies? Did God create evil to test us?

Also, what is justice defined as? Is it making things right again? Is it doing horrible things in revenge against the perpetrator? Is it forgiving someone and making things right?

Get back to me with the your definitions of these things and ask the question again. biggrin
Kashii_Ai
Do I think human beings are evil? Sometimes, but not often. Hitler, I consider evil. The average person? Not so much. I think it takes A LOT to be considered 100% irredeemably evil. The average person didn't perform genocide on millions of people and start the second World War.


The average Hitler didn't perform genocide on millions all by himself.
Lucky~9~Lives
Kashii_Ai
Do I think human beings are evil? Sometimes, but not often. Hitler, I consider evil. The average person? Not so much. I think it takes A LOT to be considered 100% irredeemably evil. The average person didn't perform genocide on millions of people and start the second World War.


The average Hitler didn't perform genocide on millions all by himself.


. . . why do people want to believe humans are inherently evil? I don't think there's such thing as the 'average Hitler' jeeze. It's this kind of belief that makes people create posts like the OP did.
Kashii_Ai
Lucky~9~Lives
Kashii_Ai
Do I think human beings are evil? Sometimes, but not often. Hitler, I consider evil. The average person? Not so much. I think it takes A LOT to be considered 100% irredeemably evil. The average person didn't perform genocide on millions of people and start the second World War.


The average Hitler didn't perform genocide on millions all by himself.


. . . why do people want to believe humans are inherently evil?


Beats me; you didn't explain why Hitler was evil despite being no different from the average person vis-à-vis performing genocides.
- xp
Lucky~9~Lives
Kashii_Ai
Lucky~9~Lives
Kashii_Ai
Do I think human beings are evil? Sometimes, but not often. Hitler, I consider evil. The average person? Not so much. I think it takes A LOT to be considered 100% irredeemably evil. The average person didn't perform genocide on millions of people and start the second World War.


The average Hitler didn't perform genocide on millions all by himself.


. . . why do people want to believe humans are inherently evil?


Beats me; you didn't explain why Hitler was evil despite being no different from the average person vis-à-vis performing genocides.
- xp


Oh, sorry. I think I misread your question--you mean like Hitler was average and performed genocide??

Well, I'd like to think the average person isn't SO EVIL that they would perform genocide against an entire people and that there's something wrong with doing that and I think there's a lot that happens from 'average person' to 'evil'. That's what I meant. Does that help?
Kashii_Ai
Lucky~9~Lives
Kashii_Ai
Lucky~9~Lives
Kashii_Ai
Do I think human beings are evil? Sometimes, but not often. Hitler, I consider evil. The average person? Not so much. I think it takes A LOT to be considered 100% irredeemably evil. The average person didn't perform genocide on millions of people and start the second World War.


The average Hitler didn't perform genocide on millions all by himself.


. . . why do people want to believe humans are inherently evil?


Beats me; you didn't explain why Hitler was evil despite being no different from the average person vis-à-vis performing genocides.
- xp


Oh, sorry. I think I misread your question--you mean like Hitler was average and performed genocide??

Well, I'd like to think the average person isn't SO EVIL that they would perform genocide against an entire people and that there's something wrong with doing that and I think there's a lot that happens from 'average person' to 'evil'. That's what I meant. Does that help?


That's okay, I didn't ask a question.
- sweatdrop

I mean like Hitler was average and didn't perform genocide without the help of lots of other average people.
Lucky~9~Lives
Kashii_Ai
Lucky~9~Lives
Kashii_Ai
Lucky~9~Lives
Kashii_Ai
Do I think human beings are evil? Sometimes, but not often. Hitler, I consider evil. The average person? Not so much. I think it takes A LOT to be considered 100% irredeemably evil. The average person didn't perform genocide on millions of people and start the second World War.


The average Hitler didn't perform genocide on millions all by himself.


. . . why do people want to believe humans are inherently evil?


Beats me; you didn't explain why Hitler was evil despite being no different from the average person vis-à-vis performing genocides.
- xp


Oh, sorry. I think I misread your question--you mean like Hitler was average and performed genocide??

Well, I'd like to think the average person isn't SO EVIL that they would perform genocide against an entire people and that there's something wrong with doing that and I think there's a lot that happens from 'average person' to 'evil'. That's what I meant. Does that help?


That's okay, I didn't ask a question.
- sweatdrop

I mean like Hitler was average and didn't perform genocide without the help of lots of other average people.


Yes basically that. What you said. XD

As for those people, I'm not sure. I think there was a lot of psychology involved with it, and they were pushed into extenuating circumstances (ie, prosecute Jews and other minorities or be jailed/die), but Hitler was the one who perpetuated it all and had more of a choice (or, well, a better set of options). So I think that's where the difference might be.
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I agree :3
and yes that is all
Kashii_Ai
Again, these are my own opinions and observations.

1. No, because the Bible was written by human beings. Human interference = flaws. However, I DO think the Bible has a lot of wonderful things to say. c:

So then scripture is not the revelation from God but rather man's agenda?

True, that the Bible was physically written by the hands of men. How else do you expect God to reveal his word to his creation?

Kashii_Ai
2. Sin means isolation--acts that cut you off from people you care for. Examples would include manipulating others for your own gain, putting your career/hobby/an addiction before others, hurting others intentionally (bullying or abuse), refusing to do service to others, etc. The people in your life are often how God is present in your life, so by hurting others you hurt God.

3. That's a very black and white question . . . yes, I do think there should be justice against evils in the world. I think most people would answer yes to that question.

Do I think human beings are evil? Sometimes, but not often. Hitler, I consider evil. The average person? Not so much. I think it takes A LOT to be considered 100% irredeemably evil. The average person didn't perform genocide on millions of people and start the second World War.

Personally, when there is people in this world that get away with robbery, rape, murder and etc. There will be a day of judgement, (especially for me!), to give an answer to our Creator for our actions.
Luke 12:2-7
"Nothing is covered up that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. Therefore whatever you have said in the dark shall be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in private rooms shall be proclaimed on the housetops. I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him! Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? And not one of them is forgotten before God. Why, even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not; you are of more value than many sparrows."

Can man escape the judgement of God?

Kashii_Ai
This question doesn't really define what evil is, either, which is a question in and of itself. Is evil a force like God that tempts human beings? (this is what I think it is) Is it our human fallacies? Did God create evil to test us?

Evil is the opposite of good (in theological terms: "holy" ).
Sin is the deed that offends/violates God's holiness.
God's holiness is the standard of what is good.

Evil is not some spiritual dark force like in Wicca. Man is considered evil because there is nothing good or righteous founded in man compared to God. This does not mean that man is evil as possible. Rather, it means that even the good which a person may intend is faulty in its premise, false in its motive, and weak in its implementation; and there is no mere refinement of natural capacities that can correct this condition. This condition started at the Fall of Man.

Did God create evil? No but....I'm not sure. It's a very tricky topic but I'll try to make a short answer. God's holiness is the standard of what is good so then the standard of whats evil would be the opposite of His holiness. At the garden, God created man with the option to know whats good and evil. Did God test man? No because God knew man would sin.

Kashii_Ai
Also, what is justice defined as? Is it making things right again? Is it doing horrible things in revenge against the perpetrator? Is it forgiving someone and making things right?

Get back to me with the your definitions of these things and ask the question again. biggrin

Ah, very good question! I definitely need some time to think on this one....
Quote:
So then scripture is not the revelation from God but rather man's agenda?

True, that the Bible was physically written by the hands of men. How else do you expect God to reveal his word to his creation?


I do believe it's God's Word, but I also think it should be taken with a grain of salt. God most definitely works through people, and that includes their writing. I'm a fantasy author and I write a lot about religion and spirituality in my work and feel closest to God in this work. But that doesn't mean what I say about spirituality in my work is 100% correct.

So I consider the Bible to be an authority, but I don't take it at face value. I do my own research and prayer and personally ask God what He thinks before I make any decisions about what the Bible says.

Quote:
Personally, when there is people in this world that get away with robbery, rape, murder and etc. There will be a day of judgement, (especially for me!), to give an answer to our Creator for our actions.


Yes, and notice that robbery, rape and murder are ways of harming and separating you from others. And you're also right that God will see it, even if others don't. I don't think people can escape God's judgement--quite the opposite.

But I also think this is God's job ALONE and it's not our place to judge others (I personally see it as 'playing God'). It's our job to carry out God's work as the force of all good things, and be forces of good things too by being Christ to others. And may the Force be with you. //shot

Quote:
Evil is not some spiritual dark force like in Wicca.


. . . my best friend is Wiccan good job you just offended me.

Wicca is not a spiritual dark force and is actually very similar to Christianity in the fact that they worship a single God divided into two aspects (male and female, God and Goddess). Kind of like the Holy Trinity, you know? And they also worship God's creation and offer up spells for others (you know, kind of like prayer) and use iconography much the same way Catholics do.

So . . . yeah. You might wanna research a religion before you say stuff about it.

Quote:
Man is considered evil because there is nothing good or righteous founded in man compared to God. This does not mean that man is evil as possible. Rather, it means that even the good which a person may intend is faulty in its premise, false in its motive, and weak in its implementation; and there is no mere refinement of natural capacities that can correct this condition. This condition started at the Fall of Man.


I believe the Bible right off the bat says this:

Quote:
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. --Genesis 1:27, New International Version


God created us to be like Him. If God is the force of all that is holy and good, this means we have all His goodness and holiness in us, doesn't it? I think the idea that our goodness is 'false' or 'weak' contradicts the idea of Christianity, because it opposes all the religion strives for--to be the image of God. To be LIKE God. If our goodness is weak and we're evil by default, how can we possibly ever measure up? That's an impossible, unrealistic expectation.
Kashii_Ai
As for those people, I'm not sure. I think there was a lot of psychology involved with it, and they were pushed into extenuating circumstances (ie, prosecute Jews and other minorities or be jailed/die), but Hitler was the one who perpetuated it all and had more of a choice (or, well, a better set of options). So I think that's where the difference might be.


Jail isn't a threat if there's no jailers; Hitler couldn't have perpetuated it all alone.
Lucky~9~Lives
Kashii_Ai
As for those people, I'm not sure. I think there was a lot of psychology involved with it, and they were pushed into extenuating circumstances (ie, prosecute Jews and other minorities or be jailed/die), but Hitler was the one who perpetuated it all and had more of a choice (or, well, a better set of options). So I think that's where the difference might be.


Jail isn't a threat if there's no jailers; Hitler couldn't have perpetuated it all alone.


That's very true. But he could still kill them. biggrin

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