Sith Realism

[Chieftain Twilight]

JustBiMe

Chieftain Twilight

JustBiMe

Chieftain Twilight

JustBiMe

Chieftain Twilight

I might as well bump this, seeing as someone showed interest in reading it and I linked her to it. it might be conmsidered "old and decrepid" now, though...

I miss you my dark bro of the sith! *hugz* how are you?

well if it isn't my favourite Grey Jedi! biggrin emotion_hug

I'm alright, I suppose. a few problems here and there... new love life, all that.

dunno if you noticed, but there was new discussion material above. ^_^

Will go over it as soon as my heart clears up. I am in love too, and the only thing I can think of is seeing that special person, after being away on a trip for 3 days. I miss her very very much already, wish she were on gaia *pouts*
Heh, passion, it is a double edged sword.
Finishing my last exam tomorrow, after that, who the hell cares going to spend my time as if the world ended this week WOO HOO!

I'm so sorry for your distance from your new lover. my girlfriend is away until the new semester starts up in January. so I know how you feel. it's hard on us.

Thank you m'friend. Holding on, holding on we are

and do that well; cultivate your Love for eachother with tender care, like a Garden. yes, that's it; a Garden of Love.

[Xiam]

catspook

I'll bite smile .

I agree with neither the Sith nor the Jedi. The Jedi appear (correct me if I'm wrong) to believe that strong emotions lead to bad things, and so should be suppressed. The Sith appear to believe that strong emotions lead to good things and should be encouraged. I believe emotions lead neither towards nor away from life's ultimate goals, but should be a goal unto themselves.

To use Anankin as an example, both the Jedi and the Sith failed him (and were in turn destroyed by him). He gut sucked into the Jedi because they offered him purpose (which he needed, emotionally) but ultimately he destroyed them because they denied him the one thing he needed the most - his family. And he joined and destroyed the Sith for the very same reasons. What Anakin really needed was mentors who would have offered purpose while simultaneously encouraging healthy relationships with both Padme and his mother - the Jedi tried to cut off those relationships entirely and the Sith pushed them to the point of obsession causing him to have a breakdown when objects of his obsession were destroyed. Both approaches ultimately destroyed Anakin and the organizations imposing them. Basically, Anakin really didn't need dogma - he needed a therapist.

I'd rather take Luke as a sort of "good" example. He tread the line between both, and he came out a far better person. He cared a lot - about his friends, his family, the Rebellion. But he cared about them for their sake, not his own. He was able to keep his emotions from getting the best of him, and refused to strike the killing blow on his father, because that was what he saw as the way of the Jedi. And oddly enough, it seems to have been a way neither Yoda nor Obi-Wan considered.

[Chieftain Twilight]

Xiam

catspook

I'll bite smile .

I agree with neither the Sith nor the Jedi. The Jedi appear (correct me if I'm wrong) to believe that strong emotions lead to bad things, and so should be suppressed. The Sith appear to believe that strong emotions lead to good things and should be encouraged. I believe emotions lead neither towards nor away from life's ultimate goals, but should be a goal unto themselves.

To use Anankin as an example, both the Jedi and the Sith failed him (and were in turn destroyed by him). He gut sucked into the Jedi because they offered him purpose (which he needed, emotionally) but ultimately he destroyed them because they denied him the one thing he needed the most - his family. And he joined and destroyed the Sith for the very same reasons. What Anakin really needed was mentors who would have offered purpose while simultaneously encouraging healthy relationships with both Padme and his mother - the Jedi tried to cut off those relationships entirely and the Sith pushed them to the point of obsession causing him to have a breakdown when objects of his obsession were destroyed. Both approaches ultimately destroyed Anakin and the organizations imposing them. Basically, Anakin really didn't need dogma - he needed a therapist.

I'd rather take Luke as a sort of "good" example. He tread the line between both, and he came out a far better person. He cared a lot - about his friends, his family, the Rebellion. But he cared about them for their sake, not his own. He was able to keep his emotions from getting the best of him, and refused to strike the killing blow on his father, because that was what he saw as the way of the Jedi. And oddly enough, it seems to have been a way neither Yoda nor Obi-Wan considered.

interesting observation. I always did admire Luke. his ability to use "Dark Side" Powers for benevolent purposes, and to embrace the reality of the need for Dynamic and Passion while tempering it with the focus, clarity and self-control of mediation and calmness made him the ideal Jedi in my mind.

[catspook]

Xiam

catspook

I'll bite smile .

I agree with neither the Sith nor the Jedi. The Jedi appear (correct me if I'm wrong) to believe that strong emotions lead to bad things, and so should be suppressed. The Sith appear to believe that strong emotions lead to good things and should be encouraged. I believe emotions lead neither towards nor away from life's ultimate goals, but should be a goal unto themselves.

To use Anankin as an example, both the Jedi and the Sith failed him (and were in turn destroyed by him). He gut sucked into the Jedi because they offered him purpose (which he needed, emotionally) but ultimately he destroyed them because they denied him the one thing he needed the most - his family. And he joined and destroyed the Sith for the very same reasons. What Anakin really needed was mentors who would have offered purpose while simultaneously encouraging healthy relationships with both Padme and his mother - the Jedi tried to cut off those relationships entirely and the Sith pushed them to the point of obsession causing him to have a breakdown when objects of his obsession were destroyed. Both approaches ultimately destroyed Anakin and the organizations imposing them. Basically, Anakin really didn't need dogma - he needed a therapist.

I'd rather take Luke as a sort of "good" example. He tread the line between both, and he came out a far better person. He cared a lot - about his friends, his family, the Rebellion. But he cared about them for their sake, not his own. He was able to keep his emotions from getting the best of him, and refused to strike the killing blow on his father, because that was what he saw as the way of the Jedi. And oddly enough, it seems to have been a way neither Yoda nor Obi-Wan considered.

But why was Luke so flexible and well-adjusted? Because he was raised as just a regular person before becoming a Jedi and allowed to foster a healthy emotionality. Luke was not indoctrinated as a child (which was how the Jedi did it when they were an established, powerful order) and so didn't take the the Jedi teachings as dogma, which pretty much every other Jedi we meet did - and that is why neither Yoda, nor Obi-Wan (or Anakin) considered Luke's approach. And none of them were as emotionally healthy as Luke - Anakin least of all. If Luke had been indoctrinated a child (or not been as well-adjusted as he was), I seriously doubt he would have taken the path he did. In fact, would he not have been consider heretical by the old Jedi order?

[Chieftain Twilight]

catspook

Xiam

catspook

I'll bite smile .

I agree with neither the Sith nor the Jedi. The Jedi appear (correct me if I'm wrong) to believe that strong emotions lead to bad things, and so should be suppressed. The Sith appear to believe that strong emotions lead to good things and should be encouraged. I believe emotions lead neither towards nor away from life's ultimate goals, but should be a goal unto themselves.

To use Anankin as an example, both the Jedi and the Sith failed him (and were in turn destroyed by him). He gut sucked into the Jedi because they offered him purpose (which he needed, emotionally) but ultimately he destroyed them because they denied him the one thing he needed the most - his family. And he joined and destroyed the Sith for the very same reasons. What Anakin really needed was mentors who would have offered purpose while simultaneously encouraging healthy relationships with both Padme and his mother - the Jedi tried to cut off those relationships entirely and the Sith pushed them to the point of obsession causing him to have a breakdown when objects of his obsession were destroyed. Both approaches ultimately destroyed Anakin and the organizations imposing them. Basically, Anakin really didn't need dogma - he needed a therapist.

I'd rather take Luke as a sort of "good" example. He tread the line between both, and he came out a far better person. He cared a lot - about his friends, his family, the Rebellion. But he cared about them for their sake, not his own. He was able to keep his emotions from getting the best of him, and refused to strike the killing blow on his father, because that was what he saw as the way of the Jedi. And oddly enough, it seems to have been a way neither Yoda nor Obi-Wan considered.

But why was Luke so flexible and well-adjusted? Because he was raised as just a regular person before becoming a Jedi and allowed to foster a healthy emotionality. Luke was not indoctrinated as a child (which was how the Jedi did it when they were an established, powerful order) and so didn't take the the Jedi teachings as dogma, which pretty much every other Jedi we meet did - and that is why neither Yoda, nor Obi-Wan (or Anakin) considered Luke's approach. And none of them were as emotionally healthy as Luke - Anakin least of all. If Luke had been indoctrinated a child (or not been as well-adjusted as he was), I seriously doubt he would have taken the path he did. In fact, would he not have been consider heretical by the old Jedi order?

indeed. as I recall, the likes of Jolee Bindo, Revan and Meetra Surik weren't too far removed from Lukes line of thought, and they were each either repressed, disbarred or exiled!

[JustBiMe]

Xiam

That's what I've done with some micro-PK training. Um... there was this site that had some kind of randomizer to pick one of two pictures, and you could select the one you wanted so it could keep track of the ones you got right and the ones you got wrong. And in order to ensure it wasn't making me think I was good, and actually doing something, I'd sometimes select the one I didn't want as if it was the one I did want. mrgreen

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

That is a good idea. Unfortunately I desire the good stuff too much to choose the cheap useless stuff. I do notice when I get one of the ones I didn't want I actually first thought to pick one of the ones that end up being gold or silver, I just didn't act on the first thought and so got it wrong. I think a better method might be to use cards. To keep it small I can pick two or three numbers to work with or try to focus on getting a certain mark. Something like that.

Another theory (or hypothesis) about the chests is that there is actually some kind of pattern to it that I might be picking up on subconsciously and that's why I usually know which ones will be silver or gold. This could be enforced by the fact that I can get the gold chest when I would have done better getting the silver one.

I have to say you all reminded me about watching "A Dangerous Method" recently. Karl Jung was very insterested in parapsychology and paranormal investigation, a great factor for his split from Freud.
I think we should not be close minded to any possibilities, but unless we are sure we can accurately investigate all sorts of phenomena, researching all subjects meticulously, it is best not to dwell too deeply into it, take it slowly and one thing at a time. Personally, I know of multitasking, but one can only do so much, and besides, I believe genuine interest and devotion to a topic makes the fruits of your research all the more wholesome and deserving of being studied and commented by other interested parties.

One question, about the whole precognition v luck: I have a particular notion on the matter, but, could it be possible to establish an experiment with controlled variables?

[JustBiMe]

catspook

Basically, Anakin really didn't need dogma - he needed a therapist.

hmmm, I find this sentence to be very amusing, and attractive. Right now, I find myself "loving" someone and that has gotten me to rearrange my life goals, perspectives on certain things, and of course gotten me back in touch with many emotions I had discarded previously. I have wept and smiled, but I would not say I have "tripped over the same stone" once more, as I knew what I was getting into, conscious of who I had become every day we spent together.

Chieftain Twilight

I see. even then, while yes, Emotions are important and so is expressing them, the key is that he must learn to express them in a healthy way that is constructive to his goals. it is about self-mastery.
emotions can't be an end in and of themselves... that is too dangerous. the goal must be to harness and coexist with your emotions.

I would say that a person in control of their emotions is "logical", as opossed to emotions controlling the self, because which is the principal and which the accesory? I say so simply because I consider this necessary for the good of a "civilized" being, but not some sort of ultimate goal. I have thought of that too, so very much, but a discussion on the matter could be so abstract as to lead to arguing of the "meaning of life".

catspook

And I just looked into the Revanites, and I agree - they sound much more sensible than either side. But how dogmatic are they? The article I found made them sound similarly dogmatic to both the Sith and the Jedi. Generally speaking, I find just about all dogma dangerous due to its inflexible nature. To one again you Anakin as an example, I'm not sure simply a more moderate force-based religious tradition would have cut it - with his obsessive personality, I could see him going too far with just about any dogma (I'm similarly obsessive and have had very bad experiences with dogmatic thinking, so I'm particularly sensitive to this issue).

Perhaps it isn't just you and Anakin, I was always a quiet child, but I grow more certain that "moderation" or "self-control" is something you teach yourself, and you are not born with. After all, it would make sense, considering I am one of those who thinks human beings "are animals", and rather than qualify them as intelligent, I would say "political" because of our high dependance on interaction (or the simple reassurance that there are people living outside your hermit hole, as would be my case).

In addition, I am glad you both are discussing Revan, I simply cannot express how much I reflect on his actions and life journey, doubtful, though sometimes wondering if I love him.

[JustBiMe]

I still believe people shouldn't cling to other people or things. Though I find myself in conflict, especially now, that I am in love.
Not to mention, I have still not resolved my conflict with the cycle of life, that is, aging and death. I recognize there's vanity and need of others involved, however, is it truly "natural" to let go of someone you truly love? Let go of something so precious to you, that it's monetary value is nothing compared to the sentimental?

My professor said something that rings of truth to me today, and of course, I acknowledged it before: "You do not stop hurting with time, you learn to deal with it, deal with it so it doesn't screw up your life".

Once more, is it natural to suffer loss? What if, even what we think of impossibly lost, could be regained?

Certainly I will learn to deal with pain in my life, as I have before, or I would not be alive anymore (not to say I have not tried to end my existence). But I also realize I do not believe in an "afterlife", or at least, I do not trouble myself with such a notion any longer.
I cannot rely on faith, though by no means, would I say religion doesn't have it's uses, whether one thinks it good or bad.
People should not need or want for nothing more than their survival and self-improvement, enrichment of one's own essence. Perhaps emotions are part of this "learning cycle". I will say no more for now, as I fear I may simply ramble.

[Xiam]

JustBiMe

One question, about the whole precognition v luck: I have a particular notion on the matter, but, could it be possible to establish an experiment with controlled variables?

"In my experience, there's no such thing as luck." lol

I suppose you could establish such an experiment. Er... what do you mean?

[Chieftain Twilight]

justbime

I'm of the mind that Faith is highly important in one's life, but I won't try to argue anything with you right now. it seems you are in the middle of brooding and I know I can be aggressive.

as for the Cycle of Life and Death, and the question of how natural it is to let go... lemme see if I can't give my view clearly...

I think that we are naturally inclined to hold onto what we have or seek out what we want, much more so than to let it be free. this goes for everything from slavery to ambition to greed and pursuit of wealth, to even simple jealousy and/or abusive relationships; people want what they want and are loath to lose it.

however, loss is also natural, and a natural coping mechanism is for us to be able to move on in life. in short, all of the natural behaviors are what are good for our survival and gratification. we naturally don't want to give up what we have or are trying to achieve or attain, however if we know that we cannot have it or that it will cost us something else more valuable or important to us than we are naturally capable of letting go to preserve something else.

also, naturally we become emotionally hurt, because the conflict thus makes it impossible for us to have what we want one way or another. we suffer, and that is natural. that is why we are capable of moving on -- because if we didn't, we'd go mad. it is in our survival-interest that we can let go, even if we retain strong feelings for something.

Death is part of Life. in fact, Life is a process of combining two pieces (two individual cells each comprised of 23 chromosomes) which once combined can then begin to multiply and grow. these pieces grow and grow and continue to grow until they reach a peek point (think roughly 40 years old, the "over the hill" point in life). then, they begin to deteriorate.

that is why we have the urge to procreate, we litterally make copies of ourslves in micro, which combine with copies of someone else and become a hybrid of wo individuals. that person then grows up to pass on the mixed genes that they have before they deteriorate, and so on.

it isn't just a Cycle of Life and Death -- it's a Cycle of Life, Sex and Death.

but, if you would be willing to hear out this belief of mine, death isn't the end. one of my favourite quotes is "I don't have a Soul. I am a Soul. I have a Body."

see, the physical Body is the vessel for our consciousness and our animating Spirit. our Soul and Spirit live on, our essence goes on to inhabit another Body and go through it's life. we experience things in the physical AND in the mental. after all, our Minds are who we realy are.

[Beatus Sine Nomine]

Being a LaVeyan Satanist, of course I identify highly with the Sith Code. Just look at how the Sith Code echoes some of the points of the Nine Satanic Statements:

Quote:

The Nine Satanic Statements

Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence.
Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams.
Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit.
Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates.
Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek.
Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires.
Satan represents man as just another animal (sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all fours), who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all.
Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification.
Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years.

My character's alignment in the 'Star Wars: The Old Republic' game is Revanite Sith. I employ a Machiavellian balance of harshness and kindness that brings me respect from both Sith and Jedi alike. It represents me pretty well, I'd say.

[CalledTheRaven]

As a question for such thoughtful types, do any of you have opinions on either of these books?

The Jedi Path
The Book of Sith

I know a young man who it genuinely looking into both paths and was wondering if these seems like reasonable starting places?

[Xiam]

CalledTheRaven

As a question for such thoughtful types, do any of you have opinions on either of these books?

The Jedi Path
The Book of Sith

I know a young man who it genuinely looking into both paths and was wondering if these seems like reasonable starting places?

Hm, good question.

On the one hand, they're both fictional books, and address only the fictional religions.
On the other hand, the real religions are based upon those fictional religions, and many philosophical points can be drawn from reading. I haven't read the Book of Sith yet, but I actually really liked The Jedi Path, both as a Star Wars fan and a Jedi.

I'd say it's a good starting point, but by no means the sole method of drawing philosophy. You might also like Star Wars and Philosophy. I've also heard good things about The Tao of Star Wars but I haven't read any of it yet, so I can't confirm.

And so I don't just make a really lengthy post of recommendations, I'll just quickly suggest the Tao Te Ching.

[CalledTheRaven]

So are there any other books or websites folks would recommend for more information on any of the force paths as actual spirituality?

[Lord Alucard Ere Casanova]

CalledTheRaven

So are there any other books or websites folks would recommend for more information on any of the force paths as actual spirituality?

I recommend the Temple of the Jedi Force for a Jedi path.