Avacyn Restored Spoiler/Discussion thread (MtG)

[Kaim Arouet]

Banning brainstorm is a terrible idea, and will turn a lot of people away from Legacy.

[Emrakul]

Its been discussed for years, but all the blue mages cry foul. The card is stronger then it should be and it is indeed warping (its not degenerate but it is overplayed, people have become to reliant on it and just like the potential delver banning in standard I would be happy to see it). If something is good enough to be restricted in vintage then people should be willing to admit that it is well above the curve.

[Kaim Arouet]

Let's get ponder too with that logic. You know what other cards have been begging for a Legacy ban? Gifts Ungiven, Merchant Scroll, Trinisphere, and Thirst for Knowledge. Limited in Vintage, obviously needs to be banned in Legacy.

Brainstorm is the best card in Legacy, a skill intensive card, and one that forms the back bone of how many different archetypes? If you banned brainstorm, you loose a major reason to play blue in Legacy.

[Emrakul]

Those cards are nowhere near as abusive in legacy without the fast mana. Brainstorm is legitimately above the power level. Every single blue deck starts with 4 brainstrom. With miracle in the mix BS becomes well over the top. I think its something to be considered. Most people were against the banning of MM even tho it was format warping to the point of removing an entire archtype off the map. Oh noes it beats zoo and gobbos, but we don't miss those things. Lets jam all the MMs, FoWs, Jaces ect. I'm not a doomsayer, this is by no means the end of magic, but I do feel people like BS even tho rationally it is stronger then it should be. Yes its skill intensive but that doesn't mean it needs to be legal. Hell wizards could elect to try a temp ban. Something just to gather a little more info before making such a huge change.

[Kaim Arouet]

Merfolk doesn't start with any Brainstorms, just saying. Banning Brainstorm hurts the format far more than it helps it. It just means every blue archetype either has to adapt, or becomes unplayable. This wouldn't be shaking up a format, this would be destroying Legacy as it's been known for years.

[Emrakul]

You don't find issue with every blue archtype (except fish in this case) playing a set of BS no matter what else its doin? The format can an will adapt but people are too unwilling to make changes. Lots (and I mean tons of people) will cry legacy dies with no BS, but I ask all the people to try it out. Sometimes we become to reliant on things and a ban here gives people a chance to really shake and shift the metagame. I don't think it will be detrimental but I do think there will be some growing pains. I'm not pushing for the ban of FoW (I like the fact that there needs to be stopgaps to degenerate early turn combo decks) I just feel they could experiment with brainstorms removal. We got plenty of time to see how/what really breaks down but I want wizards to take a look at it and at least be willing to discuss that its too strong (without truly being detrimental)

[LiaThistle]

If anything, I think they should ban Snapcaster. When an admittedly overpowered card (Jace 2) gets replaced nearly universally across archetypes with another card, it is either natural evolution (the card does what the previous card did, but better), or something is wrong. In Tiago's Ego's case, something is clearly wrong.

BS is fine as is.

[FurryTyrant]

LiaThistle

Miracle Time Walk seems like trouble, especially with a deck built around drawing cards and deck manipulation. Hey, look, they're both blue. Truthfully, I'm expecting banning in Legacy within a year. Legacy's drawing engines are far more manipulation than raw draw.

The rest of the cards don't interest me much. Heron guy is just a better power level Tajuru Preserver, and I don't remember that being particularly good, despite the affordable 1G cost.

Oh, wait, Griselbrand as an EDH general. There's a scary thought, and probably also suicide.

I was thinking the samething. Blue has always had the power to manipulate draw power (index, ponder, brainstorm, etc etc) and Miracle Time Walk, I don't doubt someone will find a way to abuse the living s**t out of this card. While I don't play Legacy anymore, I do hope that this card gets banned or at least restricted because while it is powerful, at least if it's restricted it will at regulate the abuse.

[Kaim Arouet]

Emrakul

You don't find issue with every blue archtype (except fish in this case) playing a set of BS no matter what else its doin? The format can an will adapt but people are too unwilling to make changes. Lots (and I mean tons of people) will cry legacy dies with no BS, but I ask all the people to try it out. Sometimes we become to reliant on things and a ban here gives people a chance to really shake and shift the metagame. I don't think it will be detrimental but I do think there will be some growing pains. I'm not pushing for the ban of FoW (I like the fact that there needs to be stopgaps to degenerate early turn combo decks) I just feel they could experiment with brainstorms removal. We got plenty of time to see how/what really breaks down but I want wizards to take a look at it and at least be willing to discuss that its too strong (without truly being detrimental)

IT. WOULD. KILL. MAJORITY. OF. THE. BLUE. DECKS.
That alone is reason to not ban the card, you'd lower blue's power so much to the point people would have no reason to play it. Obviously brainstorm decks aren't being too overbearing, seeing as Maverick have been punishing them for months now. Banning brainstorm is on par with banning force of will, it will change how people will play Legacy, and not in a positive way.

[Kento the Nogitsune]

FurryTyrant

LiaThistle

Miracle Time Walk seems like trouble, especially with a deck built around drawing cards and deck manipulation. Hey, look, they're both blue. Truthfully, I'm expecting banning in Legacy within a year. Legacy's drawing engines are far more manipulation than raw draw.

The rest of the cards don't interest me much. Heron guy is just a better power level Tajuru Preserver, and I don't remember that being particularly good, despite the affordable 1G cost.

Oh, wait, Griselbrand as an EDH general. There's a scary thought, and probably also suicide.

I was thinking the samething. Blue has always had the power to manipulate draw power (index, ponder, brainstorm, etc etc) and Miracle Time Walk, I don't doubt someone will find a way to abuse the living s**t out of this card. While I don't play Legacy anymore, I do hope that this card gets banned or at least restricted because while it is powerful, at least if it's restricted it will at regulate the abuse.

Lol Plus some return to deck from graveyard effects, empty your deck enough and Miracle Time Walk ftw.

(Lands)

(Random assortment of creature self mill or selective mill)

4x Mana Leak
4x Tempyral Mastery
4x Ponder
2x Memory's Journey
4x Think Twice
2x Runic Repetion

Seems like a nice Standard set-up abuse for it. Could be wrong, but oh well... yeah it is a bit over the top when someone does figure out how to abuse it in some weird loop. Probably Legacy and lower have the card pool needed for the task.

[Emrakul]

It wouldn't kill them, they'd just have to evolve. Yes they'd be at a lower power level (and yes Maverick is currently gettin more results then brainstorm based decks) but that doesn't change the fact that BS has always been at a higher power level then they have let remain in other colors. I think its something that could at least be tested. A temp ban to test it (if it is truly broken with miracle) Legacy will survive even if players wanna cry foul cause one of their fav cards goes away. It may need to happen.I'm open to both sides of the equation maybe blue can't survive without it, or maybe it evolves and stops being the best color in legacy and simply becomes another color.

[Dark Hunter Akala]

I'm so excited for Temporal Mastery.
I like Griselbrand too, but I don't think he's playable.

[Necropath]

So am I the only one who sees Moonsilver Spear joining Runechanter's Pike in Mage-Blade?
Edit: Also, I want a play-set of Killing Wave.

[Emrakul]

4 to cast and equip is too much for a tempo based deck. Its currently way to slow/awk for standard but things may shake up post rotation,

[LiaThistle]

Kento the Nogitsune

FurryTyrant

LiaThistle

Miracle Time Walk seems like trouble, especially with a deck built around drawing cards and deck manipulation. Hey, look, they're both blue. Truthfully, I'm expecting banning in Legacy within a year. Legacy's drawing engines are far more manipulation than raw draw.

The rest of the cards don't interest me much. Heron guy is just a better power level Tajuru Preserver, and I don't remember that being particularly good, despite the affordable 1G cost.

Oh, wait, Griselbrand as an EDH general. There's a scary thought, and probably also suicide.

I was thinking the samething. Blue has always had the power to manipulate draw power (index, ponder, brainstorm, etc etc) and Miracle Time Walk, I don't doubt someone will find a way to abuse the living s**t out of this card. While I don't play Legacy anymore, I do hope that this card gets banned or at least restricted because while it is powerful, at least if it's restricted it will at regulate the abuse.

Lol Plus some return to deck from graveyard effects, empty your deck enough and Miracle Time Walk ftw.

(Lands)

(Random assortment of creature self mill or selective mill)

4x Mana Leak
4x Tempyral Mastery
4x Ponder
2x Memory's Journey
4x Think Twice
2x Runic Repetion

Seems like a nice Standard set-up abuse for it. Could be wrong, but oh well... yeah it is a bit over the top when someone does figure out how to abuse it in some weird loop. Probably Legacy and lower have the card pool needed for the task.

For Legacy, simply run the old Emrakul/Doomsday lists, and when you drop your Doomsday pile, fill the rest of it with Temporal Mastery.
BBB turns into a win.