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Invictus_88
After all, if a definition of art widens the net far enough to include child pornography and crush videos as art...then the questions need not be from elitists or snobs but from the genuinely concerned.


But see, that right there encapsulates the issue I've been trying to get at: you are picking out things you despise to say, "well, surely THIS can't be art! How horrible!", implying that art must have a moral foundation of some sort. Well, okay, sure, you can get people worked up in a froth over some despicable things people do, but once you strip out the disgust and indignation, what reason is there to claim that art must be moral? Just because? Unchi-tan and the Art Lords say so? Moses come down with the Art Commandments? It's just nicer? Come on. Don't you have a better argument than to pick out easy hate targets?

People like to ascribe various qualities to the concept of art, but few of them can pull out any justification for those reasons that doesn't hinge on some personal squick or some article of faith alone or slavish obedience to dogma or some other very ephemeral thing. I'd be glad to admit there's more required for art than I'm stumping for - if someone could actually come up with a real reason or condition that did not depend on sliding scales that no two people can ever agree on. But no, I get Outrun dashing for the safety of Fort That's Not MY Job if I press her for anything specific, and I get Unchi-tan going "You'rewrongyou'rewrongyou'rewrong I'm taking my ball and going home waaah". I remain unconvinced by the ability to throw the biggest huff.

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designed freedom
One that will probably not be answered.


More questions I'd like answered:

If not all drawings, paintings, etc are art because they were not created by an artist, then what are they?


According to Unchi-tan, crude attempts.
For someone else who thinks differently (me), still art (bad art though, because the "artist" is not really an artist).

designed freedom

What differentiates an art drawing from a non-art drawing?


Uhm I'd like to hear your definition of non-art drawing, but I'd guess the media used from what I could understand...

designed freedom

At what level of proficiency does one have to have to finally be considered an artist and ones works art?


Personal opinions.

designed freedom

Two people sit down to paint a sunset. One is a classically trained artist. The other is a person with at best primary school knowledge of technique. Both re-create what they see. Are both paintings art?


Well that's the same as the 1st question, I guess it depends on your point of view. I'd say both are art pieces.

designed freedom

I at least opine that there is more to it than "art" and "not art". That is an opinion I have seen shared by people of many different walks of life, artist, art teacher and not. Your facts are not facts, but opinion.

I'm not sure what makes your opinion right and all others wrong.


Welcome to the discussion of the year - where our opinions are wrong and we don't know what we're talking about (I mean, it's our opinion yet we don't know a thing about it!) ^^

A must-edit:
Stop Him
But see, that right there encapsulates the issue I've been trying to get at: you are picking out things you despise to say, "well, surely THIS can't be art! How horrible!", implying that art must have a moral foundation of some sort. Well, okay, sure, you can get people worked up in a froth over some despicable things people do, but once you strip out the disgust and indignation, what reason is there to claim that art must be moral? Just because? Unchi-tan and the Art Lords say so? Moses come down with the Art Commandments? It's just nicer? Come on. Don't you have a better argument than to pick out easy hate targets?

People like to ascribe various qualities to the concept of art, but few of them can pull out any justification for those reasons that doesn't hinge on some personal squick or some article of faith alone or slavish obedience to dogma or some other very ephemeral thing. I'd be glad to admit there's more required for art than I'm stumping for - if someone could actually come up with a real reason or condition that did not depend on sliding scales that no two people can ever agree on. But no, I get Outrun dashing for the safety of Fort That's Not MY Job if I press her for anything specific, and I get Unchi-tan going "You'rewrongyou'rewrongyou'rewrong I'm taking my ball and going home waaah". I remain unconvinced by the ability to throw the biggest huff.


Wow, amen. Just... amen.

Offline
Tyrande Whisperwind
designed freedom

At what level of proficiency does one have to have to finally be considered an artist and ones works art?


Personal opinions.

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Offline
Unchi-tan
No, Stop Him, you are the one who is uncomfortable here. You are uncomfortable with the fact that there are standards present and that art can be defined by people who actually understand what it is, regardless of personal taste or personal opinion.


Those standards, though, are nothing but personal taste or personal opinion. And I don't just mean "what is good", either - all value judgments fall under personal opinion.

Unchi-tan
But it is universally acknowledged and accepted that not everything is art.


Obviously not universally, or this thread wouldn't be this many pages long. But I'm not saying everything is art, either. You want to debate my points, debate ones that are actually mine.

Unchi-tan
You are uncomfortable with the idea of standards because you don't live up to these standards for whatever reason. You, and every other person who posted on this thread defending the idea that skill is irrelevant and that anyone can be an artist is either unable or too lazy to work hard and live up to them.


No, I don't believe in your standards as they relate to the very concept of art itself. I neither like nor dislike your standards, except as they seem to give you Carte Blanche to verbally abuse anyone who dares disagree with Art Overlord Unchi. Ad hominem doesn't make you right.

Unchi-tan
I sing in the shower and in karaokes just for fun but that doesn't make me a singer. I ******** suck at singing.


What that makes you is a bad singer, and probably disqualifies you from being a professional singer. It doesn't make you not a singer. That's idiotic. What the hell are you doing, then? Quacking?

You want to talk "obvious"? Learn how to use adjectives.

Unchi-tan
You are an amateur,


Granted.

Unchi-tan
desperately clinging to the idea that art is a magical personal thing that everyone can have access to and be good at, because good is "subjective".


Wrong. If anything, I feel art is not a "magical thing" - that would be the opinion of people like you, who want art to only be for and by the elite, the trained, the whatever you think the requirements are. If anyone is desperate, it's you - because you think it means that if anyone can make art, you aren't special anymore.

But that's silly. Having a wide definition of art in no way requires all artists to be equal, it just means they're all artists - and "good" or "bad" or "skilled" or "unskilled" are qualifiers to be used to sort out where in the spectrum everyone sits.

Unchi-tan
But it's not subjective. There are standards present in cartooning, abstract art, portrait painting, sculpture, everything. Art requires skill because you need skill to live up to these standards no matter what kind of art you are trying to produce.


These standards you speak of only have meaning or application in the professional world. You want to get a job as an illustrator? Sure, you need to have some skill, talent, training, know things about composition, etc. I don't dispute that. Outside of that, though? No good reason to not call an amateur effort art - even if you qualify it as "amateur art". And even professional standards are subjective - opinions based on experience, but opinions nonetheless. What standards got Rob Liefeld hired?


Unchi-tan
A blank canvas titled "Hiroshima" delivers a powerful message. It's not easy to come up with something like that. It's a great concept, and even if I don't personally feel that it belongs in a museum or art gallery, I understand why it's there. A badly drawn anime chick with huge breasts delivers no message, is not skillfully executed and does not represent anything. Therefore it is not art, and the person who drew it is not an artist.


That's sophistry. It does represent something (albeit crudely), and it gives a message (though hardly an enlightened or profound message) - you just don't accept as worthy what it represents or says. And skill is irrelevant - ask Rob Liefeld.

Unchi-tan
And no matter what you say, no matter how you say it, no matter how many grown-up words you use, you are not an artist, you are a beginner.


Amateur, perhaps, hardly a beginner. Been at it far longer than you.

I have had my artwork published by companies I did not create. I am not a professional in the sense that I have made a living from it, but I have sold art and been paid for it, and have performed in a professional fashion. Other people have considered me enough of an artist to buy my art from me - no matter what you say, no matter how you say it, next to that your opinion means nothing.

Unchi-tan
Repeating self, hands on hips, wagging finger, then jams fingers in ears, loudly proclaims LA LA LA YOU CAN'T CHANGE MY MIND I'M RUNNING AWAY NOW NO TOUCHBACKS, slams door so she doesn't have to see her argument crumble like a rained-on sandcastle. Cue swell of triumphant end theme music.

Offline
Tyrande Whisperwind
I disagree with this. I think that anyone can be a writer, they just have to... write stuff. Not just random posts on the internet, but actually make an attempt to write something "more", like a book.


Earlier today, I was reading Umberto Eco's Six Walks In the Fictional Woods. It's an amazing book, if somewhat difficult, and it's changing the way that I look at the process of writing fiction. It's going to have a strong effect on my own work, and on the way that I edit and critique other peoples' writing.

Going from that book to your post has caused such a huge pressure differential in my brain that my sinuses have prolapsed.

Offline
Stop Him
Hurrrrr

I didn't run away from the thread, you raving lunatic. I gave up arguing because I was completely clear in my definition and I explained why it is not personal opinion and I still got a bunch of bullshit replies anyway and I'm just fed up with this discussion. I don't know how to break this to you, but you're just not worth my time. That is why I am not going to reply to your post in its entirety.

Except for this: getting paid for your art does not make you good. Unskilled beginners get paid for their art all the time because they're cheaper and there are plenty of bad professionals out there, too. I never said in any of my posts that being paid for art automatically made someone an artist.

And "beginner" is defined by how much you know, not by how long you've been drawing.

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Unchi-tan

I didn't run away from the thread, you raving lunatic. I gave up arguing because I was completely clear in my definition and I explained why it is not personal opinion


No, you just stated that your personal opinions were somehow not personal opinions. That's the kind of clarity religious fanatics have, not anything based on fact.

Unchi-tan
and I still got a bunch of bullshit replies anyway and I'm just fed up with this discussion. I don't know how to break this to you, but you're just not worth my time. That is why I am not going to reply to your post in its entirety.

Except for this: getting paid for your art does not make you good.


Didn't say it did - but it does make me an artist in the eyes of more than just me. Which makes your claims that your standards are the "universally accepted" standards to be so much noise.

Unchi-tan
Unskilled beginners get paid for their art all the time because they're cheaper and there are plenty of bad professionals out there, too. I never said in any of my posts that being paid for art automatically made someone an artist.

And "beginner" is defined by how much you know, not by how long you've been drawing.


ONLY TO YOU.

I mean, how easy must it be to "win" an argument in your own head by redefining words to your own idiosyncratic standards! "Why, no, beginner doesn't mean one who is beginning, it means one who hasn't achieved a level of skill that only I and the Art Lords can determine! What? No, years of unchanging use in the English language doesn't mean a thing if I up and decide it means something new on Planet Unchi!"

Sakes.

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Unchi-tan
I didn't run away from the thread, you raving lunatic. I gave up arguing because I was completely clear in my definition and I explained why it is not personal opinion and I still got a bunch of bullshit replies anyway and I'm just fed up with this discussion. I don't know how to break this to you, but you're just not worth my time. That is why I am not going to reply to your post in its entirety.

Except for this: getting paid for your art does not make you good. Unskilled beginners get paid for their art all the time because they're cheaper and there are plenty of bad professionals out there, too. I never said in any of my posts that being paid for art automatically made someone an artist.

And "beginner" is defined by how much you know, not by how long you've been drawing.


You know, I gotta say, you're the first person ever that I met with such "unique" way of view and way of expression opinions who get so worked up because someone didn't agree with you.
Of course, I met people like you, who believes in something they think it's right and no one will ever change their mind, but the difference between you and them is that they've learned from life experience that trying to impose such a different opinion on someone else, or even if it's not different but just the fact of imposing, is fruitless.

I'm really beginning to doubt that you're 28. I mean, if you act like this RL, you probably must get yourself into more trouble than the average joe, that's for sure.

And... well, you called me immature on the other topic, and for sure, as someone I admire so much, I wouldn't like to think the same of you, so can you please drop the offenses?
Even if you don't consider them offenses, well, they're a bit of too harsh replies which can be taken as, and you could, you know, be a little softer and try accepting someone's else opinion and not holding your own (which, as you stated many times, is how the world of art thinks) to be so true, I think you would be able to carry a civilized, mature and fine discussion with your endless and nearly infinite knowledge and wisdom about art, as we (at least I do) expect to on a forum.

Oh just to note, I'm not disagreeing with you nor anything, I know you're the coolest one here on Art Discussion and your friends would beat me up if I dare to say a word against you. As if I would, seeing how nice and friendly you are, I know I'm wrong on many many many things, even more if you say so, but please, you must enlighten us or we'd stray off in our deepless stupidity, unskilled skills and gay anime porn.

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Major Malfunction
If you honestly believe that "art has standards which should be met" is merely someone's personal opinion, you are beyond any possible reach of rational argument, and this is why Unchi has decided that she doesn't want to talk to you anymore.


Hey, if you can demonstrate how a standard of art is objective with any more rationality than Unchi-tan's "it just is", go for it. Unchi-tan doesn't seem to know the difference between objective and subjective, but you've got the whole "A CHALLENGER APPEARS" vibe going, let's see if you're anything more than a sack of wet insults.



...You could have fooled me that Unchi-tan doesn't like to use insults, as much as she indulges in the practice.

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Tyrande Whisperwind
You know, I gotta say, you're the first person ever that I met with such "unique" way of view and way of expression opinions who get so worked up because someone didn't agree with you.


Unchi has been extremely polite, relatively speaking, given that you are a useless, stupid t**t who apparently believes that there's no such thing as standards for art or writing. It's really quite difficult to believe that nobody has ever gotten totally exasperated at your idiocy before.

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Major Malfunction
If you honestly believe that "art has standards which should be met" is merely someone's personal opinion, you are beyond any possible reach of rational argument, and this is why Unchi has decided that she doesn't want to talk to you anymore.

This is because, as far as I can tell, she doesn't actually like insulting people, even when they demonstrate themselves to be gigantic morons. At this point, there is nothing to be said about your posts in this thread other than "you are a gigantic moron and I am surprised that you can use the bathroom without help", and rather than be mean to stupid people, Unchi would prefer to just stop talking to them.

I have no such problem. You are in fact a gigantic moron and I am astonished at Unchi's patience in dealing with your terrible posting and ridiculous assertions. I would have resorted to an endless stream of swearing some time ago if I had been her. You should be grateful she has been so kind, you assberger's case.


I'm amazed. Truly am.

I was thinking in ignoring your post like I always do with junk, but it's like 4am and sleep deprived, my mind's just not the same.

First of all, I'll give you congratulations. You wanted attention, you got it.

Now, let me continue my rambling...
...I'm amazed.

I'm amazed, and I don't know if it's because you do this because Unchi's your "buddy", or because you really think that. I mean, I thought Unchi was a rare find in the holm of egoistical human mindset, yet I think I might've found another! I'm truly amazed.

I'm amazed of how people can be incredibly smart to think their opinion is an universal truth and everyone else who doesn't think so are, in all ways imaginable, worst than them. Unskilled in whatever they do, dumber (not exactly this word was used, but it's how I got the message), of doubtful personal tastes, weird, among others.

I'm truly amazed to find people who can turn a simple discussion of stating an opinion into a pile of utter nonsense and single-minded point of views, disrespectful and verbal offensive one.

I knew people who'd do some of these, but I'm amazed to find someone who can completely ruin the mood by all possible means imaginable.

I'm also amazed, to a lesser extent, of my inability to shut up and ignore these fine examples of intelligence and just learn something- oh, not something, but the thing these superior beings are trying so hard to tell me!

But what amazes me most, of all the things I've seen in my life so far, is how can you manage to use a keyboard.

...and I watch Discovery Channel alot.

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Stop Him
Hey, if you can demonstrate how a standard of art is objective with any more rationality than Unchi-tan's "it just is", go for it.


Why should I care what you think? You've already demonstrated your complete irrelevance. You can go right ahead believing what you like, since there's no chance you're ever going to have any impact on the world, artistically speaking, because you do not understand how the world works. The fact that you are wrong is of absolutely no importance.

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Tyrande Whisperwind

I'm truly amazed to find people who can turn a simple discussion of stating an opinion into a pile of utter nonsense and single-minded point of views, disrespectful and verbal offensive one.


Yes, because you are totally beyond the use of disrespect and insults in these sort of discus

Quote:

But what amazes me most, of all the things I've seen in my life so far, is how can you manage to use a keyboard.


Oops, spoke too soon.

Keep thinking that you hold some kind of intellectual high ground, though, if it makes you feel any better.

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Major Malfunction
Stop Him
Hey, if you can demonstrate how a standard of art is objective with any more rationality than Unchi-tan's "it just is", go for it.


Why should I care what you think? You've already demonstrated your complete irrelevance. You can go right ahead believing what you like, since there's no chance you're ever going to have any impact on the world, artistically speaking, because you do not understand how the world works. The fact that you are wrong is of absolutely no importance.


And yet you bothered to speak. To let me know. Know of your utterly - yawn - stinging disapproval.

Well, I hope that helps you out with your impotence issues.


Gotta love that easy excuse. Unchi and you both, it's a two-fer.
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