Art: What is it not?

[Baou Windabagel]

FKUC U

you were calling her a liar of course she attacked you

and of course she doesnt care what you think

you "live in the now" are you some kind of retard

liking anime and modern art doesnt mean you can ignore art history you will never be good if you dont study properly and that includes art history and realism

your drawings are boring as s**t and you have no style unchis stylizations are incredible but youre such a retarded weeaboo that you think theyre bad because theyre not shiny anime

unchi NEVER SAID that she was a better artist than anyone here she said she knew more about art because shes a teacher

these are two completely different things you ******** moron

museum curators know a lot about art and most of them cant paint

even if unchi sucked she would still know better than you its very very obvious that she knows better anyway

ive seen her teaching gestalt on gaia and ive seen her make huge posts to help people with their drawings and she knows what she is talking about trust me. ive seen her help animation students with color and composition too and the pros and university students here on gaia all ask her for help and feedback why do you think theyd do that if she didnt know s**t

shes not up on a high horse and she doesnt think shes a better artist than anyone SHE NEVER SAID THAT ANYWHERE

god what is wrong with you people are you so jealous of her that you cant even read what shes writing

all she said was "i'm a teacher so i know more about art" well guess what SHE DOES and thats a fact even if you dont like her paintings

shes probably not coming back to this thread now anyway so be nasty to her all you like i guess

Wow! What a comment! It says.... "lack of comprehension towards the art form otherwise known to the world as anime!" Totally...

I agree that people who spout nonsense about the here and now are really just indicating that they are unable to comprehend the lessons of the past and probably don't do well in Social Studies. But... You lack the comprehension of what's going on around you! Can't you see that Unchi has a very stylized selection of art displayed here, which is very similar to that of anime due to its simplification of human anatomy and exaggeration of expression? Anime can be drawn in many different styles and insulting one form of "cartooning" and praising another when the difficulty to achieve either choice is about the same is just silly! Comprehend? Oh and stop with the swearing, it downgrades you and downgrades the person you're trying to defend!

I agree that attacking Unchi's artwork is pathetic at this point but attacking another form of art which is off topic to the discussion doesn't earn points for you!

[Baou Windabagel]

Baou's Opinion!

(Be at the edge of your seat!)

Art....
a) Its either a performance or a man-made creation!
Well it could be done by other intelligent life-forms such as aliens but lets not worry about the details.
b)It needs to be recognized by the audience as a result of creative thinking or artistic skill.
By audience, I mean humans with functioning brains who are past the age of... lets say three. The age limit is negotiable but lets not worry about the details.
c)All of the above.

If you guessed (c) then you get a golden ticket to Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory for your comprehension skills! 4laugh (Pleased be warned that the tickets can only be seen and felt by those with a pure heart, much like the Emperor's New Clothes).

[Meowhead]

Baou Windabagel

a) Its either a performance or a man-made creation!
Well it could be done by other intelligent life-forms such as aliens but lets not worry about the details.

... but can art be done by a sufficiently advanced computer?

Would it really be artistic, or would it merely be a soulless rendering with high production values, but not actually art?

Even if you got something sufficiently advanced to pass a Turing Test, would it really be capable of ever doing art, or just replicating mindlessly the art axioms that have been fed into it?

Also, I always thought Fkuc You was somebody who must really hate Unchi-tan, and was somehow sort of mocking her by acting like only people with very poor social and writing skills could agree with her.

In fact, if you'll look back, you'll find out that he was the one who was spending all the time talking about how amazing she was and how horrible of artists all the people who disagree with her are.

I mean... nobody who really liked her would go out of their way to make people annoyed with her, would they?

I might not agree with Unchi-tan all the time (Sorry Unchi-tan! Don't hate me!), but I like her, and I certainly wouldn't go make a random alternate account just to PRETEND like I agree totally with her. ... much less in a fashion so bootlicking, pathetic and poorly written, that it makes agreeing with her sound like a disagreeable proposition requiring a lobotomy. sad

Oh well. I guess some people on the internet have nothing better to do with their extra E-mail accounts.

[Unchi-tan]

Guys, I never said or implied that I was an amazing artist. It was somebody else who made those claims, not me. I mentioned my job and how long I've been doing it because it was relevant to the point that I was trying to make. There's been a lot of quoting people (not just me) out of context here, there's been a lot of provocation and name-calling and whatnot and honestly I think we should all just agree to disagree and move on because this is obviously not going anywhere.

I myself said a few pages back that professional != good. When I said that I was a professional, I was just saying that I do this for a living and that I've been doing it for a while, therefore I know more about it than those of you who aren't professionals. I'm in contact with this stuff on a daily basis, and I have to teach it as well, that was all I was saying; I was never saying that I'm a pro and therefore an art genius. I am constantly pushing myself and trying to make my stylization reach a certain level (it's a personal goal thing) and trust me, I know my flaws better than anyone else. I still have a mentor looking over my shoulder, I'm surrounded by people who are better artists than I could ever hope to be, and I get feedback - both positive and negative - on a daily basis. I ask my own students for feedback. Trust me, I know I'm not amazing.

I did what I could to give you all a good, neutral definition. If you didn't get it or accept it, there's nothing I can do about it. That's why I stopped coming back, because I realized that. Not because I "won" or "lost", but because I realized that if you don't want to accept what I'm saying, I can't make you, and I simply don't have enough time available to keep trying.

I came back because someone sent me a message saying that I was being attacked here, and I'm leaving again now because I have nothing useful to add to this discussion anymore and this thread is not about me.

Feel free to PM me if you want to talk or whatever, but don't s**t up this thread please. It's a nice thread.

Edit: I don't hate anybody here. I'm too old to hate people on the internet.

[xCasondra]

Unchi-tan

Guys, I never said or implied that I was an amazing artist. It was somebody else who made those claims, not me. I mentioned my job and how long I've been doing it because it was relevant to the point that I was trying to make. There's been a lot of quoting people (not just me) out of context here, there's been a lot of provocation and name-calling and whatnot and honestly I think we should all just agree to disagree and move on because this is obviously not going anywhere.

I myself said a few pages back that professional != good. When I said that I was a professional, I was just saying that I do this for a living and that I've been doing it for a while, therefore I know more about it than those of you who aren't professionals. I'm in contact with this stuff on a daily basis, and I have to teach it as well, that was all I was saying; I was never saying that I'm a pro and therefore an art genius. I am constantly pushing myself and trying to make my stylization reach a certain level (it's a personal goal thing) and trust me, I know my flaws better than anyone else. I still have a mentor looking over my shoulder, I'm surrounded by people who are better artists than I could ever hope to be, and I get feedback - both positive and negative - on a daily basis. I ask my own students for feedback. Trust me, I know I'm not amazing.

I did what I could to give you all a good, neutral definition. If you didn't get it or accept it, there's nothing I can do about it. That's why I stopped coming back, because I realized that. Not because I "won" or "lost", but because I realized that if you don't want to accept what I'm saying, I can't make you, and I simply don't have enough time available to keep trying.

I came back because someone sent me a message saying that I was being attacked here, and I'm leaving again now because I have nothing useful to add to this discussion anymore and this thread is not about me.

Feel free to PM me if you want to talk or whatever, but don't s**t up this thread please. It's a nice thread.

Edit: I don't hate anybody here. I'm too old to hate people on the internet.

Unchi-Tan, I have no ill will towards you. I would say the same thing to the next person. I commend you for stating what you believe to be true. I also commend you for coming back and saying your peace without being hostile with the information.

You're a good person, and I knew you were, but even good people need to be challenged. That's what life is about.

[Stop Him]

Meowhead

... but can art be done by a sufficiently advanced computer?

Would it really be artistic, or would it merely be a soulless rendering with high production values, but not actually art?

Even if you got something sufficiently advanced to pass a Turing Test, would it really be capable of ever doing art, or just replicating mindlessly the art axioms that have been fed into it?

In a sense, many of the fractal (or procedural) art pieces we see are art "done by computers", in that we humans are generally unable to conveniently do all the calculations and gruntwork needed to render this kind of image. Humans, though, provide the variables and formulas the computer uses.

Even the most advanced AI in existence today is still a creation of man, dependent on man to tell it to make art or not - without free will.

I wouldn't consider a computer to truly be creating art until the day that some computer somewhere just up and decides on its own that it doesn't want to calculate the stupid value of Pi anymore and starts doodling Naruto fanart.

[xCasondra]

FKUC U

you were calling her a liar of course she attacked you

and of course she doesnt care what you think

you "live in the now" are you some kind of retard

liking anime and modern art doesnt mean you can ignore art history you will never be good if you dont study properly and that includes art history and realism

your drawings are boring as s**t and you have no style unchis stylizations are incredible but youre such a retarded weeaboo that you think theyre bad because theyre not shiny anime

unchi NEVER SAID that she was a better artist than anyone here she said she knew more about art because shes a teacher

these are two completely different things you ******** moron

museum curators know a lot about art and most of them cant paint

even if unchi sucked she would still know better than you its very very obvious that she knows better anyway

ive seen her teaching gestalt on gaia and ive seen her make huge posts to help people with their drawings and she knows what she is talking about trust me. ive seen her help animation students with color and composition too and the pros and university students here on gaia all ask her for help and feedback why do you think theyd do that if she didnt know s**t

shes not up on a high horse and she doesnt think shes a better artist than anyone SHE NEVER SAID THAT ANYWHERE

god what is wrong with you people are you so jealous of her that you cant even read what shes writing

all she said was "i'm a teacher so i know more about art" well guess what SHE DOES and thats a fact even if you dont like her paintings

shes probably not coming back to this thread now anyway so be nasty to her all you like i guess

I never said Unchi-Tan was a liar, I said prove it. I don't think she's a liar.

I wrote this gigantic post proving you wrong, but I gave it a second thought. I am better than sinking to your level of banter. You need to seriously grow up. You sit here bashing people for the same reason you claim them to be bashing Unchi-Tan. The only person that was even remotely mean to Unchi-Tan was Art Destroyer. You're a child, who has succumb to hypocrisy. It's a sad world when you can't even differ your cause from your own actions.

I hate liars, I hate people who use others for their own personal gains, and I hate people who ruin other people's lives just because they can. But, there is nothing I hate more than hypocrisy.

All I have left to say to you, is grow up. Which I am sure is difficult to execute because people over the internet, such as you, for a prime example, tend to lose maturity as soon as a 13 year old girl goes "omg lyk."

[xxellaxpopexx]

FKUC U

you were calling her a liar of course she attacked you

and of course she doesnt care what you think

you "live in the now" are you some kind of retard

liking anime and modern art doesnt mean you can ignore art history you will never be good if you dont study properly and that includes art history and realism

your drawings are boring as s**t and you have no style unchis stylizations are incredible but youre such a retarded weeaboo that you think theyre bad because theyre not shiny anime

unchi NEVER SAID that she was a better artist than anyone here she said she knew more about art because shes a teacher

these are two completely different things you ******** moron

museum curators know a lot about art and most of them cant paint

even if unchi sucked she would still know better than you its very very obvious that she knows better anyway

ive seen her teaching gestalt on gaia and ive seen her make huge posts to help people with their drawings and she knows what she is talking about trust me. ive seen her help animation students with color and composition too and the pros and university students here on gaia all ask her for help and feedback why do you think theyd do that if she didnt know s**t

shes not up on a high horse and she doesnt think shes a better artist than anyone SHE NEVER SAID THAT ANYWHERE

god what is wrong with you people are you so jealous of her that you cant even read what shes writing

all she said was "i'm a teacher so i know more about art" well guess what SHE DOES and thats a fact even if you dont like her paintings

shes probably not coming back to this thread now anyway so be nasty to her all you like i guess

Alot of us know the adivce that unchi gives is good, most of us have seen it.
I know unchi isn't on a high horse, Some of us never said she was.
your doing what unchi and stop him where talking about. Juging opinion by skill level, just becuase some one elses opinion is diffrent then what you agree with dosnt make them "crappy anime artist"
I think i shell go back to blue...reds hard to read... sweatdrop

[Stop Him]

Okay, back on topic maybe.

Note: this is not a reply aimed at anyone in particular, though it may touch on issues debated with other people.

I read an interesting column by Steven Grant a couple days ago. Grant is a long-time writer of comics, both mainstream and independent, and often critiques comics and other media. In this column, his main focus is on the business of comics, and how that relates to creativity in comics - but he says a few things that can be applied to the larger concept of art as well.

I'll mention that Grant has a different idea overall of "what is art" than I do; in fact, he closes out his essay with this line:

Steven Grant

What matters is the result, not the process. I'm inclined toward Raymond Chandler's dictum: There is no such thing as bad art. There is only art, and precious little of it.

Other things in his essay suggest that like many others, he holds the concept of art to a far higher ideal than, say, myself - art as genius, art as more profound than the norm. I get the sense that his standards are not only far more demanding than mine, but probably more demanding than those of most anyone who's posted in this thread.

In that, then, we disagree - or at least, I have not yet found a compelling reason to think in the same manner. But he does say a few things I find interesting to think about:

Steven Grant

The first rule of modern culture: never underestimate corporatism. Like most American media, comics exist in a confusion of misinterpretation of their past, and cherished assumptions that don't necessarily reflect reality. There's a presumption in the question, for instance, that freelancer equates to numen, a controlling creative spirit. In fact, that was a very late development in comics, and more and more seems to be little more than a passing aberration, at least in areas of the field where money actually changes hands. This is the essential paradox of the comics business – of all "creative" mass media (comics still fall under that rubric, at least tangentially) – and source of much annoyance, finger-pointing and puffery in the field: it's very hard to earn a living producing comics unless you're willing to bend yourself to corporate control. Yet bending to corporate control is widely considered to be desecrating the holy cause of art – or, at least, those struggling to produce comics and meeting with little commercial success can still assure themselves they haven't "sold out" – but here's the dirty little secret of comics freelancing:

Comics freelancing is about craft, not art, and always has been.

[...]

Because freelancing wasn't about Art, in the sense of creative expression, but about commercial art, producing material to publisher/editor specification.

[...]

In fact, while interviews with Golden and Silver Age talent almost always ramble on about "creativity" (frequently in the "we were massively creative, not like these kids today who just copy everything" vein) the word may only be understood within very narrow parameters: parameters set by the publishers. Creativity in a Batman story is measured not in terms of genuine creativity but as imaginative within the claustrophobic confines of possibility allowed by the history and nature of the strip, as well as the personal preferences of the editor – and, in the case of Batman, the corporate license holder.

[...]

Again, it was a basic confusion of terms: drawing ("art" ) is a, arguably the, pivotal component of comics, but the nature of comics makes art difficult to seriously judge in terms of Art. We really judge it on the basis of levels of craft. Which isn't to say comics have never produced genuine works of art, only that we tend to define Art in comics by rather liberal criteria intended less to validate works of art and more to validate the tastes of the self-proclaimed judges.

Grant is implying two things worth noting: One, that what many people consider to be crucial elements of art in comics are actually questions of craft. Accurate anatomy, page layout, and so forth - these are things not demanded by art itself, but from the editors who hire artists to create the comics. Elements of craft contribute to the quality and appeal of a work, but do not determine whether or not it actually is Big-A Art.

And the other thing is that it's really the publisher and/or editor who are the driving vision behind the corporate comics. An artist can only do what they are allowed to do; if they either fail to meet standards, or they go "too far", they are let go and another artist is found.

These ideas have implications in other artistic situations: suppose you are asked to draw fanart of some character. If you accept that commission, what is your creative contribution to the final work? Sure, you may have a distinctive style, you may be able to generate a pleasing character pose, but the initial impetus, the "inspiration", if you will, did not come from you - the idea belonged to someone looking to hire you to bring their idea to "life". You were merely willing to hire yourself out to do the labor.

How many have heard of a band who has been accused of "going mainstream", altering their sound to appeal to more people, to get more financial success? Can such a band be said to be truly creating art? Or is the creator of such a band's music now actually the band's manager, or a label executive, or simply a wide common denominator among the general public? Or is it somewhere in the middle - a shared creatorship between one or more of the previously-mentioned persons?

Certainly corporate media, with its "Work For Hire" business model and copyright ownership, likes to - at least in a legal sense - portray itself as the creator responsible for the works it produces, regardless of who they hire to actually craft whatever they're making...

Interesting things to think about.

[mAmaT w4LkIn]

Stop Him

Okay, back on topic maybe...Interesting things to think about.

is there a book about Steven Grant or is it just in the newspaper or such which is contemporary...

[Stop Him]

mAmaT w4LkIn

is there a book about Steven Grant or is it just in the newspaper or such which is contemporary...

Huh? I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. Is there a book about Grant? Probably not, or at least I haven't heard of one. However, he is the author of many comic books, some of which have been collected into trade paperbacks.

The article I quoted is from his regular column on Comicbookresources.com, a comics-oriented news website.

[Dan Likes to Kill]

everything is art, (for me)
it's a way of seeing beauty in the most strangest things
it's the way to let them see emotion

I believe that the whole world is art my good sir, and anything can happen if you put your mind to it.........

so i'm saying even if it's just a sketch, a simple painting, or even just a splatter on a piece of paper, aslong as people see the world as art. Everything is art.
and this forum is for people who believe in that.

I don't know If i had made a concept for this
but that's just the way i see it.....

[Fatelovesthefearless]

I think anything can be art, but it depends on how you present it