Art: What is it not?

[mAmaT w4LkIn]

yo art destroyer....
show me your work first....
he who ask must answer first, you know....

why cant u just say she is a good artist because of the knowledge and just end it...
i know the difference destroyer....
im blabbering bout your attitude destroyer...
and the things that u just keeps on blabbering about.....

why cant u just believe her??? why???

[xCasondra]

Invictus_88

By way of introduction, I'm an undergraduate student of Philosophy with a strong interest in art and aesthetics, and am something of a veteran Extended Discussion poster.

I love art. I hate this forum.

So, how to make this productive? Create a thread to examine the issue at hand.


A general consensus seems to have arisen on this particular forum that anything can be art. Not just that sketches, crudely copied cartoons and home-made mangas are art, but that skies, food and plants are also art.

So, two questions:

Do you feel I am correct in my view that an unusually subjective approach prevails here?

To what degree do you feel that there exist things which cannot be art?

WARNING, this may offend a lot of people, I pride myself in honesty.


This is the same question I ask myself almost everyday. Before I answer I will give you a quick history about myself. Unlike most people, I have actually BEEN drawing since I was 3 years old. Both sides of my family have the "art gene" if there is one, but for the most part not everyone takes advantage of it. My aunt likes to recreate classical art that she finds in magazines, my grandfather is a comic strip artist. So, art was embedded in me very early on. Now that that is over, I will get into the goodies.

I am currently attending Art Institute of Pittsburgh Online. My advice, do not go here if you want a real education of the arts. It absolutely amazes me, 97% of the population of kids that attend this art school tend to just wake up one day and decide they want to be an artist without ever thinking about it before. Out of all of my classes, there has been only ONE artist who was anywhere near as good as I am, not to be egotistical, but it's the truth. I'm not amazing at art, I am barely mediocre, and it bothers me that I am attending school with people who don't have the slightest clue about the true hard work that went into getting where I am.

Let me tell you something, go onto deviant art, look at all the top rated art ever, if you are just now realizing you want to draw, chances are you may never, EVER reach that point. These amazing artists have been working their ENTIRE LIVES, years and YEARS trying to get as good as they are today, and I bet all of them minus one or two, believe they are not where they want to be artistically. It truly does bother me that just anyone thinks they can be an artist, draw a stick figure holding a sword, an call it a masterpiece. Art is a reflection of reality, but can be used creatively.

Now, there is a problem with gaia having like 90% of people who decide one day they want to sell their art because that's what the tips say to do if you want. This is the leading cause to why there is constantly a spam of art shops. This causes a problem for people who actually know how to draw, since their shops or customers are being rerouted. This isn't necessarily a huge problem, because over time the better artists still get paid much better than the lesser.

I believe you should do what you are good at. If you're 25 years old or even higher than that, and you still draw at the level of a 6 year old, you may never catch up to the people who are 15-20 and already rising to the top.

I have met quite a few people from my school, who can't draw to save their lives, and want to be lead art directors for video games. People, be HONEST with yourselves! Do not delude yourself into thinking you can be an art director if you can't even manage anatomy! There are 6.5 billion people in the world, and I bet in the next 10 years, there will be maybe 1000-3000 job openings in the art area of game design or animation. Only the cream of the crop will get those positions, do not put yourself in a life time of debt for Art school if you haven't been practicing for nearly all of your life. Chances are, if you're good at math, be an engineer, it's artistic and involves what you are good at. If you are good at languages, become a writer or translator. Do what you're good at, and if you're good at nothing, try to develop a skill that actually gives you a chance at getting a career in the area. The art area is not where you want to be if you want to live a comfortable life. 95% of all artists are shot down because they're not good enough.





Now back to on topic. Art is essentially anything man made that is essentially not necessary. For instance, hand writing, started out as pictographs somewhere in Messopotamia region. Some people have amazing hand writing, and others look like chicken scratch. How about your cell phones, why are all cellphones different looking? If not for art, all cellphones would look the same and very very hideous. How about sky scrapers? They mostly all look different, because the architect decided he likes a certain style of buildings.

The sky is not art, the planets going around the sun, is not art. Art is SPECIFICALLY, man made only, and in some sense, elephant too. Yes, even stick figures are essentially art. Flowers may look pretty, but they aren't pretty because we like pretty things, they have a function, and they are based heavily around their function.

[Meowhead]

Art Destroyer

what the hell!? i am not interested in whatever she says, any 'art teacher wannabe' out there can take someone else criticism, rephrase it and pass it as their own. ever heard of conceptart.org? it is a gold mine for digging criticism for anyone to use and *BOOM!* they got a**-pat for making witty criticism and tips.

... you weren't paying attention. I didn't say 'Go there, read her words, cherish them, change your life.', I said 'I believe in that thread she has posted her art'.

... I've seen her art. A lot of the people in this thread have. I'm not arguing she's right, or you're right, or Stop Him is right, or even Meowhead is right, I'm just saying...

... we've seen Unchi-tan's art, you can find her posting it occasionally and yes, to answer your question, she's pretty darn good at drawing.

I don't think that means you should automatically listen to her, but you can stop insulting her art skill, at least.

... and she's (supposedly) not reading this thread anymore, so I thought I'd answer for her.

[Art Destroyer]

mAmaT w4LkIn

yo art destroyer....
show me your work first....
he who ask must answer first, you know....

why cant u just say she is a good artist because of the knowledge and just end it...
i know the difference destroyer....
im blabbering bout your attitude destroyer...
and the things that u just keeps on blabbering about.....

why cant u just believe her??? why???

first of all i don't remember making any claim on who is more valid in defining arts? so i got nothing to prove. unchi on the other hand had claimed that her definition is more valid, why? can she back it up?

only the fools and idiots will follow someone blindly. show me evidence that she is really good and her definition is more valid than others. what does she got that others don't? i will soon find out when her artwork shows up.

i can be a believer and a devotee of her, but only if she is really superior than the rest as others had claimed and she has the written and undeniable proof of the standard and rules in art that she has claimed.

now it is either you provide proof for her or you can just sing all day long about my attitude.

[Art Destroyer]

Meowhead

Art Destroyer

what the hell!? i am not interested in whatever she says, any 'art teacher wannabe' out there can take someone else criticism, rephrase it and pass it as their own. ever heard of conceptart.org? it is a gold mine for digging criticism for anyone to use and *BOOM!* they got a**-pat for making witty criticism and tips.

... you weren't paying attention. I didn't say 'Go there, read her words, cherish them, change your life.', I said 'I believe in that thread she has posted her art'.

... I've seen her art. A lot of the people in this thread have. I'm not arguing she's right, or you're right, or Stop Him is right, or even Meowhead is right, I'm just saying...

... we've seen Unchi-tan's art, you can find her posting it occasionally and yes, to answer your question, she's pretty darn good at drawing.

I don't think that means you should automatically listen to her, but you can stop insulting her art skill, at least.

... and she's (supposedly) not reading this thread anymore, so I thought I'd answer for her.

then where is it? all i can see is "she is good!" "she is good" but about the artwork itself? none.

OK then, can you kindly tell me what does she got that others don't, for her to say that her definition is more valid than the rest?

[xCasondra]

Art Destroyer

Meowhead

Art Destroyer

what the hell!? i am not interested in whatever she says, any 'art teacher wannabe' out there can take someone else criticism, rephrase it and pass it as their own. ever heard of conceptart.org? it is a gold mine for digging criticism for anyone to use and *BOOM!* they got a**-pat for making witty criticism and tips.

... you weren't paying attention. I didn't say 'Go there, read her words, cherish them, change your life.', I said 'I believe in that thread she has posted her art'.

... I've seen her art. A lot of the people in this thread have. I'm not arguing she's right, or you're right, or Stop Him is right, or even Meowhead is right, I'm just saying...

... we've seen Unchi-tan's art, you can find her posting it occasionally and yes, to answer your question, she's pretty darn good at drawing.

I don't think that means you should automatically listen to her, but you can stop insulting her art skill, at least.

... and she's (supposedly) not reading this thread anymore, so I thought I'd answer for her.

then where is it? all i can see is "she is good!" "she is good" but about the artwork itself? none.

OK then, can you kindly tell me what does she got that others don't, for her to say that her definition is more valid than the rest?

When it comes to art, you can't say you're amazing without proof. Just like you can't say you're a great singer without proof. Heresay isn't proof, it never will be. I agree with Art Destroyer, that she will need to prove her art is amazing by posting it. Intelligent humans do not believe something just because they are told to, they believe something because they witness it or experience it for themselves. To each his own I suppose.

[Stop Him]

All right, I can't believe I'm saying this, but Jesus, lay off of Unchi-Tan's art skills, PLEASE.

The idea that art skills makes one qualified to judge art is her bugaboo, and should be left to her and her cheerleaders. I find it petty at best for a discussion of the definition of art to revolve around "you suck!" "no, you suck more!".

There's always someone better than the next guy.

[Art Destroyer]

Stop Him

All right, I can't believe I'm saying this, but Jesus, lay off of Unchi-Tan's art skills, PLEASE.

The idea that art skills makes one qualified to judge art is her bugaboo, and should be left to her and her cheerleaders. I find it petty at best for a discussion of the definition of art to revolve around "you suck!" "no, you suck more!".

There's always someone better than the next guy.

ok i am out of this gig, sorry mr.stop him and everyone on the thread. and sorry miss unchi, i just want to discuss and see how good you are for myself.

AD over and out.

[xCasondra]

Stop Him

All right, I can't believe I'm saying this, but Jesus, lay off of Unchi-Tan's art skills, PLEASE.

The idea that art skills makes one qualified to judge art is her bugaboo, and should be left to her and her cheerleaders. I find it petty at best for a discussion of the definition of art to revolve around "you suck!" "no, you suck more!".

There's always someone better than the next guy.

Where did anyone say she sucked? From what I gathered, they were questioning her, and asking her to prove what she says.

[mAmaT w4LkIn]

....everyone's art skills differs from each other....
its like what Lao tsu zu once said "u young boy are unique"....

Stop Him

All right, I can't believe I'm saying this, but Jesus, lay off of Unchi-Tan's art skills, PLEASE.

The idea that art skills makes one qualified to judge art is her bugaboo, and should be left to her and her cheerleaders. I find it petty at best for a discussion of the definition of art to revolve around "you suck!" "no, you suck more!".

There's always someone better than the next guy.

Art Destroyer

first of all i don't remember making any claim on who is more valid in defining arts? so i got nothing to prove. unchi on the other hand had claimed that her definition is more valid, why? can she back it up?

only the fools and idiots will follow someone blindly. show me evidence that she is really good and her definition is more valid than others. what does she got that others don't? i will soon find out when her artwork shows up.

i can be a believer and a devotee of her, but only if she is really superior than the rest as others had claimed and she has the written and undeniable proof of the standard and rules in art that she has claimed.

now it is either you provide proof for her or you can just sing all day long about my attitude.

actually u did, even if u didn't u r obviously implying that unchi validation is less of valid than yours meaning that u r supposedly claiming that ones claim are more valid than others...
i think she can back it up, from what u have read before you everyone is saying that she is valid to gives definition u 2 are valid, everyone's valid to give a definition...but u said she's definition is more valid i agree with you but she is maybe more experience than all of us in this thread, also compare to us in term of knowledge in art she is a teacher after all,and what are we... you could ask kaiser-chan(the site moderator) for this kind of thing...if u need proof u can ask other people for links if u dont have the courage to ask it herself....

of course!!!a follower without an intent or objectives is a fool...


i would rather sing all day long about your attitude than asking her for proof, u can ask her urself...

[empty_stocking]

Yes, to a degree, everything is art and art is everything. Art has elements that make up principles and those principles can be applied to anything. Marcel Duchamp once submitted a urinal to an art show and inadvertently challenged to world to think about that which was truly art. Anything can be appreciated as art. It doesn't necessarily have to have meaning or follow strict codes. There are artists who just draw lines on a canvas. It forces people to think "why" or in some cases "why not". Most "artwork" accepted in today's time is often accompanied by a statement or a concept such as "I was trying to show anger in scene where everyone is calm." Websites can be considered works of art as they are designed to grab your attention and keep you at the site. Gaia probably wouldn't be successful if it didn't have good artists working on its images. You could also say the games are nice and the campaigning to get people on the site helps but that campaigning and games have art in them. Art is a part of everything. It is inescapable.

Empty_Stocking
Junior Art Student

[princesspearl8]

art is not verbal. verbal art is called a poem.

[xXrAndOmE_coOkiEsZXx]

i dun think i can do art...but ma friends say i can!!
lol

[Unchi-tan]

Oh wow, I am the subject of a heated debate now? Thanks for the PMs about this exciting new development.

Art Destroyer, I have no idea who you are or why you hate me, because you weren't even posting here when I posted and you seem to be taking my words very personally considering the fact that I was not talking to you. I owe you no explanations for my words and no proof of my claims. But I'll go ahead and explain this bit to you anyway: my artwork is not showing up here because I moved stuff around on Photobucket, and forgot that I had art posted here on Gaia. It's just that Gaia is not a huge part of my life. It slipped my mind.

And I don't have a web site because I don't have time or desire to maintain one. I'm not ashamed of my work. Don't be ridiculous.

There is plenty of my work online. This was previously in a watercolor thread right here on Gaia, it's a color study for a portrait:



This was for some Ghibli fan art contest thing I couldn't finish on time, here's a couple of pages from my sketchbook (Tekkon Kinkreet study on the left, portrait study on the right), some old doodles from a sketchbook thread, and here's a study for a Norman Rockwell tribute book that never happened. Bonus, a failed attempt at cartooning.

And here's a kid:



I never claimed to be better at drawing than anyone else though and I don't know where you got this from. I do teach, but that doesn't make me a phenomenal artist and I never claimed that it did. What I said was that I know enough about this to be able to define it, and I stand by that statement.

Also the little poop you circled? That's ASCII art. They are letters typed on Notepad to form a happy little poop. It's an image file because Gaia messed up the formatting when I pasted it in the signature box.

Also, never thought I'd say this, but I agree with Stop Him: what do my art skills have to do with anything anyway? Whether or not I'm a "good" artist is irrelevant, really.

Edited to link to the images instead of posting them all (that was huge, sorry guys).

Ugh, went back and read some of the replies here. Ugh.

I never said that matching colors and good composition alone make something "art". What I was trying to say (and failing, clearly) is that these things have to be present and have to have been thought about and planned and have a purpose (as in, in the overall picture, not as in a 'deeper meaning') for it to be art. I said that knowledge of these things is required to create art. Again, it's the same thing with music: if it has rhythm and harmony it can be considered music, if not, then it's just noise. In order to create music, you have to know how to create rhythm and harmony, etc etc. You don't have to have gone to school for it or whatever, that's not what I'm saying. If you can learn it on your own it's just as good, really. Obviously I am just not good at communicating or something.

In the end, it doesn't matter really. Maybe I'm just not being clear enough or something, or maybe I'm just old-fashioned. Whatever.

I came back here because I don't appreciate being disrespected when I'm not around to defend myself. Art Destroyer, why didn't you PM me? Why did I have to get PMs from other people about this, and not from you? I would have had no problem settling this with you via PM so as not to derail the thread. If you have a problem with me, take it up with me and don't s**t up one of the few good threads in AD. I wasn't even reading this thread anymore and would have never known if I hadn't been notified.

[FKUC U]

oh wow theres a bunch i hadnt seen

how do you make it so simple unchi??? theres almost no detail but its all there

how do you sketch it do you draw the skeleton first like a stick figure

how do you do it like that last picture he doesnt look real but he looks real how do you do that?

you should color the rockwell one its sweet