Proof that Voter ID laws are Racist and Ineffective.

[Morbid Gnome]

Ratttking

Sorry, what do you mean by 'non-residents'? US citizens living in territories such as PR and the federal District of Columbia cannot vote for president or Congressional representatives, but citizens of the 50 states who are living abroad may vote via absentee ballot.

People in U.S. territories and DC vote for a congressional representative, a delegate, who is a non-voting member of the House. And DC has 3 electoral college votes, so DC residents do in fact vote for a president.

[Chibi Halo]

David2074

Chibi Halo

David2074

Sounds like a nightmare.
In my state they mail you your ballots, you vote, put it in the secure envelope you sign, the put it in the provided mailing envelope and mail it. Or if you don't want to pay postage there are a number of different places you can drop it off in person.
Easy Peezy.
Plus I really like being able to go over the ballot in the privacy of my own home, look up candidates and initiatives on the internet if I want, no waiting in line and so on.

It is a nightmare down there. Thankfully, I haven't heard of my cousin or my friend who live there running into issues with being able to vote yet. Heck your state's situation at one point wouldn't have flown in Wisconsin before SCOTUS told them to hold off enacting their voter ID laws while they were in appeals courts. In those you could get your mail in ballot but they then wanted you to show up at your local elections offices and show your ID or your ballot wouldn't be counted. It's kind of ridiculous some of the things being passed that restrict or throw out votes in the name of stopping voter fraud.

Oh how I miss the days when the older man down the street used to volunteer as an election judge at the school across the street and recognized your face and knew you were you said you were.

I can remember when in my state you had to attend in person to vote.
And I also remember when it was in person but you could request an absentee ballot if for some reason you felt you would be out of town or otherwise unable to vote in person.
Then they finally went to our current system where everyone has their ballot mailed to them.
NOTE: I use the term everyone loosely. It is effectively everyone but I think there are some options to vote in person under certain circumstances. But that is for the purpose of making it easier to vote for some people with special situations, not making it harder.

Out of curiosity I was just trying to find examples of voter fraud under our system.
The ""This is the worst case of voter-registration fraud in the history of the state of Washington. There has been nothing comparable to this," I could find wasn't even about votes. In 2007 a group of 7 people who were being paid to register voters filled out 1,762 voter registrations with fictitious names just to get paid for the registrations - nothing to do with wanting to actually cast fake votes. And while very wrong of course it wasn't a large enough number to change just about any election if those fictitious people had "voted".

Basically it was just some idiot losers thinking they were going to score some money because sitting in the library making up names was easier than actually talking to real people and getting them to register to vote.

No state is perfect by any means but there are a number of things about the way Washington state does things that I prefer over some of the stuff I read about some other states.

If the issue was about the registration process then yeah I'd agree the registration process needs to be streamlined so no one can use it to pad numbers or simply earn money by sending in fake people. That's been proven. The Chicago motto of vote early vote often, that hasn't been proven to have taken place that I know of.

[Ratttking]

Morbid Gnome

Ratttking

Sorry, what do you mean by 'non-residents'? US citizens living in territories such as PR and the federal District of Columbia cannot vote for president or Congressional representatives, but citizens of the 50 states who are living abroad may vote via absentee ballot.

People in U.S. territories and DC vote for a congressional representative, a delegate, who is a non-voting member of the House. And DC has 3 electoral college votes, so DC residents do in fact vote for a president.

I stand corrected regarding presidential elections, however representation without the right to vote in Congress is as bad as no representation.

[David2074]

Chibi Halo

David2074

Chibi Halo

David2074

Sounds like a nightmare.
In my state they mail you your ballots, you vote, put it in the secure envelope you sign, the put it in the provided mailing envelope and mail it. Or if you don't want to pay postage there are a number of different places you can drop it off in person.
Easy Peezy.
Plus I really like being able to go over the ballot in the privacy of my own home, look up candidates and initiatives on the internet if I want, no waiting in line and so on.

It is a nightmare down there. Thankfully, I haven't heard of my cousin or my friend who live there running into issues with being able to vote yet. Heck your state's situation at one point wouldn't have flown in Wisconsin before SCOTUS told them to hold off enacting their voter ID laws while they were in appeals courts. In those you could get your mail in ballot but they then wanted you to show up at your local elections offices and show your ID or your ballot wouldn't be counted. It's kind of ridiculous some of the things being passed that restrict or throw out votes in the name of stopping voter fraud.

Oh how I miss the days when the older man down the street used to volunteer as an election judge at the school across the street and recognized your face and knew you were you said you were.

I can remember when in my state you had to attend in person to vote.
And I also remember when it was in person but you could request an absentee ballot if for some reason you felt you would be out of town or otherwise unable to vote in person.
Then they finally went to our current system where everyone has their ballot mailed to them.
NOTE: I use the term everyone loosely. It is effectively everyone but I think there are some options to vote in person under certain circumstances. But that is for the purpose of making it easier to vote for some people with special situations, not making it harder.

Out of curiosity I was just trying to find examples of voter fraud under our system.
The ""This is the worst case of voter-registration fraud in the history of the state of Washington. There has been nothing comparable to this," I could find wasn't even about votes. In 2007 a group of 7 people who were being paid to register voters filled out 1,762 voter registrations with fictitious names just to get paid for the registrations - nothing to do with wanting to actually cast fake votes. And while very wrong of course it wasn't a large enough number to change just about any election if those fictitious people had "voted".

Basically it was just some idiot losers thinking they were going to score some money because sitting in the library making up names was easier than actually talking to real people and getting them to register to vote.

No state is perfect by any means but there are a number of things about the way Washington state does things that I prefer over some of the stuff I read about some other states.

If the issue was about the registration process then yeah I'd agree the registration process needs to be streamlined so no one can use it to pad numbers or simply earn money by sending in fake people. That's been proven. The Chicago motto of vote early vote often, that hasn't been proven to have taken place that I know of.

Agreed.
The only reason I talked about that was because it was the only instance of "voter fraud" I could find for WA state under the system we have. And that system includes both the vote by mail and the fact we do not have draconian voter ID requirements are weird laws about having to use your maiden name and such.

In other words, while I do not agree with the part of post 1 that claims to have proven that non-citizens voting are a significant factor in elections, I do agree with the premise that some of these new voter ID laws are not effective / disenfranchise some people / are an unnecessary PITA for other people and are in most cases probably trying to fix a problem that does not really exist or does not exist on a large enough scale to justify the "solutions" to the largely non-existent problem.

[Darkness Untold]

Politicians are faggots and the government is just a way to keep their citizens under lock and key. ******** this country until it gets better. The day that our ORIGIONAL constitution is back where it should be, and that our country isn't some racist, hypocritical, and controlling s**t hole, is where I'll start liking it again, until then I'll keep on hating both Democrats, and Republicans.

[Rationing]

Keltoi Samurai

The Washington Post

Could control of the Senate in 2014 be decided by illegal votes cast by non-citizens? Some argue that incidents of voting by non-citizens are so rare as to be inconsequential, with efforts to block fraud a screen for an agenda to prevent poor and minority voters from exercising the franchise, while others define such incidents as a threat to democracy itself. Both sides depend more heavily on anecdotes than data.

In a forthcoming article in the journal Electoral Studies, we bring real data from big social science survey datasets to bear on the question of whether, to what extent, and for whom non-citizens vote in U.S. elections. Most non-citizens do not register, let alone vote. But enough do that their participation can change the outcome of close races.

Our data comes from the Cooperative Congressional Election Study (CCES). Its large number of observations (32,800 in 2008 and 55,400 in 2010) provide sufficient samples of the non-immigrant sub-population, with 339 non-citizen respondents in 2008 and 489 in 2010. For the 2008 CCES, we also attempted to match respondents to voter files so that we could verify whether they actually voted.

How many non-citizens participate in U.S. elections? More than 14 percent of non-citizens in both the 2008 and 2010 samples indicated that they were registered to vote. Furthermore, some of these non-citizens voted. Our best guess, based upon extrapolations from the portion of the sample with a verified vote, is that 6.4 percent of non-citizens voted in 2008 and 2.2 percent of non-citizens voted in 2010.
Estimated Voter Turnout by Non-Citizens
2008 2010
Self reported and/or verified 38 (11.3%) 13 (3.5%)
Self reported and verified 5 (1.5%) N.A.
Adjusted estimate 21 (6.4%) 8 (2.2%)

Because non-citizens tended to favor Democrats (Obama won more than 80 percent of the votes of non-citizens in the 2008 CCES sample), we find that this participation was large enough to plausibly account for Democratic victories in a few close elections. Non-citizen votes could have given Senate Democrats the pivotal 60th vote needed to overcome filibusters in order to pass health-care reform and other Obama administration priorities in the 111th Congress. Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) won election in 2008 with a victory margin of 312 votes. Votes cast by just 0.65 percent of Minnesota non-citizens could account for this margin. It is also possible that non-citizen votes were responsible for Obama’s 2008 victory in North Carolina. Obama won the state by 14,177 votes, so a turnout by 5.1 percent of North Carolina’s adult non-citizens would have provided this victory margin.

We also find that one of the favorite policies advocated by conservatives to prevent voter fraud appears strikingly ineffective. Nearly three quarters of the non-citizens who indicated they were asked to provide photo identification at the polls claimed to have subsequently voted.

link


TL;DR: Voter ID laws are racist, and do nothing to actually combat voter fraud, since fraud votes were actually cast by those registered illegally, many of which showed ID anyhow.

Remember, kiddies: Vote Democrat, Vote Early and Vote Often.

I mean, it's just an ID card.

[Keltoi Samurai]

Rationing

Keltoi Samurai

The Washington Post

Could control of the Senate in 2014 be decided by illegal votes cast by non-citizens? Some argue that incidents of voting by non-citizens are so rare as to be inconsequential, with efforts to block fraud a screen for an agenda to prevent poor and minority voters from exercising the franchise, while others define such incidents as a threat to democracy itself. Both sides depend more heavily on anecdotes than data.

In a forthcoming article in the journal Electoral Studies, we bring real data from big social science survey datasets to bear on the question of whether, to what extent, and for whom non-citizens vote in U.S. elections. Most non-citizens do not register, let alone vote. But enough do that their participation can change the outcome of close races.

Our data comes from the Cooperative Congressional Election Study (CCES). Its large number of observations (32,800 in 2008 and 55,400 in 2010) provide sufficient samples of the non-immigrant sub-population, with 339 non-citizen respondents in 2008 and 489 in 2010. For the 2008 CCES, we also attempted to match respondents to voter files so that we could verify whether they actually voted.

How many non-citizens participate in U.S. elections? More than 14 percent of non-citizens in both the 2008 and 2010 samples indicated that they were registered to vote. Furthermore, some of these non-citizens voted. Our best guess, based upon extrapolations from the portion of the sample with a verified vote, is that 6.4 percent of non-citizens voted in 2008 and 2.2 percent of non-citizens voted in 2010.
Estimated Voter Turnout by Non-Citizens
2008 2010
Self reported and/or verified 38 (11.3%) 13 (3.5%)
Self reported and verified 5 (1.5%) N.A.
Adjusted estimate 21 (6.4%) 8 (2.2%)

Because non-citizens tended to favor Democrats (Obama won more than 80 percent of the votes of non-citizens in the 2008 CCES sample), we find that this participation was large enough to plausibly account for Democratic victories in a few close elections. Non-citizen votes could have given Senate Democrats the pivotal 60th vote needed to overcome filibusters in order to pass health-care reform and other Obama administration priorities in the 111th Congress. Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) won election in 2008 with a victory margin of 312 votes. Votes cast by just 0.65 percent of Minnesota non-citizens could account for this margin. It is also possible that non-citizen votes were responsible for Obama’s 2008 victory in North Carolina. Obama won the state by 14,177 votes, so a turnout by 5.1 percent of North Carolina’s adult non-citizens would have provided this victory margin.

We also find that one of the favorite policies advocated by conservatives to prevent voter fraud appears strikingly ineffective. Nearly three quarters of the non-citizens who indicated they were asked to provide photo identification at the polls claimed to have subsequently voted.

link


TL;DR: Voter ID laws are racist, and do nothing to actually combat voter fraud, since fraud votes were actually cast by those registered illegally, many of which showed ID anyhow.

Remember, kiddies: Vote Democrat, Vote Early and Vote Often.

I mean, it's just an ID card.

No, it's a way to suppress actual voters ( mostly minority voters ) without actually doing anything about the problem of ineligible persons voting.

[V0kinN0ed]

Keltoi Samurai

Rationing

Keltoi Samurai

The Washington Post

Could control of the Senate in 2014 be decided by illegal votes cast by non-citizens? Some argue that incidents of voting by non-citizens are so rare as to be inconsequential, with efforts to block fraud a screen for an agenda to prevent poor and minority voters from exercising the franchise, while others define such incidents as a threat to democracy itself. Both sides depend more heavily on anecdotes than data.

In a forthcoming article in the journal Electoral Studies, we bring real data from big social science survey datasets to bear on the question of whether, to what extent, and for whom non-citizens vote in U.S. elections. Most non-citizens do not register, let alone vote. But enough do that their participation can change the outcome of close races.

Our data comes from the Cooperative Congressional Election Study (CCES). Its large number of observations (32,800 in 2008 and 55,400 in 2010) provide sufficient samples of the non-immigrant sub-population, with 339 non-citizen respondents in 2008 and 489 in 2010. For the 2008 CCES, we also attempted to match respondents to voter files so that we could verify whether they actually voted.

How many non-citizens participate in U.S. elections? More than 14 percent of non-citizens in both the 2008 and 2010 samples indicated that they were registered to vote. Furthermore, some of these non-citizens voted. Our best guess, based upon extrapolations from the portion of the sample with a verified vote, is that 6.4 percent of non-citizens voted in 2008 and 2.2 percent of non-citizens voted in 2010.
Estimated Voter Turnout by Non-Citizens
2008 2010
Self reported and/or verified 38 (11.3%) 13 (3.5%)
Self reported and verified 5 (1.5%) N.A.
Adjusted estimate 21 (6.4%) 8 (2.2%)

Because non-citizens tended to favor Democrats (Obama won more than 80 percent of the votes of non-citizens in the 2008 CCES sample), we find that this participation was large enough to plausibly account for Democratic victories in a few close elections. Non-citizen votes could have given Senate Democrats the pivotal 60th vote needed to overcome filibusters in order to pass health-care reform and other Obama administration priorities in the 111th Congress. Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) won election in 2008 with a victory margin of 312 votes. Votes cast by just 0.65 percent of Minnesota non-citizens could account for this margin. It is also possible that non-citizen votes were responsible for Obama’s 2008 victory in North Carolina. Obama won the state by 14,177 votes, so a turnout by 5.1 percent of North Carolina’s adult non-citizens would have provided this victory margin.

We also find that one of the favorite policies advocated by conservatives to prevent voter fraud appears strikingly ineffective. Nearly three quarters of the non-citizens who indicated they were asked to provide photo identification at the polls claimed to have subsequently voted.

link


TL;DR: Voter ID laws are racist, and do nothing to actually combat voter fraud, since fraud votes were actually cast by those registered illegally, many of which showed ID anyhow.

Remember, kiddies: Vote Democrat, Vote Early and Vote Often.

I mean, it's just an ID card.

No, it's a way to suppress actual voters ( mostly minority voters ) without actually doing anything about the problem of ineligible persons voting.

Do you even vote?

[Rationing]

Keltoi Samurai

Rationing

Keltoi Samurai

The Washington Post

Could control of the Senate in 2014 be decided by illegal votes cast by non-citizens? Some argue that incidents of voting by non-citizens are so rare as to be inconsequential, with efforts to block fraud a screen for an agenda to prevent poor and minority voters from exercising the franchise, while others define such incidents as a threat to democracy itself. Both sides depend more heavily on anecdotes than data.

In a forthcoming article in the journal Electoral Studies, we bring real data from big social science survey datasets to bear on the question of whether, to what extent, and for whom non-citizens vote in U.S. elections. Most non-citizens do not register, let alone vote. But enough do that their participation can change the outcome of close races.

Our data comes from the Cooperative Congressional Election Study (CCES). Its large number of observations (32,800 in 2008 and 55,400 in 2010) provide sufficient samples of the non-immigrant sub-population, with 339 non-citizen respondents in 2008 and 489 in 2010. For the 2008 CCES, we also attempted to match respondents to voter files so that we could verify whether they actually voted.

How many non-citizens participate in U.S. elections? More than 14 percent of non-citizens in both the 2008 and 2010 samples indicated that they were registered to vote. Furthermore, some of these non-citizens voted. Our best guess, based upon extrapolations from the portion of the sample with a verified vote, is that 6.4 percent of non-citizens voted in 2008 and 2.2 percent of non-citizens voted in 2010.
Estimated Voter Turnout by Non-Citizens
2008 2010
Self reported and/or verified 38 (11.3%) 13 (3.5%)
Self reported and verified 5 (1.5%) N.A.
Adjusted estimate 21 (6.4%) 8 (2.2%)

Because non-citizens tended to favor Democrats (Obama won more than 80 percent of the votes of non-citizens in the 2008 CCES sample), we find that this participation was large enough to plausibly account for Democratic victories in a few close elections. Non-citizen votes could have given Senate Democrats the pivotal 60th vote needed to overcome filibusters in order to pass health-care reform and other Obama administration priorities in the 111th Congress. Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) won election in 2008 with a victory margin of 312 votes. Votes cast by just 0.65 percent of Minnesota non-citizens could account for this margin. It is also possible that non-citizen votes were responsible for Obama’s 2008 victory in North Carolina. Obama won the state by 14,177 votes, so a turnout by 5.1 percent of North Carolina’s adult non-citizens would have provided this victory margin.

We also find that one of the favorite policies advocated by conservatives to prevent voter fraud appears strikingly ineffective. Nearly three quarters of the non-citizens who indicated they were asked to provide photo identification at the polls claimed to have subsequently voted.

link


TL;DR: Voter ID laws are racist, and do nothing to actually combat voter fraud, since fraud votes were actually cast by those registered illegally, many of which showed ID anyhow.

Remember, kiddies: Vote Democrat, Vote Early and Vote Often.

I mean, it's just an ID card.

No, it's a way to suppress actual voters ( mostly minority voters ) without actually doing anything about the problem of ineligible persons voting.

As a gay guy growing up in the inner city, I don't see the problem. Seems pretty clever to me.

[Lady Vizsla]

Ugh politics.

[Notorious Sailor Uranus]

I don't get what the big deal is with getting an ID card. I don't drive and I have an ID. It's pretty easy to get one you just need a social security number and fill out the form. Don't dumb down the elections because people can't get an ID. Elections do take passports too...

[Ratttking]

Notorious Sailor Uranus

I don't get what the big deal is with getting an ID card. I don't drive and I have an ID. It's pretty easy to get one you just need a social security number and fill out the form. Don't dumb down the elections because people can't get an ID. Elections do take passports too...

Except that in some places you can get a state ID (not a driver's license) without having a SS#.

[Morbid Gnome]

Notorious Sailor Uranus

I don't get what the big deal is with getting an ID card. I don't drive and I have an ID. It's pretty easy to get one you just need a social security number and fill out the form. Don't dumb down the elections because people can't get an ID. Elections do take passports too...

Some places don't require an SSN for an ID. And in some places you need more than just an SSN to get an ID. Sometimes you need other government documents that are difficult/impossible to get. If you can't get the supporting documents, you can't get the ID, and can't exercise your right to vote. Been voting for over 50 years but can't manage to get all your documents in order? Well, "we can't be sure" you're actually supposed to be voting, so no voting for you!