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 Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:53 am
 God in the OT set aside the Sabbath as the day His people should worship. God rested on the 7th day and commanded men to do likewise. The Jews observed the Sabbath from Friday 6 pm to Saturday 6 pm. Nothing in the NT explicitly teaches that any change was to occur. Why then do most Christians worship on Sundays? Is this right or wrong? Does it really make a difference which day we choose? Considering that the Sabbath is part of the 10 Commandments, should we not observe it?
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Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:05 am
We should observe it. Jesus is LORD of the Sabbath, as He said. It is under the greatest commandment of loving God.
I think the LORD is more interested in our keeping it as the principle applies, and less on what day it is. The Sabbath is for our benefit. The teachers of religious law got hung up on details and legalism.
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:18 am
I think Christians should make every effort to observe the Sabbath.
That being said, not working on Sunday (or Saturday as the case may be; some Christian denominations observe the Sabbath on Saturday) isn't always an option for many people. We may not be of this world, but we still do have to live in it, and after going to church or engaging in whatever form of worship you may do, many people do have to work in order to support not just themselves, but their families. As a musician, weekends are often when I have the most work. Playing for weddings or fancy parties or fundraisers, the vast majority of which take place on Saturday and Sunday, makes up a substantial part of my income, and I really can't afford to turn down that work if I want to continue such luxuries such as sleeping indoors and eating. Actually, providing music for church services is another thing I do fairly frequently.
I would love to have one day a week where I could truly just rest and worship, but it's just not realistically possible for me, just as it isn't for many others. I hope and pray that God understands this. I think He does.
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:13 pm
I heard it was moved to sunday because they believed it was holier than saturday because Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday. Not so sure about that though.
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:34 pm
Surprised that no one has actually brought verses to the table on the matter...but here's what I believe based upon Scripture...a couple of things.
[Counter] A: First off, the command to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength is not directly followed by the commandment to observe the Sabbath Day, nor is such an idea expressed anywhere in Scripture. Jesus explicitly says in Mark 12:31 that the second greatest commandment is to love our neighbors as ourselves.
B: It does not really matter when the Sabbath would be observed. God cares about our sincere worship and devotion to Him more than "religious action." Is it good to observe? Yes... Is it absolutely mandatory less we all be judged severely? No... Colossians 2:16-19 --> Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. There were other things that God gave instructions about, such as the mentioned New Moon Festival, brought up in the Old Testament...starting somewhere in Numbers, I believe (see chapter 10). Yet you do not see us following that ordinance today. Just as Paul says, the reality is found in Christ. Mark 2:27 - Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." If someone is unable to observe the Sabbath, God is not going to kill them (speaking hyperbolically). He knows our hearts and He is concerned about our seeking and loving Him. Relaxing on a day? He's not enraged when we don't...especially if we can use that day to spread the gospel as we were commanded. Worshiping Him? Well, shouldn't we worship Him everyday? Since we can spend time in other things and in enjoyment, shouldn't we enjoy worshiping our Lord and Savior daily? Moreover, as Jimmy Needham says in one of his songs, "Worship is more than a song." ("Clear the Stage") In addition: Matthew 15:7-9 --> "You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' " Long essay short, God is concerned about our intimacy with Him, not how we observe a day. Granted: Hebrews 10:25 - Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another - and all the more as you see the Day approaching. Meeting together to worship God and everything is important. Nonetheless, He knows our hearts and responsibilities (which of course include Him at maximum priority). Some people have to work for a living...but if they're serving God...if they're spending time with Him...if they are finding times of encouragement with other believers...if they're advancing the Kingdom then they are doing their job.
So yeah...Sabbath...When? Doesn't matter. Mandatory? Not necessarily, though beneficial to man.
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Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:38 pm
On_Fire_4_CHRIST Surprised that no one has actually brought verses to the table on the matter...but here's what I believe based upon Scripture...a couple of things. [Counter] A: First off, the command to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength is not directly followed by the commandment to observe the Sabbath Day, nor is such an idea expressed anywhere in Scripture. Jesus explicitly says in Mark 12:31 that the second greatest commandment is to love our neighbors as ourselves. B: It does not really matter when the Sabbath would be observed. God cares about our sincere worship and devotion to Him more than "religious action." Is it good to observe? Yes... Is it absolutely mandatory less we all be judged severely? No... Colossians 2:16-19 --> Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. There were other things that God gave instructions about, such as the mentioned New Moon Festival, brought up in the Old Testament...starting somewhere in Numbers, I believe (see chapter 10). Yet you do not see us following that ordinance today. Just as Paul says, the reality is found in Christ. Mark 2:27 - Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." If someone is unable to observe the Sabbath, God is not going to kill them (speaking hyperbolically). He knows our hearts and He is concerned about our seeking and loving Him. Relaxing on a day? He's not enraged when we don't...especially if we can use that day to spread the gospel as we were commanded. Worshiping Him? Well, shouldn't we worship Him everyday? Since we can spend time in other things and in enjoyment, shouldn't we enjoy worshiping our Lord and Savior daily? Moreover, as Jimmy Needham says in one of his songs, "Worship is more than a song." ("Clear the Stage") In addition: Matthew 15:7-9 --> "You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' " Long essay short, God is concerned about our intimacy with Him, not how we observe a day. Granted: Hebrews 10:25 - Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another - and all the more as you see the Day approaching. Meeting together to worship God and everything is important. Nonetheless, He knows our hearts and responsibilities (which of course include Him at maximum priority). Some people have to work for a living...but if they're serving God...if they're spending time with Him...if they are finding times of encouragement with other believers...if they're advancing the Kingdom then they are doing their job. So yeah...Sabbath...When? Doesn't matter. Mandatory? Not necessarily, though beneficial to man.
I didn't say that the first greatest commandment was followed by a command to observe the Sabbath. I said that observing the Sabbath and keeping it holy was PART of the first commandment, which is to love God. That's what I meant when I said "under". The second is to love neighbors as yourself. I know this.
These two commandments summarize the Ten Commandments. The first four commandments are the commandments that fall under "love the LORD" and the last six commandments are the commandments that fall under "love one another". You can check the Ten Commandments and see that this is the order in which they appear.
I think that the Sabbath is mandatory. Indeed, I agree with what Paul says about judgment regarding the celebration of a Sabbath day. But that doesn't have to mean that the Sabbath isn't necessary. It could easily mean that people shouldn't get hung up on the nitty gritty of the Sabbath day, as the religious teachers did in the days of Jesus. As in, it's not wrong to perform a good deed on the Sabbath day even if it is considered "work".
God blessed the seventh day and made it holy (Gen. 2:2-3). The Sabbath wasn't just some covenantal thing with Israel. It was established before the covenant with Abraham (and by extension Israel) was ever made.
So perhaps we should, in fact, even celebrate it on the seventh day of the week. This would be Saturday. Maybe I will amend my statement about it not mattering which day it is observed. Hmm...
The day was holy and set apart by God at the end of creation. That means something very important and we cannot dismiss it.
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Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:34 am
A Muslim believes that God is unlike anything we can imagine. No one can look at him and live. He never tires. He is All-Knowing, All-Seeing, All-Powerful, Perfect. All he needs do is decree a matter and it will be. Yet the language of the current Bible never fails to picture even God himself in undignified terms:
God goes for a stroll:
Genesis 3:8 "And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden."
God can not find Adam (not all-knowing):
Genesis 3:9-10 "And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where are you? And he said, I heard your voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself."(from God?)
God does not know if Adam ate from the tree or not (not all-knowing):
Genesis 3:11 "And he (God) said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?"
Before looking for hidden meanings for the above verses, we should consider the following:
1) If you were to give your child total, unconstrained freedom to do whatever he wants in your house, you only ask him "don't play with my stereo." If he then goes ahead anyway and proceeds to dismantle it into fifty different pieces. If you know for a fact that he did it and you know exactly where he has hidden himself (maybe you had a hidden camera somewhere), would you walk all over the house calling out "Where are you my son?," "come out, come out wherever you are"?, or would you storm up to the place where he was hiding, pull him out by his ears, and punish him severely?
2) If you did not know where he was hiding, but knew what he had done without a doubt, would you, once you had found him, ask him: "why are you hiding? Did you break my stereo?" It is important to first attempt to think logically before looking for abstract meanings.
God becomes tired and needs to be refreshed:
Exodus 31:17 "It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed."
Notice that the verse does not claim that God Almighty "abstained from work," but rather that He "rested." This implies that it is possible for God Almighty to experience fatigue and that He is not All-Mighty and All-Powerful since He sometimes needs to be "refreshed."
God is not cognizant and/or is not eternally aware (not all knowing, all seeing, attentive and aware):
Psalms 44:23 "Awake, why sleepest thou, O Lord? arise, cast us not off for ever."
When God finally becomes cognizant attentive and aware, He acts like a drunkard:
Psalms 78:65 "Then the LORD awaked as one out of sleep, and like a mighty man that shouteth by reason of wine."
The above verses are responded to by the Almighty in the noble Qur'an as follows:
"And verily We (God) did create the heavens and the earth in six days and no fatigue touched Us."
The noble Qur'an, Qaf(50):38
"Allah! there is no god but He, the Living, the Sustainer and Protector. Neither slumber nor sleep overtake Him. His are all things in the heavens and the earth. Who can intercede in His presence except as He permits? He knows what is before and behind them. Nor do they encompass aught of His knowledge except as He wills. His throne does extend over the heavens and the earth and He feels no fatigue in preserving them. For He is the Most High, the Supreme."
The noble Qur'an, Al-Baqarah(2):255
Jacob wrestles with God. God can not win against Jacob. Jacob sees God face to face:
"And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."
Genesis 32:24-30
Many people claim the Jacob wrestled with an angel. Does this sound like he wrestled with an angel? Did Jacob (pbuh) say "I have seen the angel of God"? Did he say "I have seen the light of God" or some other statement that might have had an abstract meaning? No! He said "I have seen God" and just so that there would be no doubt in anyone's mind he added the words "face to face." If Jacob (pbuh) had wrestled with an angel, then why would he need to say "my life is preserved"? Do people who see angels die? (Numbers 22:31, 2 Samuel 24:17, 1 Chronicles 21:16, ...etc.). If Jacob had seen the face of an angel then why would he name the place "the face of God"(peni-el), and not "the face of the angel"(peni-malak)? Indeed, this is how the great St. Augustine and many others understood this verse. This brings up another question. How do we reconcile this with point 25 in the table of section 2.2 (regarding seeing God)?
We are beaten over the head four times with the fact that a human (Jacob, peace be upon him) managed to out-wrestle God Almighty, but the translators realizing the fallacy of this concoction continually try to reinterpret this verse and make excuses for it. Notice how we are beaten over the head not once, but four times with the fact that this was GOD who was beaten by Jacob:
1) "I have seen GOD."
2) "FACE to FACE."
3) "And my life is preserved."
4) They called the place "Peniel" ("FACE OF GOD").
Are we now to believe that God wrestled with Jacob all night, He resorted to hitting Jacob (pbuh) below the belt, and in the end was still bested by Jacob ("I will not let thee go, except thou bless me")? When someone has you in a headlock and tells you: "do as I tell you," is he victorious or not?
God forbid! High exalted is He! Illustrious! Mighty! Magnificent! All-Powerful! Neither Moses nor Jacob would ever make such a claim. Nor would the other prophets of God. The great and noble prophets would never dare to claim that God had been reduced to a punching bag to further their own egos. Notice how we are encouraged to believe that it is not sufficient to humbly prostrate oneself before God, bowing down and beseeching Him for His favors in earnest prayer and in all submission. Rather it is necessary to slap Him silly and beat Him into the ground then force Him to bless the victor. Is this not preposterous? Does this not reek of tampering fingers? May God Almighty forgive me for even repeating these words.
God regrets his actions, God can not see the future, God can not change the past:
Genesis 6:6 "And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."
It is not possible to regret doing something unless the result of this action was something bad that had not been foreseen and can not be changed. In Webster's New Dictionary (1990), the word "repent" is defined as follows: to regret, sorrow for, to wish to have been otherwise what one has done or left undone.
Thus, God is claimed to be:
1) Unable to see the future: If I know for a certainty that performing "action" will result in "result," then when "result" comes about I will not regret it unless I was forced in the first place to perform "action." There is a difference between "disliking" something and "regretting" something.
2) Unable to change the past if he wanted to: As per the above Webster's definition, to repent is to "wish to have been otherwise what one has done or left undone." But if God is capable of doing all things, as a Muslim believes, then he does not need to "wish." He simply decrees it and it is.
Also notice that God is not merely claimed to have regretted this action, but to have "grieved at His heart." Webster's defines grief as: Deep sorrow caused by loss, distress. So according to this passage, God felt the deepest sorrow from the bottom of his heart. If one of us felt this kind of torment and was given the means to change matters, would we hesitate? God is not this helpless!
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Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:57 am
@Khalid Ibn Walid: the contradictions fall away once you understand that God is capable of manifesting as a human—in appearance or otherwise—to interact with his creations. "Repentance" isn't just a feeling of regret but taking action to undo the wrong. Humans spoiled themselves. So, he sent the flood to eliminate the corruption and started again with a righteous remnant. You think he likes destroying his creations? Of course he would be grieved even with foreknowledge of what would happen. As for the OP, short answer: yes. Scarlet Teardrops touched upon some reasons which I share. What really convinced me was the example left behind by the church in the Book of Acts (note: this is after the atonement sacrifice and ascension). More importantly, I also want to follow Jesus'/Yeshua's example, following what he instructed. Sabbath is for rejuvenation, rest, saving, and learning/teaching. Scripture that convinced me: Matthew 12:11-12; John 9:14; Mark 3:1-5, 6:2; Luke 4:16, 4:31, 6:6, 13:10; Acts 13:42, 44; Exodus 20:8-11
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Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:11 pm
Scarlet_Teardrops On_Fire_4_CHRIST Surprised that no one has actually brought verses to the table on the matter...but here's what I believe based upon Scripture...a couple of things. [Counter] A: First off, the command to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength is not directly followed by the commandment to observe the Sabbath Day, nor is such an idea expressed anywhere in Scripture. Jesus explicitly says in Mark 12:31 that the second greatest commandment is to love our neighbors as ourselves. B: It does not really matter when the Sabbath would be observed. God cares about our sincere worship and devotion to Him more than "religious action." Is it good to observe? Yes... Is it absolutely mandatory less we all be judged severely? No... Colossians 2:16-19 --> Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. There were other things that God gave instructions about, such as the mentioned New Moon Festival, brought up in the Old Testament...starting somewhere in Numbers, I believe (see chapter 10). Yet you do not see us following that ordinance today. Just as Paul says, the reality is found in Christ. Mark 2:27 - Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." If someone is unable to observe the Sabbath, God is not going to kill them (speaking hyperbolically). He knows our hearts and He is concerned about our seeking and loving Him. Relaxing on a day? He's not enraged when we don't...especially if we can use that day to spread the gospel as we were commanded. Worshiping Him? Well, shouldn't we worship Him everyday? Since we can spend time in other things and in enjoyment, shouldn't we enjoy worshiping our Lord and Savior daily? Moreover, as Jimmy Needham says in one of his songs, "Worship is more than a song." ("Clear the Stage") In addition: Matthew 15:7-9 --> "You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' " Long essay short, God is concerned about our intimacy with Him, not how we observe a day. Granted: Hebrews 10:25 - Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another - and all the more as you see the Day approaching. Meeting together to worship God and everything is important. Nonetheless, He knows our hearts and responsibilities (which of course include Him at maximum priority). Some people have to work for a living...but if they're serving God...if they're spending time with Him...if they are finding times of encouragement with other believers...if they're advancing the Kingdom then they are doing their job. So yeah...Sabbath...When? Doesn't matter. Mandatory? Not necessarily, though beneficial to man.
I didn't say that the first greatest commandment was followed by a command to observe the Sabbath. I said that observing the Sabbath and keeping it holy was PART of the first commandment, which is to love God. That's what I meant when I said "under". The second is to love neighbors as yourself. I know this.
These two commandments summarize the Ten Commandments. The first four commandments are the commandments that fall under "love the LORD" and the last six commandments are the commandments that fall under "love one another". You can check the Ten Commandments and see that this is the order in which they appear.
I think that the Sabbath is mandatory. Indeed, I agree with what Paul says about judgment regarding the celebration of a Sabbath day. But that doesn't have to mean that the Sabbath isn't necessary. It could easily mean that people shouldn't get hung up on the nitty gritty of the Sabbath day, as the religious teachers did in the days of Jesus. As in, it's not wrong to perform a good deed on the Sabbath day even if it is considered "work".
God blessed the seventh day and made it holy (Gen. 2:2-3). The Sabbath wasn't just some covenantal thing with Israel. It was established before the covenant with Abraham (and by extension Israel) was ever made.
So perhaps we should, in fact, even celebrate it on the seventh day of the week. This would be Saturday. Maybe I will amend my statement about it not mattering which day it is observed. Hmm...
The day was holy and set apart by God at the end of creation. That means something very important and we cannot dismiss it.
My apologies for misinterpreting your words. Still can't help but think that it doesn't matter immensely. The thing that gets me most is "not man for the Sabbath." Meaning, "It's not just another one of those rules which you people will be under." I still look to the covenant deal. Besides the obvious meaning of the Ten Commandments, a good few had restrictions added on to them, expressing the original intent. As for the Sabbath, there was "It's okay to do good on the Sabbath" and "the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." The Sabbath is for enjoyment... Nothing wrong with getting together and worshiping, but there's also nothing wrong with other things. Now if someone has the opportunity to go, then they should. Inability because of support, however, is another thing. As for the when...can't say yes to that. If I'll shift anywhere, it won't be in the "when" section. I believe that God is concerned with the heart...that's what He's after, not just following "religious action." And one must be careful not to mix the two. However, it is possible. And one who is in that deep relationship can seek the religious. However, if someone observes the Sabbath with total apathy and lack of concern, then I'm sure that would be of no good. But that's my opinion. If something were more blatant in Scripture, then I could accept. However, the NT leads me to other ends, not that the OT is totally useless (Romans 15:4).
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:28 am
@ Khalid Ibn Walid
“Do you really think God could not find Adam?” “Do you really think God did not know where Adam was?” God knew exactly where Adam was, the problem was that God wanted Adam to realize where Adam was.
"Then the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, 'Where are you?'"
The context of this verse is immediately after Adam had sinned. "And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9Then the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?" 10And he said, "I heard the sound of Thee in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself," (Gen. 3:8-10). Does this mean that God didn't know something? Not at all. Someone can easily ask a question to which they know the answer. Usually, the reason to do that is to point something out or teach something. Obviously, Adam and Eve had sinned. God asked, "Adam, where are you?" Where was Adam? He was hiding from God. Adam's sin had destroyed his fellowship with the Lord. God knew this and He was pointing it out to Adam. It is a question we need to ask of ourselves. Where am I? Am I in fellowship with God or in rebellion against Him?
God getting tired?
Is. 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary?
Pretty clear, but the Skeptics have a few in reply. Let's first note the words: "fainteth" is ya'aph, while "weary" is yaga. Now then:
Exodus 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
A need for rest? No -- "rested" simply means "desisted from exertion", i.e., stopped what one was doing. The Hebrew word for "rest" (shabath) is used in the context of something ceasing or lacking, or in the sense of celebration (see Lev. 2:13; 23:32; the Greek in Heb. 4:4 has similar meaning.)
freshed" literally means "breathed" -- this word is used only 3 times in the OT, once in reference to people on the Sabbath (Ex. 23:12) and once at 2 Sam. 16:14, "And the king, and all the people that were with him, came weary, and refreshed themselves there."
Does it mean one needs a nap? Only if the context demands it, as in the latter case. The word actually suggests more of a sense of satisfaction as derived from a cooling air, as is appropos for the seventh day (Gen. 1:31, And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. -- an evaluation of what was before it.) If tiredness was what was at issue, a better word would have been ravach, or "breathe freely."
Is. 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
Even by itself, it's hard to see how this would give any idea that God was physically tired, and the word bears it out: it is la'ah, meaning disgusted. (This word is also used in Jer. 15:6.)
Harder is this one:
Is. 43:24 Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities.
This time it is yaga, but there's a poetic point to make, though not what Skeptics might expect.
This is made in counter-point to Is. 43:23, "Thou hast not brought me the small cattle of thy burnt offerings; neither hast thou honoured me with thy sacrifices. I have not caused thee to serve with an offering, nor wearied thee with incense." 43:24 is a rhetorical hyperbole, making the point that none of God's demands upon the people were the sort to wear them out, and God counterpointing -- with heavy sarcasm -- "No, you have worn me out with your sins."
This is a powerful indictment in light of that God said in 40:28 that he does not get weary.
God and Jacob
In Genesis 32:30, Jacob saw God appearing as an angel; he did not truly see God. In our fallen human condition, if God were to fully reveal Himself to us, we would be consumed and destroyed. Therefore, God veils Himself and appears in forms in which we can “see” Him. However, this is different than seeing God with all His glory and holiness displayed. People have seen visions of God, images of God, and appearances of God, but no one has ever seen God in all His fullness (Exodus 33:20).
It could have been a representative of God;
"Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day. Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob's hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him. And He said, "Let Me go, for the day breaks." But he said, "I will not let You go unless You bless me!" So He said to him, "What is your name?" He said, "Jacob." And He said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed." Then Jacob asked, saying, "Tell me Your name, I pray." And He said, "Why is it that you ask about My name?" And He blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."" (Genesis 32:24-30).
As you can see, though asked for a name, the person declined to give one. Jacob concluded that the man he wrestled was God because he knew about his past and because he damaged his hip joint with just a touch. A passage in Hosea gives us further clues: "He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and in his strength he struggled with God. Yes, he struggled with the Angel and prevailed; he wept, and sought favor from Him. he found Him in Bethel, and there He spoke to us - that is, the LORD God of hosts. The LORD is His memorable name" (Hosea 12:3-5). Notice the parallel points: Jacob struggled with God, but he struggled with the Angel. One explanation for the parallel is that "angel" means a messenger. Thus as a representative of God, Jacob wrestled with God's representative and therefore he wrestled with God.
However, in the Genesis account, Jacob sought a blessing from the man and wanted to know the man's name. He received the blessing, but not the name. Hosea said that Jacob received the blessing, but found the name of his benefactor in Bethel. There it was revealed that the blessing came from the Lord God of hosts (Yahweh). "Then God appeared to Jacob again, when he came from Padan Aram, and blessed him. And God said to him, "Your name is Jacob; your name shall not be called Jacob anymore, but Israel shall be your name." So He called his name Israel. Also God said to him: "I am God Almighty. Be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall proceed from you, and kings shall come from your body. The land which I gave Abraham and Isaac I give to you; and to your descendants after you I give this land." Then God went up from him in the place where He talked with him. So Jacob set up a pillar in the place where He talked with him, a pillar of stone; and he poured a drink offering on it, and he poured oil on it. And Jacob called the name of the place where God spoke with him, Bethel" (Genesis 35:9-15) .
In another instance, Manoah (Samson's father) asked the Angel of the Lord the same question and received a similar answer. "And the Angel of the LORD said to Manoah, "Though you detain Me, I will not eat your food. But if you offer a burnt offering, you must offer it to the LORD." (For Manoah did not know He was the Angel of the LORD.) Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, "What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?" And the Angel of the LORD said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?"" (Judges 13:16-18 ).
Agur expressed how little he knew in Proverbs 30: "Surely I am more stupid than any man, and do not have the understanding of a man. I neither learned wisdom nor have knowledge of the Holy One. Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, If you know?" (Proverbs 30:2-4). Take note that the Old Testament hinted of God the Father and God the Son; neither of whom mankind truly knows their names.
Because of all these parallels, many scholars believe that Jacob wrestled with the being known as "the Angel of the Lord." It is possible that this is God the Son who interacted with men in the form of an angel.
Face to face is Jacobs words, his comment on what had occurred. His assessment of the situation. smile
Notice how the man refused to answer his questions.
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:40 pm
Sorry for getting off topic with you Christians
This is about the Sabbath
Here is what the Quran says about the Sabbath
"O ye People of the Book! believe in what We have (now) revealed, confirming what was (already) with you, before We change the face and fame of some (of you) beyond all recognition, and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of God Must be carried out. (The Noble Quran, 4:47)"
"And for their covenant we raised over them (the towering height) of Mount (Sinai); and (on another occasion) we said: "Enter the gate with humility"; and (once again) we commanded them: "Transgress not in the matter of the sabbath." And we took from them a solemn covenant. (The Noble Quran, 4:154)"
"Ask them concerning the town standing close by the sea. Behold! they transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath. For on the day of their Sabbath their fish did come to them, openly holding up their heads, but on the day they had no Sabbath, they came not: thus did We make a trial of them, for they were given to transgression. (The Noble Quran, 7:163)"
"The Sabbath was only made (strict) for those who disagreed (as to its observance); But God will judge between them on the Day of Judgment, as to their differences. (The Noble Quran, 16:124)"
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