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 Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:28 pm
This is what I'm talking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spivak_pronounPrevious to this morning, I'd only ever hit on some of the 'mixed' gender neutral pronouns, which I dislike using- they seem forced to me. Imagine my surprise that "hir" and "shi" are not only well-documented words, but just two of about a hundred (poke around in the link, I'm not kidding) alternatives suggested. Of all the ones I've read over, I like the new-type Spivaks the best. And I certainly could use them. Not just to be edgy, mind you. I have characters that I argue with myself as to what pronoun to use! As in, I can't even get the editor involved because that would just make things worse XD. I'm mostly talking about the narrator using them, by the way.
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Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:12 am
Wow. That sure is... new.
I'm unsure whether I'd use Spivak pronouns or not, although if I did, I'd make damn sure my audience was aware that such an alternative pronoun actually existed. If I'd read a book with Spivak pronouns in it before I read the article, I think I'd be extremely confused. Or think that the author was trying to pull off a truly bad accent.
I don't necessarily dislike the new pronouns, but I'm not crazy about them, either.
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Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:08 pm
"em" is indicative of "'em". The only thing standing between related chaos is an apostrophe, and goodness, I hate apostrophes. Little bastards. Always popping up where they don't belong.
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:14 am
This is the first time I've ever heard of it, but I think it might be useful to me when I introduce my new character Serkai into my stories. Serkai is an androgynous vampire, and no-one knows if Serkai is a man or a woman. It would be much easier for me to write "Serkai put the dagger away. E knew e wouldn't need it." rather than "Serkai put the dagger away, knowing it wouldn't be needed." OK, it might be annoying to some of the readers, but it would also be tricky for me to keep bending the language into knots to avoid pronouns that would reveal Serkai's gender. razz
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Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:19 pm
Cool! If you feel comfortable doing so, please post an excerpt so we can admire your lovely Spivaks!
I think it's pretty daring to up and use them for a major character. I've decided to try them with some minor ones first ^^.
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Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:24 pm
I like the idea of these pronouns, though right now I wouldn't use them for any more than one or perhaps two minor characters. And the only way they would use them would be if they were present throughout a significant portion of the book. It would be good to get readers accustomed to it, but very much would turn them away too easily I think.
And it'd be great to see an example of their use.
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Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:42 pm
Here's a recent post from my journal where I used Spivak's...
Edit: what with all of this Orson Scott Card wankery, I SO want to read Ender's Game. It can't be as bad as I'm thinking it is.
It seems to me that if one found value in the books to begin with, the discovery of the author's homophobia shouldn't necessarily invalidate that value. It might invalidate the books' value, but I personally think a careful consideration of the question would be in order.
^ From a Comment on Box Turtle Bulletin.
You've got to be ******** kidding me. If an author turns out to be a raving loon who thinks who puts what into what orifice is any of eir's business, ey deserve to be spat on an mocked in person and by proxy via eir writing. Failing eir actual personage, graves will suffice.
I like the way it looks. It seems very natural, though I am still trying to get my brain around what word goes with which function. Obviously, there is a need in english for these words, and they're NOT going to get used if we don't use them. smile
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Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:55 am
The only thing about Spivak pronouns is that they sound a bit lika ghetto talk.
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Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:20 pm
I tried using these in a passage just to see how they looked.
They're easier to read than they are to put in, let me tell you. I'll let everyone know how badly my editor beats me when she finds them biggrin .
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Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:24 pm
I don't really see the point, in most cases. To the majority of the reading audience, I'm sure this would cause people to stop taking you seriosusly.
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Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:21 pm
You know, that's a GOOD POINT. What is, this "point" of Spivak-ing it?
Do you know what a pinvise is? It's basically a teeny-tiny hand drill. You put a regular power drill bit in it, and it pretty much turns it into something you can use sans electricity. They generally only take small bits though, say 3/16 and under.
Now, most things you could do with a pinvise, you can also do with a dremel or a power drill. You wouldn't use a pinvise to predrill holes to hanging things, that would take forever. You wouldn't dig out a stripped screw with one- you'd probably break the pinvise.
But, there are a few things you can only really do well with a pinvise. Need to drill a tiny hole in ABS plastic or resin? Dig out flash and overcast from tiny channels of the same stuff? A power drill or dremel with make a mess and probably do a crappy job. Especially if you're what you're working with is fragile. You drop that drill or move the dremel too far or get carried away steadying what you're working on and POOF, you have to start over.
Spivak pronouns are like that. They prevent crappiness caused by using the wrong tools. The vast majority of writers will have zero call for them. But if you ever write about nonhhumans, fictional gender constructs, or even genderqueer people in recognizable earth-based societies; if you're just trying to be more equitable the gender spectrum than English is by default, my goodness, you could probably use a pinvise! I mean Spivak pronoun.
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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:36 pm
I have this roleplay called All Flesh Must Be Eaten, and they, in order to avoid writing the entire book in one gender, or using "they" improperly, wrote every other chapter with instructions in the opposite gender. If Spivak was more integrated into our language, it would have been really useful for this kind of thing in particular.
As for all this negativity about not being taken seriously, I completely disagree. And I don't think it sounds like "ghetto talk" either. I'm pretty dyslexic, and so it's hard for me to read new words right off the bat, and these are kind of uncomfortable for me to read still, but I think that as soon as people are brave and creative enough to START using them, then it won't be so alarming to see them printed any longer.
Personally, I love the idea of sexless pronouns, because I think too much emphasis is placed on gender in this culture anyway. I've been wishing for this for a while!
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Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:23 pm
I'm all for singular "they", but DAMN it can get confusing. Err, apparently.
To me, Spivak's sound kind of Gaelic or Welsh. I'm just oddly amused that they're easier to understand than use! Maybe it's just me...
I don't think the world is QUITE ready for a main character being referred to with Spivaks. I think it would be easier to get people used t hearing them by employing them in dialog and around minor characters. At least for publishable material. If I was posting on the internet, I'd go nuts.
Anyway, stuff doesn't get used unless you use it. Bottom line XD.
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Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:20 pm
Eh.
Call me a Traditionalist, but I don't really like them. I know if I came across something like that, then I'd be incredibly confused and just lose myself. Maybe I'm just being a big baby, but I won't be using them. Not that they would stop me from reading something else, but, I guess I just have some kind of dislike of change. .__.
No, I think I'll pass thank you. X3
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Psychotic Maniacal Sanity Crew
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Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:05 pm
Oh, don't mind me while I revive an totally deceased-beyond-belief thread~!
I brought these Spivak pronouns up in my English class, and received blank stairs from all around, including my teacher. After explaining their purpose, one girl said "Oh, that actually makes sense."
Perhaps theres hope for them yet!
Or em.
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