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 Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 2:22 pm
Eaten By Cheese Zher Ruler of all Cheese Zher What I got out of this is that I cannot change his beliefs and his is doomed to go to hell, I will not believe that. If that is not what you meant, my apologies. No, no. You see, I think he needs to find his own way--and if you still would like to convert him yourself, you should find a way to do so other than arguments. (Btw, this is Eaten By Cheese-this is just my main account.) He hates Christians, what they believe and their stupidity of believing that. His own way is going to hell. Unless God reaches out to him. And what else is there to do than argue??? Hm. Yes. I definitely see a problem there. Does he think he's going to hell? If he truly believes in hell itself, there's a chance he can be convinced to believe in heaven as well, and God. I think he has a right to be atheist, but not to be biased against Christians. Everyone should be entitled to their own beliefs, and just because someone's Christian doesn't make them gullible, ect., as he may think. Try to get him to realize that this is steriotyping--people should be jdged by who they are, not by a single belief they hold. After all, you're Christian and he gets along with you!
As for the other matter, I suggest asking him if he'd like to come to church with you once--he doesn't have to look at it as a religious experience, just as a look at what being Christian is like. Perhaps you could have him meet other Christians. Help him to see, slowly, that Christianity is not the terrible thing he thinks it is. If you gradually immerse him in the world of Christianity, rather than attempting to thrust him into it headfirst, it'll be much easier on both of you. No, he doesn't believe there is hell.
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 2:25 pm
Sarcastic_Angel Zher ryoushinn Sarcastic_Angel if he's into heavy metal, try getting him to listen to a Christian heavy metal band. Though I don't listen to metal myself, my brother found a band I believe is called Disciple. you might want to try them, or look up other bands that are similar. This way he'll get the music he wants, but the message of God at the same time. And just let him see God through you. stay calm in a difficult situation that most people would be crying in, or if he's complaining about parents, or homework, or this or that, casually mention how God helped you through your hard times. Hint at why you are the way you are, and then let him come to you asking questions about God. That's usually the best way to evangilize. Yes, Disciple is a good band for someone who likes hard rock and metal. And i feel your stress...i had the same problem as well. I influenced and told her of God, now i just have to let her make her decision. Though i will keep reminding her of God. I looked up Disciple on youtube, and thats more punk/rock. Isnt really the thing he is into, Lordi and Flyleaf (not really flyleaf much anymore) are the two mellowist bands he likes. Thanks for the suggestion, but he wouldnt care for it. I'm not very good at it, but I'll ask my brother to look up christian metal bands, and see if he comes up with anything. If he does, I'll post them here. But to start off, after listening to Lordi, he suggests Demon Hunter. Alright, thanks a ton!
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 2:30 pm
Ky-Kiske101 Zher So, my friend does not believe in God. He says he doesnt exist and I will eat my words. He is a metal head that loves heavy metal, along with his brother. Such as cannibal Corpse, Bloodgasm, Marlyn Manson, and others... He thinks i am an idiot that will eat my words for believing in Christ. We argue, and nobody will win. I am determined to turn him Christian, and he is determined to make me not believe in a God that doesn't exist (to his belief). I have just about given up... What do I do? And please pray for him.
You are taking to wrong approuch....Obviously you care for the state of his soul, and thats awosme, but No one is saved unless the Spirit draws...Spend FAR less time arguing about the faith, and FAR more time being a loving, caring and compasionate friend. Don't tell him about Christianity, SHOW HIM...After all, Lighthouses don't make noise, they just Guide.
He looks up to people that cause havoc (i.e not me). Plus he thinks i am an exception to the "common Christian." So I dont know what to do. sweatdrop
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:54 pm
luckily i dont have to deal with that stuff because basically everybody i know is Christian heart
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Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:23 pm
Zher Eaten By Cheese Zher Ruler of all Cheese Zher What I got out of this is that I cannot change his beliefs and his is doomed to go to hell, I will not believe that. If that is not what you meant, my apologies. No, no. You see, I think he needs to find his own way--and if you still would like to convert him yourself, you should find a way to do so other than arguments. (Btw, this is Eaten By Cheese-this is just my main account.) He hates Christians, what they believe and their stupidity of believing that. His own way is going to hell. Unless God reaches out to him. And what else is there to do than argue??? Hm. Yes. I definitely see a problem there. Does he think he's going to hell? If he truly believes in hell itself, there's a chance he can be convinced to believe in heaven as well, and God. I think he has a right to be atheist, but not to be biased against Christians. Everyone should be entitled to their own beliefs, and just because someone's Christian doesn't make them gullible, ect., as he may think. Try to get him to realize that this is steriotyping--people should be jdged by who they are, not by a single belief they hold. After all, you're Christian and he gets along with you!
As for the other matter, I suggest asking him if he'd like to come to church with you once--he doesn't have to look at it as a religious experience, just as a look at what being Christian is like. Perhaps you could have him meet other Christians. Help him to see, slowly, that Christianity is not the terrible thing he thinks it is. If you gradually immerse him in the world of Christianity, rather than attempting to thrust him into it headfirst, it'll be much easier on both of you. No, he doesn't believe there is hell. Neither do I. I'm atheist.
I do not find the existence of hell likely. Am I saying it's impossible? No. I'm just saying the chance seems slim. But the point of this is that it's having an open mind that prevents bias.
You could inform him that an atheist is someone who tries to live their life as best they can because it's the right thing to do, not because of a god or that they'll go to hell if they don't. They try to leave behind a world that is better for their presence. His closed mind about religion is the kind of thing that has the opposite effect. Someone's religious beliefs generally do not define who they are. It's his inability to grasp this that truly has my worry.
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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:26 pm
Zher ryoushinn Sarcastic_Angel if he's into heavy metal, try getting him to listen to a Christian heavy metal band. Though I don't listen to metal myself, my brother found a band I believe is called Disciple. you might want to try them, or look up other bands that are similar. This way he'll get the music he wants, but the message of God at the same time. And just let him see God through you. stay calm in a difficult situation that most people would be crying in, or if he's complaining about parents, or homework, or this or that, casually mention how God helped you through your hard times. Hint at why you are the way you are, and then let him come to you asking questions about God. That's usually the best way to evangilize. Yes, Disciple is a good band for someone who likes hard rock and metal. And i feel your stress...i had the same problem as well. I influenced and told her of God, now i just have to let her make her decision. Though i will keep reminding her of God. I looked up Disciple on youtube, and thats more punk/rock. Isnt really the thing he is into, Lordi and Flyleaf (not really flyleaf much anymore) are the two mellowist bands he likes. Thanks for the suggestion, but he wouldnt care for it. If he doesn't like Disciple, which I think is a great christian rock band, maybe you should try out Norma Jean. They more metal than Disciple is. And I'm sure there's a list or something of Christian Metal Bands on Wikipedia. lol I really hope you get a break through with him. That would be awesome! I'll pray for God to give you the right things to say whenever you are talking to him about God and Religion, if thats ok with you?
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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:15 pm
People are probably going to bark at me for this but DON'T pray for him to be saved.
He is already damned and not by choice. He is what God made him as. He is of natural man.
1 Cor 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
He is predestined to be this way. God chooses those for heaven and those for Hell before they are even born.
John 6: 44 No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except the One who is from God He has seen the Father.
47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray him.
65 And He was saying, For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to me, unless it has been granted from the Father.
66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew, and were not walking with Him anymore.
67 Jesus said therefore to the twelve, You do not want to go away also, do you?
68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
69. And we have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.
70 Jesus answered them, Did I myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?
Romans 8:28-30 and we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also PREDESTINED to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren. And whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
John 10: 27-29 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow me. and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My father, who has given them to Me, is greather than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
If doesn't matter what you teach him of the bible or of God, he can not be saved by man and God has already made his decision. And your friend sounds like he's pretty prominent of his beliefs which most likely means he is of the non chosen.
I am sorry to say and not mean to be mean or anything but you are running a fools errand and it is best to just let the matter be and never bring up the subject of God with him again. It will only bring more tension between you two.
And if he was REALLY your friend, he wouldn't be mocking you and shooting your beliefs and you're religion down. It is best probably to stay away from him too if he's going to be so uncivil.
If you want more verses I will gladly post them because there's a lot more to explain why its pointless to try to "convert" your friend.
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Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:00 am
Well, pray for him. Pray alot alot alot alot. Prayers are powerful. If you're Catholic, ask the Saints to Pray for you. Pray the Rosary daily.
If you're not, though... Pray, still. You cannot force him to do anything. Just pretend liek you're giving it up, but act the way a Christian should. Don't bring it up so obviously again unless he starts it, and then be humble about it. Actions speak louder than words. (:
But I'll pray for him. My dear friend is also an Atheist, and another is a Buddhist. But... you know. Things will look up. 4laugh heart
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Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:01 pm
SaintChaos: Hm. So you're saying that God choses who gets a free pass to heaven and who doesn't? That having to work at being good and all is totally pointless and that the 'chosen' will get to heaven no matter what, because God chose them to have it easy and made them special so it'll be easier for them to resist temptation? Or are you saying that God made it so that no matter what they do, God will forgive them for anything? =/
I mean, look at it this way. Say there's an atheist who does a ton of good in their life, donates to charity, helps people, is generous and selfless.
And then say there's a very religious Christian who kills someone. Is this Christian still more destined for heaven than the atheist? Would you really consider this Christian a 'chosen' one?
But what if you think, then if this Christian sins so much, they'll go to hell for their sins, even though they had these beliefs? Is everything about God's forgiveness just null and void? Or, perhaps, God will give forgiveness up to a point? Then where do you draw the line?
Could you explain? I don't understand it.
Nah, I'm not annoyed, or anything. =D I just don't get it, that's all! ^__^
Edit: OHMIGOSH! You're in the GAU guild! I remember seeing you around! Hey! mrgreen
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Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:30 pm
The thing is, you can argue 'till you're blue in the face. It proves nothing. Faith is faith, and if he is who you say he is, then he is stubborn in his faith.
You see, atheists have a more blind faith than Christians. While Christians have a purpose and a guideline for living, atheists do not. Look at atheism. God is man. Man is god. Man can't control the universe, but we must learn to understand it. Future generations must understand it more. And so on. Atheists have to prove their point by detesting a God in various attacks that aren't even factual. Yet, no matter how many facts you throw at them, they won't budge. The best attack on an atheist is, "If there is no God, there's no need for morality, right? So how do we judge a right and wrong? If there is no right and wrong, why do we search for it?" and things of that nature.
Atheism is a giant circle of knowledge. The problem with atheism is what it even claims itself. We are in an infinite universe, and our purpose here is to understand it. Until we can understand infinity, we cannot understand the universe.
While Christianity has one need for an answer. And it's two words. "God is." That's all you need in an argument. All you'll ever need. Why? Because they cannot argue the point. Period. They'll try to attack His nature with "witty" things such as "If God were real, then why are there so many deaths and sicknesses in the world?" and of course the answer is "God is." It can't be argued. Period. There is no argument to bring him to Christianity.
In closing, if your friend's world falls apart, my brother, he'll be faced with a choice. Either to let his faith go and find a new truth or to cling to his truth and hope that "nothingness" ends very soon... God bless... Have a good day...
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Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:34 pm
Zher Eaten By Cheese Zher So, my friend does not believe in God. He says he doesnt exist and I will eat my words. Zher He is a metal head that loves heavy metal, along with his brother. Such as cannibal Corpse, Bloodgasm, Marlyn Manson, and others... Zher He thinks i am an idiot that will eat my words for believing in Christ. Zher We argue, and nobody will win. Zher I am determined to turn him Christian, and he is determined to make me not believe in a God that doesn't exist (to his belief). Zher I have just about given up... What do I do? What I got out of this is that I cannot change his beliefs and his is doomed to go to hell, I will not believe that. If that is not what you meant, my apologies. He is actually saying to tolerate your friend's choice, which is also a bad idea.
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Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:43 pm
MiseryGates Zher ryoushinn Sarcastic_Angel if he's into heavy metal, try getting him to listen to a Christian heavy metal band. Though I don't listen to metal myself, my brother found a band I believe is called Disciple. you might want to try them, or look up other bands that are similar. This way he'll get the music he wants, but the message of God at the same time. And just let him see God through you. stay calm in a difficult situation that most people would be crying in, or if he's complaining about parents, or homework, or this or that, casually mention how God helped you through your hard times. Hint at why you are the way you are, and then let him come to you asking questions about God. That's usually the best way to evangilize. Yes, Disciple is a good band for someone who likes hard rock and metal. And i feel your stress...i had the same problem as well. I influenced and told her of God, now i just have to let her make her decision. Though i will keep reminding her of God. I looked up Disciple on youtube, and thats more punk/rock. Isnt really the thing he is into, Lordi and Flyleaf (not really flyleaf much anymore) are the two mellowist bands he likes. Thanks for the suggestion, but he wouldnt care for it. If he doesn't like Disciple, which I think is a great christian rock band, maybe you should try out Norma Jean. They more metal than Disciple is. And I'm sure there's a list or something of Christian Metal Bands on Wikipedia. lol I really hope you get a break through with him. That would be awesome! I'll pray for God to give you the right things to say whenever you are talking to him about God and Religion, if thats ok with you? NORMA JEAN IS CHRISTIAN!? that will be a band he would like. and thanks, i think i did make a breakthrough he other day
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Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:06 pm
oh wait a min, lol HEY CHEESE! biggrin okay you said that all in one big sentence so let me answer each individually. you don't' get to heaven by works. i believe thats a catholic faith is it not? and theres no scriptural evidence supporting that idea. so no doing good works is not pointless. there are verses hinting that doing good deeds will have its rewards in your life. such verses saying to the affect of "god shines his grace upon those who are kind and truthful.....who love's thy neighbor.....who are righteous and practice acts of good..." ect ect. every good act has its rewards. however doing bad acts or sinning can have many consequences, but none of which will be the soul decision of you getting to heaven or not. Eaten By Cheese because God chose them to have it easy and made them special so it'll be easier for them to resist temptation? HHAHAH OMG noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. completely wrong. in fact its quiet the opposite, like jesus, christians and jews of the like are actually treated worse than you're average day non believer. we are attacked more often and persued more often by demons. we are chastised most of the time or frowned upon for whatever reasons. actually.....we have it a LOT harder. easier to resist temptation? omg I WISH SO BADLY THAT WAS TRUE! everyone, including god's chosen are tempted just as equally as everyone else. not be taken that god tempts us. he does not. it is satan that tempts us with sin. and then the burden of sin we all share equally. we may have been chosen for heaven but that doens't negate us from being under the same crap as others. Eaten By Cheese Or are you saying that God made it so that no matter what they do, God will forgive them for anything? =/ yes and no. if you're chosen you go to heaven no matter what however just because you're chosen doesn't mean you don't suffer consequences for your actions that are chosen for sinning. we are "all" held accountable for our sins, including the chosen. there are verses speaking of the unforgivable sin, which is blasphemy against he holy spirit, however just because it is non forgivable doesn't mean you'll go to hell for it. but i need to do more research on such matter as the unforgivable sin. Eaten By Cheese I mean, look at it this way. Say there's an atheist who does a ton of good in their life, donates to charity, helps people, is generous and selfless. doesn't matter. but as the bible says, "there is no man that does good"....at least no man that does good 24. we are sinners after all and there will always be darkness in all of us. even if the person you see does good, do YOU know their thoughts? their TRUE intentions? their fleshly desires? i mean just look at most serial killers. people usually never see it coming. most serial killers or child molesters of today are you're friendly next door neighbor. time and time again ive heard stories how people speak that they never expect such and such person to do such things. so while you see the service actions, you don't know the deep thinkings of their inner mind that god WOULD have the knowledge of. our understanding of things are far beyond what god's is (in christian logic) *sighs* i was hoping to escape this subject with any members of the atheist guild we are both apart of cuz its going to give even more wrong ideas about god. the idea of predestination and why some are chosen and some are not is so CONVOLUTED that the entire subject itself ends up in a default idea. and what i mean by that is, the very reason why god made it this way not even Christians fully understand because we don't have god's knowledge yet. we will receive his knowledge of understanding once we are in heaven, but until then the bible warns "not to lean on your own understanding" because we won't be able to come up with a correct answer. there are verses hinting to why it is this way, mainly to the fact of a theory ive come up with like others have: god foreknows us. meaning he knows us before we are created. our past present future and how we would react to things and the choices we make. say he does give salvation to an atheist or one of his non chosen, what would they do with the salvation they're given? what if they completely make it worthless and do nothing with it and apostate? would they still be worthy of his salvation? (THIS IS JUST A THEORY) no verses really supporting it but i can't really think of any other reason. Eaten By Cheese And then say there's a very religious Christian who kills someone. Is this Christian still more destined for heaven than the atheist? Would you really consider this Christian a 'chosen' one? first off, due to WRONG translations of the bible, the correct translation of one of the commandments is "thou shall not MURDER"......as the bible says thers a time for peace and a time for war. we kill things all the time....bugs......animals.....people in war....if there was a commandment against general killing we'd have a problem and it would be contradictory. murder is killing, but with a malicious intent. now to go back to you're example.....its kinda vague....i see what you're getting at but it truly depends on the situation. what if it was an accident? what if they DID murder but realized their mistake and went back to a path of good? god WILL forgive, thats why he sent his son on the cross, to cleanse us of present past and FUTURE sins. the remark who's better than others, just because you're chosen doesn't necessarily mean you're better than everyone else. even the bible warns about making judgments and boasting because as it says "do not judge for ye shall be judged". his reasons for choosing are far deeper than what we could probably comprehend or think of on our own while under our own understanding. Eaten By Cheese But what if you think, then if this Christian sins so much, they'll go to hell for their sins, even though they had these beliefs? Is everything about God's forgiveness just null and void? Or, perhaps, God will give forgiveness up to a point? Then where do you draw the line? keep in mind, that all of us sin 24/hr. our sin is never ending so to say for a christian to sin all the time, thats already true of all Christians. there isn't a day that goes by that i don't sin of some sort whether its simple cussing or maybe a unnatural desire of the flesh as a thought in my mind. his forgiveness is not null or void, i think just more of misconceived. forgive up to a point? well to go back up earlier to what i said about the unforgivable sin against the spirit.......still doesn't mean you'll suddenly go to hell. there does that make more sense? if you have more questions feel free to ask me smile
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Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:25 pm
The Noble Protoman.exe The thing is, you can argue 'till you're blue in the face. It proves nothing. Faith is faith, and if he is who you say he is, then he is stubborn in his faith. You see, atheists have a more blind faith than Christians. While Christians have a purpose and a guideline for living, atheists do not. Look at atheism. God is man. Man is god. Man can't control the universe, but we must learn to understand it. Future generations must understand it more. And so on. Atheists have to prove their point by detesting a God in various attacks that aren't even factual. Yet, no matter how many facts you throw at them, they won't budge. The best attack on an atheist is, "If there is no God, there's no need for morality, right? So how do we judge a right and wrong? If there is no right and wrong, why do we search for it?" and things of that nature. Atheism is a giant circle of knowledge. The problem with atheism is what it even claims itself. We are in an infinite universe, and our purpose here is to understand it. Until we can understand infinity, we cannot understand the universe. While Christianity has one need for an answer. And it's two words. "God is." That's all you need in an argument. All you'll ever need. Why? Because they cannot argue the point. Period. They'll try to attack His nature with "witty" things such as "If God were real, then why are there so many deaths and sicknesses in the world?" and of course the answer is "God is." It can't be argued. Period. There is no argument to bring him to Christianity. In closing, if your friend's world falls apart, my brother, he'll be faced with a choice. Either to let his faith go and find a new truth or to cling to his truth and hope that "nothingness" ends very soon... God bless... Have a good day... from what i've learned they argue against the idea of an ultimate being because there is no proof of one. they go by science and science DOES have evidence....up to a point. their faith isn't blind because most of science is what you can see in front of you. tree's....living organisms.....its there....while you compare it with god....an ultimate being who you can't see here feel touch smell. it would be correct to say that WE go to god by complete BLIND faith. blind in the fact that, we believe in something with absolutely no evidence. to be honest, what they believe is more "logical" and "legitimate" compared to how we believe in things by pure faith. they're quite rational and seem to be more sane than most radical Christians out there that take their faith way too far and beyond what it really is. i mean just look at the age of burning witches....completely ludicrous. i don't ever remember atheists ever doing such things in the name of a religion. and you're absolutely wrong.....they DO have a purpose and guideline for living, its just different than ours. and actually its everything ive been saying so far, they go by logic mainly and we go by blind faith mainly. and for them to argue about why god "allows" suffering ect ect is completely legitimate. and they're not the only ones. there are Christians who have argued the same idea as well, wondering why they are believing in a god that allows suffering to happen in the world. Quote: Yet, no matter how many facts you throw at them, they won't budge. wrong here too. throw facts? THERE IS NO FACTS TO THROW! you can't prove god exist so what facts is there? NONE. you can't prove god with science so OF COURSE they're not going to budge unless you can prove it. the only other reverse psychological argument i like to use is that "you can't prove he exists ,but you can't prove he doesn't either" but that in itself has a flaw too. Quote: The best attack on an atheist is, "If there is no God, there's no need for morality, right? So how do we judge a right and wrong? If there is no right and wrong, why do we search for it?" and things of that nature. you've GOT to be kidding me.....there are thousands of people that don't believe in god and yet they've manage to come up with VERY SIMILAR teachings of the bible. many religions that although don't believe in god, also believe in "being treated as you would treat yourself" "not to murder" "not to steal" simple things in logical terms i think even without god, mankind would for (the most part) come up with some pretty decent rules for society that would keep order. i mean just look at all the idealists out there. most of which come up with these rules of morality for the public.
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Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:59 am
Norma Jean is a good Christian Metal Band.
Supposedly Underoath is, too.
But what I want to tell you is to be passionate about your friend. Before you simply try and convert him, make sure he knows that you love and care for him. The perfect example is the woman caught in Adultery.
Before Jesus told her 'don't do that anymore' He defended her, and showed a passion for her.
But as it was said, God knows who will be saved and who won't. Don't give up, but above all, you should care for your friend.
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