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One big thing about firearms is that they can kill you from far away, without offering any opportunity for a physical struggle. An able-bodied adult attacking another able-bodied adult with a knife has to move quickly and forcefully enough to do damage before he can be disarmed; the same attacker with a handgun benefits from the point-and-click interface, which requires him only to aim.
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Tadpole Jackson
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N3bu
In other news, on the same day in China, Min Yingjun stabbed 22 children and an elderly woman.
And no reported fatalities. Because knives are not as lethal as guns.


If i were to stab you in the heart, or shoot you in the heart, you'd die.

Lethal is lethal, there are not degrees of lethality.
If you fed me enough bacon, I'd also die a delicious, bacon-filled death; that doesn't make bacon as lethal guns or knives.

Your argument is dumb. Of course there are degrees of lethality. Some things kill you faster. Some things kill you easier. You don't see someone trying to take down big game with a ******** pocket knife, because guns are more effective killing tools. They are more lethal, more capable of causing death, more damaging and destructive to living bodies. Hence, the point about the guy who stabbed a bunch of children in China failed to kill any of them, whereas the guy with the high powered rifle and two handguns killed a bunch.


an AR-15 is not a high powered rifle, and he didn't use it on the children, they found it in his car after the shooting.

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The fourth from the left, that's .223, that's what the AR-15 fires. Right next to it on the right is .30-06, a round commonly used to hunt deer.

.30-06 is a full power rifle round, .223 is intermediate, it's only marginally better than the two pistol rounds next to it.

You called it a high powered rifle to make it sound scary, truth is it's one of the *least* powerful rifles you can buy that isn't a .22
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Tadpole Jackson
an AR-15 is not a high powered rifle, and he didn't use it on the children, they found it in his car after the shooting.
Every report I've read put his shotgun in the car, and the AR-15 with him.

Tadpole Jackson
.30-06 is a full power rifle round, .223 is intermediate, it's only marginally better than the two pistol rounds next to it.
What? No, that's dumb. Pistol rounds don't provide nearly the muzzle velocity or overall energy of a rifle round. A .223 has about four times as much power as your standard 9mm round.

Tadpole Jackson
You called it a high powered rifle to make it sound scary, truth is it's one of the *least* powerful rifles you can buy that isn't a .22
I call it a high power rifle because it's a high powered rifle. Not that there's any standard definition, but the AR-15 is basically just an assault rifle with the selective fire stuck on semi-auto. A .223 round, depending on the grain, produces both higher muzzle velocity and more energy than a 5.56 NATO round, which is the standard ammunition of the M-16. Indicating this is at all comparable to a .22 rifle round is ridiculous.
Wendigo's avatar

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See, here's the thing about your .22LR and your .223. A .22LR has 100-200 foot-pounds of energy behind it; it's got a fairly limited powder charge, because it's a very small cartridge.

A .223 has 1100-1300 foot-pounds of energy behind it, because it takes a bullet of about the same size and stacks an enormous powder charge behind it. It's like the difference between a cherry bomb and an M80.
The Infamous Unami's avatar

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...A .223 round, depending on the grain, produces both higher muzzle velocity and more energy than a 5.56 NATO round, which is the standard ammunition of the M-16. Indicating this is at all comparable to a .22 rifle round is ridiculous.

Um... no.

A 5.56 round transfers much more energy than a .223 due to the injection of the tip of the round into the chamber prior to firing. This creates an airtight seal in the firing chamber which, in turn, creates a lot more pressure on ignition of the powder. This is why firing .223 out of an M-16 is fine, but firing 5.56 out of a non-Milspec .223 can end with you and a face full of metal bits.

Also, the powder in a 5.56 is much more densely packed.

Sauce.

Anyway, a .223 is still a hell of a lot more potent than a .22 (11 times more potent, if measuring by energy transfer, which is what you should measure by,) but it in no way compares to the performance of a 5.56 round. They just look alike. A round of NATO 64 grain transfers over 60% more energy than a standard 36 grain round of Remington .223 (although yes, the latter does go much faster.)

/gunnut
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The Infamous Unami
A 5.56 round transfers much more energy than a .223 due to the injection of the tip of the round into the chamber prior to firing. This creates an airtight seal in the firing chamber which, in turn, creates a lot more pressure on ignition of the powder. This is why firing .223 out of an M-16 is fine, but firing 5.56 out of a non-Milspec .223 can end with you and a face full of metal bits.
Which is a question of barrel pressure and the the like, not overall efficiency of the round or energy transfer to the bullet.

The Infamous Unami
Anyway, a .223 is still a hell of a lot more potent than a .22 (11 times more potent, if measuring by energy transfer, which is what you should measure by,) but it in no way compares to the performance of a 5.56 round. They just look alike. A round of NATO 64 grain transfers over 60% more energy than a standard 36 grain round of Remington .223 (although yes, the latter does go much faster.)

/gunnut
Gotta point out that the wiki page on these rounds show each of these rounds going around 900-1000 m/s and each producing about 1500-1800 J of energy, depending on grain. Which is, y'know, why I said "depending on grain." Kinetic energy, after all, is just a function of mass and velocity. So, yes, something that is about twice as heavy and moves about same will have about twice as much energy. A .223 round generally accomplishes just that when it moves up in grain. So, comparing the 36 grain to the 64 doesn't really do much for me, when there are comparable grains that where the the .223 is pretty indistinguishable or, as I pointed out, out performs the 5.56.

Gun nut at me all you like. Doesn't change User Image - Blocked by "Display Image" Settings. Click to show.
Major Lima Charlie's avatar

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Wendigo
One big thing about firearms is that they can kill you from far away, without offering any opportunity for a physical struggle. An able-bodied adult attacking another able-bodied adult with a knife has to move quickly and forcefully enough to do damage before he can be disarmed; the same attacker with a handgun benefits from the point-and-click interface, which requires him only to aim.
Stabbing someone from behind offers no chance for defense, either.
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Major Lima Charlie
Wendigo
One big thing about firearms is that they can kill you from far away, without offering any opportunity for a physical struggle. An able-bodied adult attacking another able-bodied adult with a knife has to move quickly and forcefully enough to do damage before he can be disarmed; the same attacker with a handgun benefits from the point-and-click interface, which requires him only to aim.
Stabbing someone from behind offers no chance for defense, either.
Stabbing them from twenty feet in front of them sure does.
Major Lima Charlie's avatar

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Wendigo
Major Lima Charlie
Wendigo
One big thing about firearms is that they can kill you from far away, without offering any opportunity for a physical struggle. An able-bodied adult attacking another able-bodied adult with a knife has to move quickly and forcefully enough to do damage before he can be disarmed; the same attacker with a handgun benefits from the point-and-click interface, which requires him only to aim.
Stabbing someone from behind offers no chance for defense, either.
Stabbing them from twenty feet in front of them sure does.
Benefit of knives, is discretion. Then again, smaller small arms benefit from that as well, and firing from within a crowd is devastatingly effective. Panic fans out, giving the shooter unparalleled attack angle and difficulty for responders to immediately respond due to panicking people.
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Tadpole Jackson
an AR-15 is not a high powered rifle, and he didn't use it on the children, they found it in his car after the shooting.
Every report I've read put his shotgun in the car, and the AR-15 with him.

Tadpole Jackson
.30-06 is a full power rifle round, .223 is intermediate, it's only marginally better than the two pistol rounds next to it.
What? No, that's dumb. Pistol rounds don't provide nearly the muzzle velocity or overall energy of a rifle round. A .223 has about four times as much power as your standard 9mm round.

Tadpole Jackson
You called it a high powered rifle to make it sound scary, truth is it's one of the *least* powerful rifles you can buy that isn't a .22
I call it a high power rifle because it's a high powered rifle. Not that there's any standard definition, but the AR-15 is basically just an assault rifle with the selective fire stuck on semi-auto. A .223 round, depending on the grain, produces both higher muzzle velocity and more energy than a 5.56 NATO round, which is the standard ammunition of the M-16. Indicating this is at all comparable to a .22 rifle round is ridiculous.


.223 is less powerful than 5.56NATO

and both are not high powered rifle rounds, they may be more powerful than .22LR, but they are still the LEAST powerful centerfire rifle rounds you can possibly get.
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Jeering Regular

Tadpole Jackson
.223 is less powerful than 5.56NATO
Wow. Just finished talking about this.

Tadpole Jackson
and both are not high powered rifle rounds, they may be more powerful than .22LR, but they are still the LEAST powerful centerfire rifle rounds you can possibly get.
You are aware they make centerfire .22 ammunition, right? Also, you're leaving out a bunch of rifle ammunition. Ignoring for a moment all the wildcat cartridges varminters use, you have the 5.45 5N7 rounds, .17 caliber, and FN 5.7x28 mm.
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Tadpole Jackson
.223 is less powerful than 5.56NATO
Wow. Just finished talking about this.

Tadpole Jackson
and both are not high powered rifle rounds, they may be more powerful than .22LR, but they are still the LEAST powerful centerfire rifle rounds you can possibly get.
You are aware they make centerfire .22 ammunition, right? Also, you're leaving out a bunch of rifle ammunition. Ignoring for a moment all the wildcat cartridges varminters use, you have the 5.45 5N7 rounds, .17 caliber, and FN 5.7x28 mm.


5.7 isn't a rifle round, it's a pistol round.

.17HMR/HM2 is rimfire.

5.45 is roughly identical to 5.56

oh, another thing, if the AR-15 is "an assault rifle with the fire selector "stuck" on semi auto" what is this:

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GunsmithKitten's avatar

Aged Lunatic

Wendigo
One big thing about firearms is that they can kill you from far away, without offering any opportunity for a physical struggle. An able-bodied adult attacking another able-bodied adult with a knife has to move quickly and forcefully enough to do damage before he can be disarmed; the same attacker with a handgun benefits from the point-and-click interface, which requires him only to aim.


But so too does a defender with a firearm.

And I'm pretty sure a weed like me will have NO problem disarming a far larger man, yea, my 110 pound frame must surely strike fear in the hearts of felons...
Ban's avatar

Jeering Regular

Tadpole Jackson
5.7 isn't a rifle round, it's a pistol round.
5.7 uses a small rifle primer and is used in the PS90 carbine. This isn't hard.

Tadpole Jackson
.17HMR/HM2 is rimfire.
.17 Hornet is a centerfire

Tadpole Jackson
5.45 is roughly identical to 5.56
Hahahahaha, no. 5.45x39mm produces a lower muzzle velocity, lower energy, and less kick back precisely because it is not identical, roughly or otherwise.

Tadpole Jackson
oh, another thing, if the AR-15 is "an assault rifle with the fire selector "stuck" on semi auto" what is this:

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Looks like a semi-auto rifle. Like an old M1 Garand or Browning BAR. Are you trying to make a point?
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Tadpole Jackson
5.7 isn't a rifle round, it's a pistol round.
5.7 uses a small rifle primer and is used in the PS90 carbine. This isn't hard.

Tadpole Jackson
.17HMR/HM2 is rimfire.
.17 Hornet is a centerfire

Tadpole Jackson
5.45 is roughly identical to 5.56
Hahahahaha, no. 5.45x39mm produces a lower muzzle velocity, lower energy, and less kick back precisely because it is not identical, roughly or otherwise.

Tadpole Jackson
oh, another thing, if the AR-15 is "an assault rifle with the fire selector "stuck" on semi auto" what is this:

User Image - Blocked by "Display Image" Settings. Click to show.
Looks like a semi-auto rifle. Like an old M1 Garand or Browning BAR. Are you trying to make a point?

The 5.7 is a bit of a b*****d round, not truly a rifle round, as it is not designed for long distance shooting, is slower, and designed for close range combat, which is more suited to handgun usage. In fact, after the P90, the FiveSeveN was launched due to the caliber working so well in a pistol configuration.
That, and the P90 is a POS.
Makes more sense to use a Wylde barrel in 5.56 on a carbine than a P90.
And there is no way in hell that rifle is either a Garand or a BAR. Looks more like a .22 Marlin or Savage. It has a synthetic stock, and neither the Garand or BAR had such. And neither even bear a slight resemblance to what was posted.

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