Is Satan the good guy?

[Maltese_Falcon91]

Seraphor

Without announcing my own beliefs, I'd like to propose the concept of Satan as the good guy, and God as evil.

I'd like to think that life is far too complicated to be able to point at someone and call them either "the good guy" or "the bad guy."

Seraphor

What are your thoughts on the character of God in general?

I think that if you're going to believe in any God, you shouldn't look for answers in a holy book. Look at the substructure of the universe, and the behaviour of electrons and protons within a molecule. Look at the genetic information encoded in our Deoxyribonucleic acid. Look at the stars, study how they're formed, and how they eventually die. Look at Quantum Mechanics and try to understand the mathematical principles of our reality.

You'll find your answers there.

[Alashuko The Fighter]

haunting heaven

Alashuko The Fighter

haunting heaven

Alashuko The Fighter

stealthmongoose

Alashuko The Fighter

So modern day human sacrifices from Satans followers would make him a good guy? Sure, Satan killed 10 people, but his followers will add to the count in his name.

You just admitted to every Christian who did the same representing God.

Also, fun fact; Far more people have been killed and sacrificed in the name of God than will ever be extinguished in the name of Satan.

This means that human sacrifices and murders from God's followers makes him what type of guy?

Trust me, back then, I would think he was evil. But difference of today, satan presents modern day sacrifices. Jesus doesn't demand modern day sacrifices. If I may quote St. Augustine: "Love God and do what you want." We should no longer have to atone or over sacrifices for our problems or to gain the abilities to do certain tasks.

I'd actually like you to find a Satanist group that claims Satan desires animal sacrifices, let alone human sacrifices. The whole "Satanists have secret rituals in the woods and eat children" scare that happened in, what? The eighties through nineties? I don't know the timeline, but it turned out to be a bunch of ignorant people scaring themselves while they whined over satanic lyrics in rock music (plus a few people "recovering" memories of ritual abuse due to faulty psychiatry).

When was the last time you heard about someone killed in a sacrifice to Satan?

Now, when is the last time you heard about someone killing in the name of God?

As stealthmongoose already pointed out, God has a much higher pile of bodies at his feet than Satan could ever hope to achieve. So if we're using "follower's kill count" as a measuring stick for evil, guess who wins the prize?

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jul/18/local/la-me-ln-man-killed-mom-on-satanic-holiday-for-human-sacrifice-da-says-20130718

And that is what you call an anomaly -- assuming that he even sacrificed her since that was the prosecutor's claim, not the perpetrator's. Which immediately makes that suspect to me, because there is the stereotype of the bloodthirsty Satanists, and of COURSE a prosecutor is going to use that stereotype to their advantage.

Now, care to address the rest of my post? Because you can post a single article about someone who MIGHT have killed someone in the name of Satan, but that doesn't discount the fact that people kill in the name of God much more often (and sometimes in mass killings) while proudly stating that that is EXACTLY what they are doing, thus still rendering your point moot.

Moises Meraz-Espinoza walked into the Huntington Park Police Department two years ago and confessed to killing his mother, Amelia Espinoza, 42.

And people killed and continue to kill in the name of God. Big. Mother. ********. Whoop. It's just another motive for murder as well as a conviction.

[Mora Console]

Considering satan is the embodiement of pure evil and disobdience and the author of chaos in mans life.. He is far from the good guy

Satan killed a total of 10 people according to the Bible.[ Actually if you take all the people who believe in other gods other than the god of truth[YHWH Of the holy bible] They killed far more people in terms of millions.]
God has killed countless millions, including all life on Earth except the population of a single boat.[It is not our right to say when we live or die it is god's right]
God demands constant praise and worship.[If one strays from the path others will follow, this is why the believers stay in contact with their source]

I find this topic pretty messed up. you said god killed millions? Satan kills more by conviencing other's he is the god and to tell them to sacrifice and eat people.. If you take account the missing people all over the world, the best answer is they were eaten by devil worshipers or canniables who have no footing with the bible.. They dispose of the bodies in a easy way.. Just letting you know god only allows us to suffer to grow. if we had not suffered we would not learn better.. I have a saying.. a hard teacher is a fast teacher.

I cant understand all of this.. because god doesnt ask us to sacrfice one another like the devil does, he asks us to deal out mercy not judgement. in the end he is the judge but in life.. we are judged by others and the devil constantly.

[Mora Console]

concerning the flood,, I forgot to mention.

The offspring of the fallen angels, were needed to be destroyed.. they coruppted normal man and was a influence that bore that they themselves were god's and the other is no god, which is false.

It came a time only one family was worthy of life and the rest of death.. that was the flood's purpose.

[Shama_okami]

I've long thought that the biblical god is an egotistical p***k.

[Bogotanian]

haunting heaven

Alashuko The Fighter

stealthmongoose

Alashuko The Fighter

So modern day human sacrifices from Satans followers would make him a good guy? Sure, Satan killed 10 people, but his followers will add to the count in his name.

You just admitted to every Christian who did the same representing God.

Also, fun fact; Far more people have been killed and sacrificed in the name of God than will ever be extinguished in the name of Satan.

This means that human sacrifices and murders from God's followers makes him what type of guy?

Trust me, back then, I would think he was evil. But difference of today, satan presents modern day sacrifices. Jesus doesn't demand modern day sacrifices. If I may quote St. Augustine: "Love God and do what you want." We should no longer have to atone or over sacrifices for our problems or to gain the abilities to do certain tasks.

I'd actually like you to find a Satanist group that claims Satan desires animal sacrifices, let alone human sacrifices. The whole "Satanists have secret rituals in the woods and eat children" scare that happened in, what? The eighties through nineties? I don't know the timeline, but it turned out to be a bunch of ignorant people scaring themselves while they whined over satanic lyrics in rock music (plus a few people "recovering" memories of ritual abuse due to faulty psychiatry).

When was the last time you heard about someone killed in a sacrifice to Satan?

Now, when is the last time you heard about someone killing in the name of God?

As stealthmongoose already pointed out, God has a much higher pile of bodies at his feet than Satan could ever hope to achieve. So if we're using "follower's kill count" as a measuring stick for evil, guess who wins the prize?

The problem is that you can't use a "follower's kill count" as a measure for evil. And while I am sure that there are many Satanic/Occult rituals which do harm and sacrifice people, that is not necessarily needed for Satan's purpose. (though you could count many sacrifices, such as of the Aztecs or to Moloch in the Bible as sacrifices to the Great Deceiver in the Grand scheme of things) All he needs to do is deceive people, lead them astray, so that they will die without accepting the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Also, there is a valid point about God's justice that people just don't want to hear in this day and age: he is allowed to take life away from his creation. He is allowed to kill the unrighteous if he sees it just. People would rather call God evil for this and try to sympathize with Satan, but in the end it is playing into deception.

And to the OP, Satan did not come out looking pretty good and I'm definitely not convinced by that article. You also seem to have left out the fact that they did die. Because of the original sin, Man became mortal and death entered the world. That view that they would die on the day that they ate the fruit? Yeah I don't see that in the Bible.

Also I'm not sure where it mentions Satan having the capacity to be the creator in the Bible? Though I guess for discussions sake (somewhat relates) you could say that God created evil, or the idea that he could be disobeyed (let the serpent tempt them) and I'm fine with that.

[Bogotanian]

Saerow

concerning the flood,, I forgot to mention.

The offspring of the fallen angels, were needed to be destroyed.. they coruppted normal man and was a influence that bore that they themselves were god's and the other is no god, which is false.

It came a time only one family was worthy of life and the rest of death.. that was the flood's purpose.

I absolutely agree with this. A prime reason for the flood was the destruction of the nephilim, who were turning men astray and being worshiped as gods. And they did commit sacrifices and turn men sinful.

[Seraphor]

Hidden Path

Also, there is a valid point about God's justice that people just don't want to hear in this day and age: he is allowed to take life away from his creation. He is allowed to kill the unrighteous if he sees it just.

Why is God 'allowed' to do this but no one else?
Why is it just when God kills?
Killing is killing.

If God decides who lives and dies then God decided Adam and Eve were going to die if they ate from the tree of knowledge. So God decided anyone with knowledge should die.
Why did he decide that and how is that just?

[Hexatonic Scale]

Seraphor

Hidden Path

Also, there is a valid point about God's justice that people just don't want to hear in this day and age: he is allowed to take life away from his creation. He is allowed to kill the unrighteous if he sees it just.

Why is God 'allowed' to do this but no one else?
Why is it just when God kills?
Killing is killing.

If God decides who lives and dies then God decided Adam and Eve were going to die if they ate from the tree of knowledge. So God decided anyone with knowledge should die.
Why did he decide that and how is that just?

Why are mommy and daddy allowed to stay up past midnight and I have to go to sleep by 9?
Why are they allowed to go out to the movies whenever they want but I have to ask?
Why are they allowed to tell me that I'm grounded and have to stay in my room?

How is that just?

[rmcdra]

Seraphor

So what are your thoughts on this interpretation and do you agree with it?

Takes the myth out of it's cultural context but nearly every culture that appropriates a myth does that.

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What are your thoughts on the character of God in general?

Which God? YHVH, the New Testament God, the God of the book of Revelations?

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Do you view him as a reverent, perfect, all-good, all-loving character, or as a narcissistic megalomaniac?

I do view God as good and the source of truth.

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For further consideration, what is your take on the concept of God being the devil in disguise, and Satan being the creator? After all, surely the greatest evil the devil could achieve would be in deceiving the world into thinking he was the good guy.

That's what some early Christians thought
Edit:In case you didn't read through this, let me give you a choice quote from this text

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But what sort is this God? First he maliciously refused Adam from eating of the tree of knowledge, and, secondly, he said "Adam, where are you?" God does not have foreknowledge? Would he not know from the beginning? And afterwards, he said, "Let us cast him out of this place, lest he eat of the tree of life and live forever." Surely, he has shown himself to be a malicious grudger! And what kind of God is this? For great is the blindness of those who read, and they did not know him. And he said, "I am the jealous God; I will bring the sins of the fathers upon the children until three (and) four generations." And he said, "I will make their heart thick, and I will cause their mind to become blind, that they might not know nor comprehend the things that are said." But these things he has said to those who believe in him and serve him!

And in one place, Moses writes, "He made the devil a serpent <for> those whom he has in his generation." Also, in the book which is called "Exodus," it is written thus: "He contended against the magicians, when the place was full of serpents according to their wickedness; and the rod which was in the hand of Moses became a serpent, (and) it swallowed the serpents of the magicians."

Again it is written (Nm 21:9), "He made a serpent of bronze (and) hung it upon a pole ...
... (1 line unrecoverable)
... which [...] for the one who will gaze upon this bronze serpent, none will destroy him, and the one who will believe in this bronze serpent will be saved." For this is Christ; those who believed in him have received life. Those who did not believe will die.

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How about the name 'Lucifer' meaning "light-bringer" or "shining one"?

Lucifer doesn't exist. It's a mistranslation of the King of Tyre.

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For the faithful Christians:
Does this offend your faith? Does it cause you to question it?

No it doesn't offend my faith. It's not too interesting of a question since I'm not a biblical literalist.

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Do you accept it as a challenge to your faith to consider seriously, or do you brush it off as a challenge to your faith that you're not willing to actually take seriously?

I already considered these questions when I was a Bible literalist. It's not an interesting question anymore.

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Would you be willing to bring this issue up in church or would you be afraid to rock the boat?

I already do, hell that's part of running a Gnostic Church. A major premise of Gnostic theology is that there is a god who pretends to be God either because this god is ignorant of God and/or wants us to be ignorant of God. This god is the embodiment of legalism and maintaining the status quo in order to keep power and control of everything.

[stealthmongoose]

Hexatonic Scale

Seraphor

Hidden Path

Also, there is a valid point about God's justice that people just don't want to hear in this day and age: he is allowed to take life away from his creation. He is allowed to kill the unrighteous if he sees it just.

Why is God 'allowed' to do this but no one else?
Why is it just when God kills?
Killing is killing.

If God decides who lives and dies then God decided Adam and Eve were going to die if they ate from the tree of knowledge. So God decided anyone with knowledge should die.
Why did he decide that and how is that just?

Why are mommy and daddy allowed to stay up past midnight and I have to go to sleep by 9?
Why are they allowed to go out to the movies whenever they want but I have to ask?
Why are they allowed to tell me that I'm grounded and have to stay in my room?

How is that just?

Because mommy and daddy aren't timeless beings that can, with a wave of their fingers, stop the flow of time to let me stay up as long as we want?

Because mommy and daddy don't propose to be omnipresent, and need to watch their child because they do not have the benefit of omniscience to ensure that a child doesn't go somewhere dangerous?

Because mommy and daddy don't have the power to be perfect or wave their hands and prevent a child from doing any wrong?

Why do you assume that your questions are relevant to a proposed all-powerful being when compared to human beings who are limited? I.E. why should God fail at standards that most human beings can meet? (i.e. not killing someone.)

[Hexatonic Scale]

stealthmongoose

Hexatonic Scale

Seraphor

Hidden Path

Also, there is a valid point about God's justice that people just don't want to hear in this day and age: he is allowed to take life away from his creation. He is allowed to kill the unrighteous if he sees it just.

Why is God 'allowed' to do this but no one else?
Why is it just when God kills?
Killing is killing.

If God decides who lives and dies then God decided Adam and Eve were going to die if they ate from the tree of knowledge. So God decided anyone with knowledge should die.
Why did he decide that and how is that just?

Why are mommy and daddy allowed to stay up past midnight and I have to go to sleep by 9?
Why are they allowed to go out to the movies whenever they want but I have to ask?
Why are they allowed to tell me that I'm grounded and have to stay in my room?

How is that just?

Because mommy and daddy aren't timeless beings that can, with a wave of their fingers, stop the flow of time to let me stay up as long as we want?

Because mommy and daddy don't propose to be omnipresent, and need to watch their child because they do not have the benefit of omniscience to ensure that a child doesn't go somewhere dangerous?

Because mommy and daddy don't have the power to be perfect or wave their hands and prevent a child from doing any wrong?

Why do you assume that your questions are relevant to a proposed all-powerful being when compared to human beings who are limited? I.E. why should God fail at standards that most human beings can meet? (i.e. not killing someone.)

Do you grieve for the uncountable number of bacteria your body kills each and every day?

[Aporeia]

Satan is not the serpent; he is a different entity entirely.

[haunting heaven]

Hidden Path

The problem is that you can't use a "follower's kill count" as a measure for evil.

I'm not the one who put it forth as an issue. I'm simply pointing out Alashuko's faulty reasoning. Why don't you take it up with him?

And while I think "follower kill count" is faulty, actual kill count of the entities in question certainly means something. And God still brutally slaughters people over and over again in your holy book, whereas the only people Satan kills, he kills with God's permission.

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And while I am sure that there are many Satanic/Occult rituals which do harm and sacrifice people,

And why on earth are you sure of that?

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that is not necessarily needed for Satan's purpose. (though you could count many sacrifices, such as of the Aztecs or to Moloch in the Bible as sacrifices to the Great Deceiver in the Grand scheme of things)

No. Because the Aztecs have nothing whatsoever to do with Satan because they worshiped OTHER GODS, and any sacrifices made to false Gods in the OT can have nothing to do with Satan, either, seeing as Satan was simply just another angel of God's who did what he was told to do BY GOD. He doesn't become a malevolent entity until the NT.

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All he needs to do is deceive people, lead them astray, so that they will die without accepting the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

And what if by "leading them astray" he is actually saving them from the horrific fate that is heaven? See, anyone can make wild, unprovable claims about fictional characters.

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Also, there is a valid point about God's justice that people just don't want to hear in this day and age: he is allowed to take life away from his creation.

Allowed? Technically. But if you want to tell me that he's all-loving and merciful and so on, then I'm going to side eye you real hard.

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He is allowed to kill the unrighteous if he sees it just.

Infants are unrighteous? Punishing children because of the sins of their parents is just? Killing a whole family for the sake of one member is okay?

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People would rather call God evil for this and try to sympathize with Satan, but in the end it is playing into deception.

Really? How do you know? If we have to worry about being deceived by otherworldly forces, what on earth makes you think you could ever know for sure if you haven't been deceived or not? Especially since the OP isn't wrong about God deceiving Adam and Eve in Genesis. God clearly has no issues with lying or with blaming humanity for something that was technically his responsibility (because if you think Adam and Eve should be blamed for "sinning," I'm just going to have to point out that the very tree that they weren't supposed to eat from was the only thing that would have allowed them to understand and resist temptation). Why on earth should anyone trust God over Satan? The Bible seems to fail the classic "show, don't tell" issue. It tells us (in the NT) that Satan is evil and God doesn't lie, but it shows us that Satan (assuming he is the snake, because that's not actually biblical, either) cares more about humanity than their deceiver God.

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And to the OP, Satan did not come out looking pretty good and I'm definitely not convinced by that article. You also seem to have left out the fact that they did die.

Genesis 2:16-17 "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

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Because of the original sin, Man became mortal and death entered the world. That view that they would die on the day that they ate the fruit? Yeah I don't see that in the Bible.

Probably because you haven't bothered to read it. The wonders that reading your own holy book can do for you, yeah? Because that verse I posted above? It's from the Bible.

[haunting heaven]

Alashuko The Fighter

Moises Meraz-Espinoza walked into the Huntington Park Police Department two years ago and confessed to killing his mother, Amelia Espinoza, 42.

Uh. Yes. He obviously killed her. What I'm arguing is that I don't immediately buy the line that he killed her because of Satanism. He could have, but the fact that the prosecuting lawyer is the one who claimed this doesn't prove that he actually did.

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And people killed and continue to kill in the name of God. Big. Mother. ********. Whoop. It's just another motive for murder as well as a conviction.

I like how you're getting all defensive once your own reasoning has been turned on you. If Satan is evil because his followers kill in his name, then all you did was dig your own grave there, buddy. Don't get angry with me. It's your bullshit I'm using.