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Doofi3
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I don't like your approach to this topic, but I have to say that some of these reasons are why I am not a part of a "major religion." I'm still a part of a religion, but it isn't really an "established" religion.

Oh, and as far as number 2 goes: Not if you're an agnostic *insert religious identifier*.


I get a kick out of the claim that religion is for dummies made by people who can't grasp the fact that some things are beyond our knowing.


Yeah, I made that post before actually reading the OP in detail. My stupid mistake.


I had no issue with you, simply the short bus mentality of the OP and their zealous devotion to atheism, which, realistically, has a devotion in some cases bordering what people in other area's are called fanaticism with.
Almost like, by screaming 'Their is no God' loud enough, and long enough, they can cause Him to vanish.


Yea, its these sort of atheists that make me say that atheism is, in fact, a religion in and of itself.
it is pretty much a religion because its an accepted label they are brandishing. Being something like agnostic isnt as much an extreme, its more realistic, so indentifying as an atheist is like saying without a doubt there are no gods or no reason for religion, which honestly they can't say without a bias, because they don't know, religion is like this also though because its claim something is real when they don't have evidence. So agnosticism is sort of like the middle ground. but also meh.
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blakart
"I think you're just as deluded and narrow-minded as any religious nut I've ever met.

Not to mention this is quite obviously a weak attempt at trolling"
i tip my hat to you sir


Why thank you.
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Complex Systems

Taken from my response to BCJ, just I took out the size tags.

The fact we don't know something 100% doesn't leave the chance of knowledge. The way a lot of god(s) are enumerated makes them strictly unfalsifiable, that is, even with the extension of technology a being that doesn't exist in the material realm is unfalsifiable.

Bold text is the key word here. Not to mention the fact that there are many people who believe their God has "extensions" or "reach" into the material, which, if true, should be testable.

Complex Systems
Being able to test something implies it exists in the material realm, which would be a contradiction.I'm going to stick with the christian god here, since according to Genesis "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." implies that god existed before "stuff" existed. Thus, is outside of "stuff." Any amount of material evidence proving this god doesn't exist among all the "stuff" would never be sufficient to disprove a claim that the god exists outside of it, citing Gen 1:1. This makes claims about the christian god unfalsifiable as we can neither prove nor disprove any claims sufficiently.

First off, only focusing on Yahweh is narrowing your argument significantly and doesn't really help you in a debate against anyone that is not Christian, Jewish, or Muslim. Secondly, simply because it is claimed that Yahweh did at one time exist outside of "stuff" does NOT preclude that deity from moving into "stuff" at a later time. That's all not to mention that you're narrowing yourself even further by focusing on just ONE verse of thousands in the Old Testament and not taking into account the New Testament which claims God DID, in fact, descent into the material.

Complex Systems
The only things we can know with 100% accuracy and fact are mathematical and logical truths, so we need to find other ways to accumulate legitimate knowledge about the world around us.

No, we don't. There could always be exceptions to any mathematical or logical "truth." Nothing is 100% from a scientific perspective. We could always be wrong, even if it is only in very specific circumstances.

Complex Systems
You're right, some god(s) may be able to be falsified, just not all of them. Many of them will remain unfalsifiable or provable under most accepted logical systems.

I disagree, I think that most ARE in fact falsifiable. Religions wouldn't last long if their deities weren't expressed in nature to SOME degree. If an ancient people couldn't point out instances of their deity's actions they were pretty much s**t out of luck in terms of spreading their beliefs, which means they generally died out.

Complex Systems
We can make claims about things we can know, under a variety of different epistemologies. However, things that are strictly not-testable are unknowable. How can we make valid claims about things we cannot know? Scientists can at least say, "according to this outline, we came to these results," and people can test and try to duplicate those results. I'm currently working on two economics papers for my job where I probably spend 1/5th of the time outlining my methodology, data, and rationale for doing certain things. I'm trying to be as open as possible for people to double check my work.

Same thing can be said for most religious beliefs if you apply a scientific approach.

As a worst case scenario: Supposing religious beliefs ARE, in truth, un-testable, its always possible to apply spiritual meaning to things science cannot currently explain AND be logical about it. There will ALWAYS be things that human sciences cannot fully explain.
*Yawn* This whole thread is so early 2000s on Gaia...
Audio X Beat
I could almost buy into this. Then I remember all the religious people I know who are smarter, bigger, better, faster, and more efficient than I am. And it's not that they just want to have their lives ran in some automated thoughtless scheme. They believe and practice what they believe because they have reached certain logical conclusions. And some of their testaments are pretty thought provoking and intellectual. They just happen to have the element of faith that I lack that seems to make their system work for them in full effect.

That being said, there are "dummies" out there who fit into this mess you've posted here. Some people are sheep and need to be led because they can't manage life otherwise.

I wish more supposed 'intellectuals' could come to this conclusion.
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Riviera de la Mancha
*Yawn* This whole thread is so early 2000s on Gaia...

So are you Riviera!

Long time no see.
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Let me sum this up...
I basically agree with this premise. I feel that spiritual development is a lonely, personal journey, and should not include tailoring your relationship with God/the universe to someone else's standards. I hate that religion has rules and restricted conduct/rituals, and often discourages asking certain questions. You're just supposed to accept it "their way" and it discourages personal philosophizing about your relationship with/to your Creator. I also feel most religions are just elaborate cults made to control people, taking advantage of their inherent fear of death and solitude.
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Old Blue Collar Joe
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Doofi3
I don't like your approach to this topic, but I have to say that some of these reasons are why I am not a part of a "major religion." I'm still a part of a religion, but it isn't really an "established" religion.

Oh, and as far as number 2 goes: Not if you're an agnostic *insert religious identifier*.


I get a kick out of the claim that religion is for dummies made by people who can't grasp the fact that some things are beyond our knowing.


Yeah, I made that post before actually reading the OP in detail. My stupid mistake.


I had no issue with you, simply the short bus mentality of the OP and their zealous devotion to atheism, which, realistically, has a devotion in some cases bordering what people in other area's are called fanaticism with.
Almost like, by screaming 'Their is no God' loud enough, and long enough, they can cause Him to vanish.


Evangelical Atheism. the goal is to make God vanish from all public discourse, because they'd rather not talk about God or Gods. it's basically just "there is no God, because if there was, it'd have to be more awesome than me, and I cannot fathom such a thing, so shut up and let's talk about MY beliefs and why they're awesome."

not too dissimilar from Evangelical Christianity and it's mindset of "Jesus is my Homie, and because I'm in his crew, that makes me awesome by association, so shut up and let's talk about how I know Jesus and how that makes me cool."
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Riviera de la Mancha
*Yawn* This whole thread is so early 2000s on Gaia...

So are you Riviera!

Long time no see.

Exactly- that's how I know. I remember when I started here and I used to see a ton of these 'religion is dumb' threads.

Um... I dont know how you know me, as I dont remember you, but okay?
Dandrogyny
Let me sum this up...
I basically agree with this premise. I feel that spiritual development is a lonely, personal journey, and should not include tailoring your relationship with God/the universe to someone else's standards. I hate that religion has rules and restricted conduct/rituals, and often discourages asking certain questions. You're just supposed to accept it "their way" and it discourages personal philosophizing about your relationship with/to your Creator. I also feel most religions are just elaborate cults made to control people, taking advantage of their inherent fear of death and solitude.

You shouldnt tailor your relationship with God to fit someone else's standards, that's true. Religion however doesnt require that that be the case. Religion offers guidance, and seeks to help you focus on a connection. Questions are also integral to religion generally.

I also never got this control argument people put forward for religion. Control them to do what? I mean, for God's sake, how many Christians or Catholics do you know who have, say, had sex outside of marriage? How many have stolen? Even murdered? Whatever ends religions are trying to 'control' their followers towards, all I see is whole lot of failure.
Ryu Kei Shou Kawazu

it is pretty much a religion because its an accepted label they are brandishing. Being something like agnostic isnt as much an extreme, its more realistic, so indentifying as an atheist is like saying without a doubt there are no gods or no reason for religion, which honestly they can't say without a bias, because they don't know, religion is like this also though because its claim something is real when they don't have evidence. So agnosticism is sort of like the middle ground. but also meh.


Wait, are you saying that claiming something there is no proof for make more sense than claiming something isn't real because there's no proof?

Anygay, no. Atheism isn't a religion. It's lacking the belief that gods exist. While I don't believe any gods exist, I, unlike many theists, am willing to admit that I could be wrong.
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MissSweet77
Ryu Kei Shou Kawazu

it is pretty much a religion because its an accepted label they are brandishing. Being something like agnostic isnt as much an extreme, its more realistic, so indentifying as an atheist is like saying without a doubt there are no gods or no reason for religion, which honestly they can't say without a bias, because they don't know, religion is like this also though because its claim something is real when they don't have evidence. So agnosticism is sort of like the middle ground. but also meh.


Wait, are you saying that claiming something there is no proof for make more sense than claiming something isn't real because there's no proof?

Anygay, no. Atheism isn't a religion. It's lacking the belief that gods exist. While I don't believe any gods exist, I, unlike many theists, am willing to admit that I could be wrong.


I'm unsure of what he was claiming, but atheism is a religion. At the very least it functions just like one in most cases.

Awesome, finally an agnostic atheist. I've been wondering where the more moderate atheists were in some of these threads.
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Riviera de la Mancha
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Riviera de la Mancha
*Yawn* This whole thread is so early 2000s on Gaia...

So are you Riviera!

Long time no see.

Exactly- that's how I know. I remember when I started here and I used to see a ton of these 'religion is dumb' threads.


I know, that was my point, lol. I agree.

Riviera de la Mancha
Um... I dont know how you know me, as I dont remember you, but okay?


Lol. I wouldn't expect you to remember me. I remember you though. We had a few debates/conversations in some interesting threads a year or so ago. (Might have been longer than that even. Either way it has been a very long time and I may have had a different screen name at the time.)
Pro Life Nymph
While consciously pursuing your spiritual development is commendable |
I got this far. What makes it's commendable? The entirety of your argument hinges on this but what makes Spirituality any wiser to ascribe to?

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