God's Not Dead

[GunsmithKitten]

Kaworu 17

Blue Beastie

Apparently this was based off a true story?

You mean you haven't had at least three overzealous atheist professors in your college experience?

I had one radical feminist atheist, but she was it. I had far more Christian professors. One constantly tried to convert me and wanted to counsel me constantly about getting help for my gayness.

[Blood Valkyrie]

K-r-e-v-y-e-t-k-a

Turnilk

K-r-e-v-y-e-t-k-a

It's a good parallel between the subtle feeling of "heroism" in the narrative of Darwinian evolution, the current "self made" individualistic culture, and a lot of people's answer to why they don't believe in God. They think that they don't need him.

Or they could, you know, not believe god actually exists, which is what being an atheist means.

From what I've been able to gather on the movie, the professor answers the question "why are you angry at god?" with something along the lines of "because my wife died of cancer". An atheist would not be angry at a character they believed to be fictional. It would be like asking a Christian "do you believe in Odin?" and when they say no responding with "why are you angry with Odin?" It makes no sense. The professor in the movie is therefore not an atheist, but someone who is really mad at a god they believe in, so they say they don't believe in that god to... I don't know, piss him off? make the god sad? Whatever the case may be, he is not actually an atheist.

Not everyone has beef with God, but those that do are still atheists.

People's motives for not believing in God are often more complex than "they just don't." At least if they're from a western culture. Most international students here from Asia never heard of who Jesus is, so they don't have any sort of bias or poor experience with God. (So asian international students might be a good demographic representation of actual atheists / agnostics)

Even if it doesn't philosophically jive with atheism, people who are angry with God and actively avoid worshiping him / claiming his existence still associate themselves with atheism. So we talk about them using their self given title.

Allow me to explain this to you, even though someone has already explained it to you.

If you have a "beef" with God, you are not an Atheist, you are probably a misotheist or maltheist. In order to have a "beef" with a god, you have to have a belief in a god.

If you are an atheist, you do not have a belief in any gods, and so you have no "beefs" with any gods. You might say that a particular god of a particular religion seems evil in the context of the stories the god is a character in, just like people say Voldemort is evil.

Some people might claim to be atheist, while expressing some sort of belief in a god. Those people don't know what atheism means.

Got it?

[GunsmithKitten]

K-r-e-v-y-e-t-k-a

The higher up in education you go, the more you see people who either don't know God or really hate him. On a secular university campus, it really does sometimes seem like you're alone, and in every science course (even the social sciences) God is unwelcome. A lot of Christians also turn away from God around their college years as well.

You'd have liked it where I was then. Christianity everywhere.

Also, it's science class, not theology or religious studies.

[Mrtyu-Mara]

GunsmithKitten

Kaworu 17

Blue Beastie

Apparently this was based off a true story?

You mean you haven't had at least three overzealous atheist professors in your college experience?

I had one radical feminist atheist, but she was it. I had far more Christian professors. One constantly tried to convert me and wanted to counsel me constantly about getting help for my gayness.

You gotta pray that gay away, Gunsmith. I wonder if "getting help for your gayness" meant degayification camps in your teachers mind.

[rmcdra]

Mrtyu-Mara

I'm happy you were fortunate enough to meet those who stepped away from the negative stereotypes.

I, unfortunately, did not get to be so fortunate. Since I live in a rural area of Ohio, it's very back-water and there is religious zeal everywhere. I was a social pariah in High School due to my atheism and called a "Devil worshiper" (which shows their idiocy is astronomical). Eventually, I "wised up" I guess, and never revealed my religious beliefs. When asked, I would say, "I don't know you well enough to get into that." or "My mom taught me that you shouldn't discuss religion or politics in polite company."

There was only one teacher I was fortunate enough to meet that truly could discuss philosophical and religious topics with me like an unbiased, nonjudgmental adult. I wish there were more people like that.

I hope that there are more adults like that too. I'm sorry that you were bullied too. The kids you went to school with sound like ignorant dicks. It's difficult to explore what you believe and to express it when you live in small towns, especially when what you believe or think goes against that hamlet's current. I can't imagine the torment you must have went through but I can sympathize with being an outcast in that during my freshman year of high school, I was pretty much forced to go to counseling by my school and then ended up hospitalized for 3 weeks. For my two years of high school, I was pretty much avoided except by a few people.

Quote:

Side note: It's actually funny, rmcdra. I guess I made some of my family mad for a Facebook post I made about God's Not Dead. I commented that I couldn't see a movie endorsed by the AFA in good conscience, and my step-mom got all in a tizzy over that. She basically made a snarky comment and said she was still going to go see it. I told her "And that's fine. I've got no beef with that. Get down with your bad self." lol

lol. That is pretty funny.

[Mrtyu-Mara]

Blood Valkyrie

K-r-e-v-y-e-t-k-a

Turnilk

K-r-e-v-y-e-t-k-a

It's a good parallel between the subtle feeling of "heroism" in the narrative of Darwinian evolution, the current "self made" individualistic culture, and a lot of people's answer to why they don't believe in God. They think that they don't need him.

Or they could, you know, not believe god actually exists, which is what being an atheist means.

From what I've been able to gather on the movie, the professor answers the question "why are you angry at god?" with something along the lines of "because my wife died of cancer". An atheist would not be angry at a character they believed to be fictional. It would be like asking a Christian "do you believe in Odin?" and when they say no responding with "why are you angry with Odin?" It makes no sense. The professor in the movie is therefore not an atheist, but someone who is really mad at a god they believe in, so they say they don't believe in that god to... I don't know, piss him off? make the god sad? Whatever the case may be, he is not actually an atheist.

Not everyone has beef with God, but those that do are still atheists.

People's motives for not believing in God are often more complex than "they just don't." At least if they're from a western culture. Most international students here from Asia never heard of who Jesus is, so they don't have any sort of bias or poor experience with God. (So asian international students might be a good demographic representation of actual atheists / agnostics)

Even if it doesn't philosophically jive with atheism, people who are angry with God and actively avoid worshiping him / claiming his existence still associate themselves with atheism. So we talk about them using their self given title.

Allow me to explain this to you, even though someone has already explained it to you.

If you have a "beef" with God, you are not an Atheist, you are probably a misotheist or maltheist. In order to have a "beef" with a god, you have to have a belief in a god.

If you are an atheist, you do not have a belief in any gods, and so you have no "beefs" with any gods. You might say that a particular god of a particular religion seems evil in the context of the stories the god is a character in, just like people say Voldemort is evil.

Some people might claim to be atheist, while expressing some sort of belief in a god. Those people don't know what atheism means.

Got it?

I don't really know of anyone who calls themselves atheist who apparently has "beef" with God or any deities. That's just silly. They're mad at something they don't believe in?

I know plenty of atheists who have crazy beef with God's fanbase, but not God, really. lol

[Blood Valkyrie]

Mrtyu-Mara

Blood Valkyrie

K-r-e-v-y-e-t-k-a

Turnilk

K-r-e-v-y-e-t-k-a

It's a good parallel between the subtle feeling of "heroism" in the narrative of Darwinian evolution, the current "self made" individualistic culture, and a lot of people's answer to why they don't believe in God. They think that they don't need him.

Or they could, you know, not believe god actually exists, which is what being an atheist means.

From what I've been able to gather on the movie, the professor answers the question "why are you angry at god?" with something along the lines of "because my wife died of cancer". An atheist would not be angry at a character they believed to be fictional. It would be like asking a Christian "do you believe in Odin?" and when they say no responding with "why are you angry with Odin?" It makes no sense. The professor in the movie is therefore not an atheist, but someone who is really mad at a god they believe in, so they say they don't believe in that god to... I don't know, piss him off? make the god sad? Whatever the case may be, he is not actually an atheist.

Not everyone has beef with God, but those that do are still atheists.

People's motives for not believing in God are often more complex than "they just don't." At least if they're from a western culture. Most international students here from Asia never heard of who Jesus is, so they don't have any sort of bias or poor experience with God. (So asian international students might be a good demographic representation of actual atheists / agnostics)

Even if it doesn't philosophically jive with atheism, people who are angry with God and actively avoid worshiping him / claiming his existence still associate themselves with atheism. So we talk about them using their self given title.

Allow me to explain this to you, even though someone has already explained it to you.

If you have a "beef" with God, you are not an Atheist, you are probably a misotheist or maltheist. In order to have a "beef" with a god, you have to have a belief in a god.

If you are an atheist, you do not have a belief in any gods, and so you have no "beefs" with any gods. You might say that a particular god of a particular religion seems evil in the context of the stories the god is a character in, just like people say Voldemort is evil.

Some people might claim to be atheist, while expressing some sort of belief in a god. Those people don't know what atheism means.

Got it?

I don't really know of anyone who calls themselves atheist who apparently has "beef" with God or any deities. That's just silly. They're mad at something they don't believe in?

I know plenty of atheists who have crazy beef with God's fanbase, but not God, really. lol

I think the only wannabe atheists I've met are in the movies, but I assumed this person might think they exist in real life. Hey, maybe there are some like that?

[Turnilk]

rmcdra

Thank you, I wasn't trying to take over the conversation. Krevyetka basically hit a nerve. Hell everyone who has been praising how true or inspiring this movie is has been hitting a nerve with me. My college experience was where I saw some of the darker side of religion, specifically Christianity. I saw some flickers of the light that it appeals to me so it wasn't all bad, I mean I had professors I greatly admired that were Christian and weren't like the rest of the town; but most of the town pretty much exemplified many of the negative stereotypes you hear about Christians.

I didn't think you were taking over, just participating.

I've only seen discussions and reviews about it that say it wasn't good for nearly anyone. Then again, I am a bit biased when it comes to picking out review or discussion topics. I try to pick ones that point out the goods and bads not just hold it up as the "awsomest thing evar!" Anyone who does that for anything gets put on my slap-if-I-ever-meet-in-real-life list. stare

I think its rather good that you got to see more than just one side of Christianity. Its great for helping people make up their own minds, while keeping them informed. Took me a very long time to see so many different types, pretty sure it didn't help one way or another.

[Turnilk]

Blood Valkyrie

Allow me to explain this to you, even though someone has already explained it to you.

If you have a "beef" with God, you are not an Atheist, you are probably a misotheist or maltheist. In order to have a "beef" with a god, you have to have a belief in a god.

If you are an atheist, you do not have a belief in any gods, and so you have no "beefs" with any gods. You might say that a particular god of a particular religion seems evil in the context of the stories the god is a character in, just like people say Voldemort is evil.

Some people might claim to be atheist, while expressing some sort of belief in a god. Those people don't know what atheism means.

Got it?

You weren't talking to me, but I am very glad you pointed out the correct descriptive words as to what type of person that was being described. I will memorize them for the future.

[rmcdra]

Turnilk

rmcdra

Thank you, I wasn't trying to take over the conversation. Krevyetka basically hit a nerve. Hell everyone who has been praising how true or inspiring this movie is has been hitting a nerve with me. My college experience was where I saw some of the darker side of religion, specifically Christianity. I saw some flickers of the light that it appeals to me so it wasn't all bad, I mean I had professors I greatly admired that were Christian and weren't like the rest of the town; but most of the town pretty much exemplified many of the negative stereotypes you hear about Christians.

I didn't think you were taking over, just participating.

I've only seen discussions and reviews about it that say it wasn't good for nearly anyone. Then again, I am a bit biased when it comes to picking out review or discussion topics. I try to pick ones that point out the goods and bads not just hold it up as the "awsomest thing evar!" Anyone who does that for anything gets put on my slap-if-I-ever-meet-in-real-life list. stare

I think its rather good that you got to see more than just one side of Christianity. Its great for helping people make up their own minds, while keeping them informed. Took me a very long time to see so many different types, pretty sure it didn't help one way or another.

It was a troubling time and it is a time that I would not want to go back and relive (especially since it was coupled with developing hormones I didn't fully understand) but I am glad to be aware of it and that I have the confidence now to call it out when I see it.

[Astra the Fae]

I actually didn't hear about this movie until...maybe a couple of days ago when I was reading an article that Entertainment Weekly did on the Christian-esque movies coming out.

Anyway, the only time I've ever talked with college professors or students was only online being that I took online courses, however going through elementary school to high school in Plano, TX, I can say that Plano's public school district has a very very serious zero tolerance policy that includes teachers not discussing their religious beliefs or political beliefs. They can't force their beliefs on the students regardless of their religion or even political beliefs. Doing so would ensure that they get fired in short. Plano doesn't really ******** around with that and I'm sure in most states it's like that.

Their policy even embraces other religious practices and even has rules against harrassment concerning other religions or secular people. However Plano Independent School District is the district that keeps getting sued because Christians can't have their children pass out candy canes telling of Christian origins, or that they won't list a Christian club on the website. Here's the irony though: Plano is a mostly Christian city with more than 40+ Churches on almost every street corner. I've actually sat on the bus one day and counted it them from my high school to my house out of boredom.

I honestly think it's a laughable moment if you look at the spread of religious beliefs in the States. Christianity has 76.5% of people in the US. As of 2004 there are 224 million people who are Christian. Compared to Jews which are 3.9 million people or 400k people who are Pagan. Growing up in Plano I've seen more discrimination against children who were not of the majority religion versus that of Christians. Most of the bullying I received was because I didn't adhere to the Christian religion.

Anyway, this will be another movie that I won't be seeing. Mainly because they don't factor in how Christians are really in the majority, and that Texas is so freaking Christian that we actually have a Merry Christmas Law. Makes me glad I'm not in high school anymore.

[K-r-e-v-y-e-t-k-a]

GunsmithKitten

K-r-e-v-y-e-t-k-a

The higher up in education you go, the more you see people who either don't know God or really hate him. On a secular university campus, it really does sometimes seem like you're alone, and in every science course (even the social sciences) God is unwelcome. A lot of Christians also turn away from God around their college years as well.

You'd have liked it where I was then. Christianity everywhere.

Also, it's science class, not theology or religious studies.

Not necessarily. There are benefits to knowing a lot of other Christians in the area, but there are disadvantages as well. There are a lot of issues that are internal to Christianity and church division that can make it equally as frustrating. Not everyone who identifies themselves as a Christian actually is one (when it comes to belief, world view, lifestyle, etc) because in some ways it is in part its own form of culture. Within the culture exist just as many assholes as there are outside of it as well, so it's something that is always a constant source of frustration whenever you're doing anything in leadership especially.

In the end, people are people. And within a culture there can be many subcultures, and sometimes there is tension between them (even if on their face they seem really similar). I'm sure you've seen it, so I don't have to explain it much.

And yeah, science classes are where they teach you science. But it shouldn't be as dogmatically presented as it is. Even squishy sciences like sociology like to present their findings as objective truths, even though all they are ( at least some of the time ) are products of equally squishy statistics and correlations. Correlation does not imply causation, although science does love to present it that way. No finding in science can ever conclusively "prove" that God doesn't exist, but not a lot of professors (that have anything to do with life sciences) will tell you that. Dogmatically, God is dead, and is only relevant as a cultural phenomenon (which, depending on the context, varies between borderline saying that God is unimportant and irrelevant to life at all and saying that the theist scientists in the room are unwelcome / delusional.)

I have no idea what your background in science is, but mine is basically concentrated in biological anthropology and I have a pretty good background in sociology and cultural anthropology. So I see religion's place as an important cultural element, a personal truth, and as separate from the model of evolution. I'm not perturbed by science and evolution somehow "disproving" my God, because I know that it can't. It's science, not metaphysics.

The place of religion in a science classroom is basically to be respectfully excluded from review. We are here to discuss a model that we can gather evidence for, not use an imperfect model to try to discredit something that comes from an entirely different form of knowledge to begin with.

[K-r-e-v-y-e-t-k-a]

Turnilk

...

Blood Valkyrie

...

rmcdra

...

Sorry guys, I'd quote you all in detail but that would be too much and there are similar ideas between the posts anyway.

In my first post I already admitted knowledge of the fact that the people who self-identify as atheists aren't strictly atheists philosophically. Meaning, they could be a variety of different things; misotheism is one of them. Culturally, they're grouped under the same tree as atheism either through self identification or labeling from others. That association has absolutely nothing to do with how accurate they are as representations of atheism.

So I'm honestly not surprised that the producers of the movie didn't make that distinction. As a character, the professor was the stand-in for basically everyone actively against Christianity (excluding other prominent theist groups) and they didn't want him to remain the "villain" in the movie. To give the character some sense of redemption, they made the audience pity him because apparently "his wife died from cancer." (I didn't see the movie, so I have no idea how it ended) Either way, they didn't want him to be categorized as anything other than atheist in the end (because that's what he was standing in for) -- they just wanted to try to redeem the guy by giving him a motive that would resonate compassionately with the audience. Does that make him a misotheist, technically? Perhaps. But that wasn't the writers' intentions.

As for how people categorize themselves as atheists when they're not.... Yeah. It sucks for you guys. Just as much as it sucks for me to go to a church and see people who self-identify as Christians but actually aren't. They are grouped into the category of Christianity though, and we've learned to deal with it. In normal movies, where Christians are mentioned, they're similarly represented by our loudest (most frustratingly inaccurate) groups as well. Call it even, albeit unpleasant.

[rmcdra]

K-r-e-v-y-e-t-k-a

Turnilk

...

Blood Valkyrie

...

rmcdra

...

Sorry guys, I'd quote you all in detail but that would be too much and there are similar ideas between the posts anyway.

In my first post I already admitted knowledge of the fact that the people who self-identify as atheists aren't strictly atheists philosophically. Meaning, they could be a variety of different things; misotheism is one of them. Culturally, they're grouped under the same tree as atheism either through self identification or labeling from others. That association has absolutely nothing to do with how accurate they are as representations of atheism.

So I'm honestly not surprised that the producers of the movie didn't make that distinction. As a character, the professor was the stand-in for basically everyone actively against Christianity (excluding other prominent theist groups) and they didn't want him to remain the "villain" in the movie. To give the character some sense of redemption, they made the audience pity him because apparently "his wife died from cancer." (I didn't see the movie, so I have no idea how it ended) Either way, they didn't want him to be categorized as anything other than atheist in the end (because that's what he was standing in for) -- they just wanted to try to redeem the guy by giving him a motive that would resonate compassionately with the audience. Does that make him a misotheist, technically? Perhaps. But that wasn't the writers' intentions.

As for how people categorize themselves as atheists when they're not.... Yeah. It sucks for you guys. Just as much as it sucks for me to go to a church and see people who self-identify as Christians but actually aren't. They are grouped into the category of Christianity though, and we've learned to deal with it. In normal movies, where Christians are mentioned, they're similarly represented by our loudest (most frustratingly inaccurate) groups as well. Call it even, albeit unpleasant.

If they are angry at a god and thus believe in a god, then they are not atheists even if they identify as such. They are mistaken in thinking that they are atheists. I doubt though that misotheist represent a large portion of the atheist community and is just an apologetic given by certain Christians as to why someone would not believe in a god.

[K-r-e-v-y-e-t-k-a]

rmcdra

K-r-e-v-y-e-t-k-a

Turnilk

...

Blood Valkyrie

...

rmcdra

...

Sorry guys, I'd quote you all in detail but that would be too much and there are similar ideas between the posts anyway.

In my first post I already admitted knowledge of the fact that the people who self-identify as atheists aren't strictly atheists philosophically. Meaning, they could be a variety of different things; misotheism is one of them. Culturally, they're grouped under the same tree as atheism either through self identification or labeling from others. That association has absolutely nothing to do with how accurate they are as representations of atheism.

So I'm honestly not surprised that the producers of the movie didn't make that distinction. As a character, the professor was the stand-in for basically everyone actively against Christianity (excluding other prominent theist groups) and they didn't want him to remain the "villain" in the movie. To give the character some sense of redemption, they made the audience pity him because apparently "his wife died from cancer." (I didn't see the movie, so I have no idea how it ended) Either way, they didn't want him to be categorized as anything other than atheist in the end (because that's what he was standing in for) -- they just wanted to try to redeem the guy by giving him a motive that would resonate compassionately with the audience. Does that make him a misotheist, technically? Perhaps. But that wasn't the writers' intentions.

As for how people categorize themselves as atheists when they're not.... Yeah. It sucks for you guys. Just as much as it sucks for me to go to a church and see people who self-identify as Christians but actually aren't. They are grouped into the category of Christianity though, and we've learned to deal with it. In normal movies, where Christians are mentioned, they're similarly represented by our loudest (most frustratingly inaccurate) groups as well. Call it even, albeit unpleasant.

If they are angry at a god and thus believe in a god, then they are not atheists even if they identify as such. They are mistaken in thinking that they are atheists. I doubt though that misotheist represent a large portion of the atheist community and is just an apologetic given by certain Christians as to why someone would not believe in a god.

In case of the movie, it might be an apologetic. In practice, not many Christians make sweeping assumptions like that. At least I hope not. It's not something I've seen too often in my church.


Misotheism/atheism will have to be sorted out within its own grouping though. I've honestly never met an atheist that didn't admit prior belief (and later disbelief) because of God spiting or ignoring them. The closest I've heard to atheism actually came from a self deacribed agnostic. It's kinda weird.