The Challengers: OOC Thread

[Kaun_Angelfire]

Tegian

Kaun_Angelfire

Tegian

Kaun_Angelfire

So what do you guys think about the fact that they are going to turn Thor into a woman?

I honestly think this is a fantastic move. Yes, as Siris said, they could have just created a new character but if you've taken a look at comics in the past, female leads tend not to gain any traction, especially not straight away. Taking a set character and adding boobs is NOT going to change the character. This s**t between the sexes needs to ******** stop and Marvel is trying to take a step in that direction. And honestly, Thor is a God[dess], why is it so hard to think that someone of such immense power couldn't be whatever sex they want?

Long and short, Thor is Thor no matter the parts so people need to calm down about this.

Same to go with 'turning a white character black' Wtf, white men need to get off their high horses and realize there are other races, sexes, genders and everything else and they NEED representation in the media. Best way to do that in comics at this point in time is to do exactly what Marvel [and DC] is doing.


/micro rant

But back to the original comment, I personally have nothing against the idea of Thor becoming unworthy for some reason to wield the hammer and that a woman would be chosen by the hammer to carry it for how ever long she would have it (could be for the next 20 years or more) but I just sincerely hope they will not call her Thor cause that would be so silly and kinda stupid.

This is not Thor 'becoming unworthy'. this is not some other lady being chosen by the hammer. This IS Thor, THOR is a WOMAN. It's not silly or stupid, it's a great idea that will give women a strong rolemodel in comics and visual media with an already established fanbase and a strong story that people resonate with. If you'd read my previous comment, you would understand this.

Hey this is what it said in the article:

"This October, Marvel Comics evolves once again in one of the most shocking and exciting changes ever to shake one of Marvel’s "big three" – Captain American, Iron Man and Thor – Marvel Comics will be introducing an all-new THOR, GOD OF THUNDER. No longer is the classic male hero able to hold the mighty hammer, Mjölnir, a brand new female hero will emerge who will be worthy of the name THOR. Who is she? Where did she come from and what is her connection to Asgard and the Marvel Universe?

"The inscription on Thor’s hammer reads ‘Whosoever holds this hammer, if HE be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor.’ Well it’s time to update that inscription," says Marvel editor Will Moss. "The new Thor continues Marvel’s proud tradition of strong female characters like Captain Marvel, Storm, Black Widow and more. And this new Thor isn’t a temporary female substitute – she’s now the one and only Thor, and she is worthy!"

Series writer Jason Aaron emphasizes, "This is not She-Thor. This is not Lady Thor. This is not Thorita. This is THOR. This is the THOR of the Marvel Universe. But it’s unlike any Thor we’ve ever seen before."

THOR is the latest in the ever-growing and long list of female-centric titles that continues to invite new readers into the Marvel Universe. This female THOR is the 8th title to feature a lead female protagonist and aims to speak directly to an audience that long was not the target for Super Hero comic books in America: women and girls."


And I did not mean that Thor becoming female was stupid, I was saying that calling a woman Thor is stupid because Thor is a mans name, many men in Iceland are named Thor (Þór)
My own son has it as a middle name and no he is not named after the Marvel character but after the original thunder god.

[Roskuel]

Before I enter this debate, let me point out: I am vastly supportive of strong women (And am very attracted to them, because ditzy just ain't my thing). I also hold a strong belief that more ethnic groups, women, and gays should be fed into our media in the most positive way possible.

That said...

This particular move by Marvel is not only unnecessary, but also moronic (in a business sense), insulting to men and women alike, and down right lazy!

Most of these accusations can be proven by one quote that, mind you, is not in the least bit taken out of context:
"...aims to speak directly to an audience that long was not the target for Super Hero comic books in America: women and girls."

First, it's unnecessary
The fact that women and girls are getting into comic books is not based solely on the fact that there are women figures. It's because comic books have (finally) become popular all the way around, bringing in a more diverse crowd. So, changing it for the sake of the new audience is completely unnecessary. The women/girls are reading comics because they have found an interest that, until recently, was even frowned upon.

Second, it is moronic (business wise)
Women and girls enjoy comics for the same reason most men/boys do. Good story, great characters, and a lush world with endless possibilities. The females who have expressed a whole hearted love for these stories are not focused on whether it is male or female.. the character makes the story. Thor, a Norse God in mythology, and popular comic hero is loved by male and female alike. I guarantee that it won't only be the thick headed, testosterone filled boys that shun this change. It will also be the females attached to his story. They are DOING AWAY with the original, replacing him, "This is the THOR of the Marvel Universe." People are going to be pissed. If not because of their blind dominant male views, then by the fact that they are losing something they hold dear. People will get over it in the long run... but not any time soon.

Third, it's an insult to us all,
Let me start this one out with a quote: "This is not She-Thor. This is not Lady Thor. This is not Thorita. This is THOR." Okay, so they are trying emphasize that giving a female a male's 'Title' is showing equal opportunity. I'm cool with that. What I'm not cool with, is that they are pulling this into an entirely different discussion. The hook is no longer, 'A female can be the protector of earth, goddess of thunder'. The hook has become, 'THOR is a girl, so you can suck it!'. This is the insult to the male gender. Just as women have been pushed around for centuries, being forced into servitude for so called 'man'kind, men have been branded with a label of: You're a meat head, a lowlife, a bully, a pile of muscle with no redeeming qualities. I say.. ******** that. Make a female Thor character, I want to see how her story plays out. It sounds like a beautiful concept, but you can take that concept and shove it up your a** if you are going to make it out like a man cannot walk away with the dignity of keeping his own name. They are putting it forward as if 'Thor' is an idea and not a name. Thor is his NAME. God/Goddess of thunder; those are titles that can be passed along. Taking his name and splashing it along the front of the comic book when he is not the character the book is about is wrong (which btw is exactly what they are doing and I quote: "You pick up this book and it just says "Thor" on the cover, which features a new female version of Thor." - Jason Aaron). If someone took my name (Robert) and wrote a book based on a girl, putting little to no actual 'Robert' in it, but keeping my name as the title.... It would be insulting, not to mention confusing. They are taking Thor out of 'Thor' just to set up a female character.

How is it insulting to females you ask? You may think this is a great step in female media.. it's not. I absolutely adore human equality, but do you know what I despise... people trying to be who they are not to fill their own "Anything you can do, I can do better" complex. Tegi makes a great argument for women, and I respect him for that. They need to be seen for what they can accomplish. However, this is taking it a little far. Hold onto the fact that I feel that a Female put in Thor's position would be wonderful to see. Ladies, tomboys, lend me your ears (or eyes in this case). What if I told you: "You can be the protector of earth... but... you'll have to get rid of that beautiful name and take on a (stereotypical) 'man-ish' persona." You would say ******** no, wouldn't you? Give up what defines you? If you are a strong woman, you would hold onto what makes you, you. Saying that "...This is not Lady Thor..." is an insult! What's wrong with Lady Thor? Is being a 'Lady' something terrible? If so, does that mean being a woman is a terrible thing? ******** no it isn't! If it's going to be a Female Protector of Earth to replace Thor, she needs to be a SHE, not a HE with tits! Women should be proud of being women. Females can do just as much as males, but for different reasons. I'm tired of seeing women trying to strive to be men. They say they are feminists, but they are not supporting females and their strengths. They are trying to become men. What's wrong with what you are? NOTHING! What's truly wrong is the way meat heads perceive you and treat you. Women trying to be more like men are fighting fire with fire.. when you do that, the fire grows. Let me clarify... Being a man has nothing to do with hobbies, jobs, number of shots he can take in an hour, or brute strength (which is what most women try to prove they can do just as well)... Being a man is about priding yourself in your work, being confident, taking care of your loved ones, being honest, doing whatever it takes to be the best damn human you can be. Being a woman is about priding yourself in your work, being confident, taking care of your loved ones, being honest, doing whatever it takes to be the best damn human you can... wait a second.. I sense some similarities here... in fact.. they are exactly the ******** SAME! Being as good as a man is not about being physically stronger, being able to work on cars, or telling your wimpy husband to go make you a sandwich. A woman cannot, and will never be able to be on the same level as men by trying to become like them.... because they are already equal to men just the way they are. This is why, the way Marvel is going about this is insulting. They are literally taking that so-called 'feminist view' (the one that says "You have to give up being a woman to be as good as (or better than) a man".) and using it to BRING IN FEMALE CUSTOMERS. Let me say that again... They are taking a man and displaying it as a woman to bring in women... That makes a s**t ton of sense right? Of course not. You're smarter than that. You are Woman.. and I love to hear you roar.

Last, is LAZY
They did not have to change the gender of Thor, instead they could have made an equally NEW (You'll see why I say 'new' by the end of my debate) charismatic goddess that becomes the protector of earth through some right of passage. A new weapon forged for her, to compliment her strengths. Thor, stepping aside, or even leading this new character through her trials to become a hero. She is her own person, goes down her own path. Female characters did not gain much traction before BECAUSE guys were expected to read about heroes, while women were given kitchen sets. They were seen as "boy" related by society which is why it was not often for girls to be exposed to it. Now that females are open to it and exposed to it, traction would not be a problem. They did not want to put the time and effort into bringing about a new character that fans would adore. They are using a character that has already been a part of Thor's story from what I have read in interviews, but say that for a long time, no one will know who this 'Thor' is. Not even a name will be given until it is revealed in the comics.

I know it was long.. but if it's all the same to you, I hope you enjoyed my view on this.. maybe even learned something. Merry Sunday to All, and to All Equal Rights!

[Orojed13]

Good Morning to All! If you need some help feeling inspired for the day, try this one for size; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RglMIKG0GFw.

[Silquestnocte]

Roskuel

*Slow clapping*

That entire post was fantastic.

[Sanokun711]

Angry.. I had posted as Seth & Jr last night just for my internet to crap out when I hit the post button.. :/ Lost both post sad

[Wilhelm3]

Roskuel

A very long and well-thought-out post. While I respectfully disagree with some of your comments, both you and Tegian are correct and bring up great points. However, one thing I do want to add:

While you're correct that making Thor female angers people because it changes a character that they are already a fan of, and have grown accustomed to, creating a new character (as Tegian said) will not gain traction quickly. I'd like to point to a character created by DC in an attempt to bring more diversity: a new, Arabian Green Lantern, Simon Baz.

Now, while I haven't read the Justice League arc where he was introduced, I have read several of the stories that followed, including the Justice League of America where he served with heroes like Stargirl, Martian Manhunter, and Green Arrow. Green Lantern is one of the most critical componets of a team--one of the most powerful and imaginative.

Here's the issue: I didn't care about Simon Baz. Neither did most other readers. We already had characters we were invested in taking part in the JLA, and there are 4 other GLs (5 if you count Alan Scott in Earth-2) who we do care about. Hal Jordan, John Stewart, Kyle Rayner, and Guy Gardner.

The JLA lasted for 2 volumes, lead into Forever Evil (an enormous crossover) and was disbanded. Several of its members have been shifted into the Justice League United, but Simon isn't one of them. Because of story reasons, he isn't in Green Lantern, Green Lantern Corps, or New Guardians, (the other GL-centric books) either. Frankly, he's fizzled out and died. Not literally, but no one cares about him.

That's an issue with comics as a whole: to many fans, the status quo is sacred. Add a new character, and no one cares. Why read about Simon Baz mucking about on a B-list team when Guy Gardner is struggling to break free of the Red Lantern Corps?

Part of that comes from writing--people will follow great creative teams--but in my opinion, to diversify comics, you HAVE to change existing characters. Wally West is black in the New 52. If there was a new Flash who happened to be black, would anyone care? Not as long as Barry Allen's around, and he's already died in comics once already.

I support Marvel's decision. I think changing one of their most famous, long-running characters into a woman is a great move. If nothing else, an "action girl" instead of another white, muscly, thirtysomething makes for a better character, in my opinion. They're still the same PERSON--personality and experiences won't have changed, if written well--but happens to be female now. And I am OK with that.

[Orojed13]

Now... an arguement that no one has brought up. Why is it right that women get to take what's a guys just because they aren't creative enough to create something new that can make her own place in the comic world?I like Thor and look up to him. If you take him and make him a her by simply adding a large... er... chest you still haven't incorporated anything as a female to the comic world, but you have taken away my role model.

[Roskuel]

Wilhelm3

Roskuel

A very long and well-thought-out post. While I respectfully disagree with some of your comments, both you and Tegian are correct and bring up great points. However, one thing I do want to add:

While you're correct that making Thor female angers people because it changes a character that they are already a fan of, and have grown accustomed to, creating a new character (as Tegian said) will not gain traction quickly. I'd like to point to a character created by DC in an attempt to bring more diversity: a new, Arabian Green Lantern, Simon Baz.

Now, while I haven't read the Justice League arc where he was introduced, I have read several of the stories that followed, including the Justice League of America where he served with heroes like Stargirl, Martian Manhunter, and Green Arrow. Green Lantern is one of the most critical componets of a team--one of the most powerful and imaginative.

Here's the issue: I didn't care about Simon Baz. Neither did most other readers. We already had characters we were invested in taking part in the JLA, and there are 4 other GLs (5 if you count Alan Scott in Earth-2) who we do care about. Hal Jordan, John Stewart, Kyle Rayner, and Guy Gardner.

The JLA lasted for 2 volumes, lead into Forever Evil (an enormous crossover) and was disbanded. Several of its members have been shifted into the Justice League United, but Simon isn't one of them. Because of story reasons, he isn't in Green Lantern, Green Lantern Corps, or New Guardians, (the other GL-centric books) either. Frankly, he's fizzled out and died. Not literally, but no one cares about him.

That's an issue with comics as a whole: to many fans, the status quo is sacred. Add a new character, and no one cares. Why read about Simon Baz mucking about on a B-list team when Guy Gardner is struggling to break free of the Red Lantern Corps?

Part of that comes from writing--people will follow great creative teams--but in my opinion, to diversify comics, you HAVE to change existing characters. Wally West is black in the New 52. If there was a new Flash who happened to be black, would anyone care? Not as long as Barry Allen's around, and he's already died in comics once already.

I support Marvel's decision. I think changing one of their most famous, long-running characters into a woman is a great move. If nothing else, an "action girl" instead of another white, muscly, thirtysomething makes for a better character, in my opinion. They're still the same PERSON--personality and experiences won't have changed, if written well--but happens to be female now. And I am OK with that.

Thanks for a reply. I was hoping someone might mrgreen . I will not argue that you've made some good points, because you have. I will debate whether or not they are relevant to my points, however.

The character you pointed to (Green Lantern):
As even yourself said "there are 4 other GLs". The problem with using him as a reference 'is' the fact he has already been remodeled time and time again. If this had been the fifth or sixth Thor, then I could see why there would be no traction in a brand new character, but this is not the case.

Another quote, if you don't mind: "I didn't care about Simon Baz. Neither did most other readers. We already had characters we were invested in taking part in the JLA" You pretty much proved my point right there. Mainly because, while this new Thor may not be "right out of the box" new, it is still a character that is not Thor himself. It is a character that is 'replacing' one that people are already invested in.

As I said in my original points:
I think making a Female Thor is a great idea. However, I also believe the way they are going about this is moronic and even insulting. Thor will never be Thor again. I'm not just saying these things out of ignorance or even nostalgia. What happened when Supergirl became a thing in DC? People ate it up. Batgirl? Same. And to this day, they are popular icons. They didn't get rid of Batman to become diverse. They just added to his legacy. I guarantee that if Batman were to be taken out of the picture entirely.. the comic would have failed. This is exactly what Marvel is doing with Thor; taking out what started it all.

[Silquestnocte]

Orojed13

Now... an arguement that no one has brought up. Why is it right that women get to take what's a guys just because they aren't creative enough to create something new that can make her own place in the comic world?I like Thor and look up to him. If you take him and make him a her by simply adding a large... er... chest you still haven't incorporated anything as a female to the comic world, but you have taken away my role model.

I hate to be the one saying this, by how does the addition of mammary glands and ovaries change then fact that they're still a good character? Just saying, it really doesn't matter what gender a person is, as long as they're a good person. Jesus is my role model, but I don't have testicles. *shrug*

And also, the team behind the new Thor line is a buch of white guys.

[Kaun_Angelfire]

Quote:

siris99

Quote:

Roskuel

So I just thought I would remind you guys that you can post for either Ace or Declan, you know keep the training going and stuff, if thats cool with you guys. I mean if its all cool with you guys to post...

[Wilhelm3]

Orojed13

Now... an arguement that no one has brought up. Why is it right that women get to take what's a guys just because they aren't creative enough to create something new that can make her own place in the comic world?I like Thor and look up to him. If you take him and make him a her by simply adding a large... er... chest you still haven't incorporated anything as a female to the comic world, but you have taken away my role model.

That's a great point! I think it's largely motivated by the fact that, relatively speaking, there aren't a lot of "big" female characters in comics. There are a lot of women, don't get me wrong--but the presentation ratio is off. The Avengers movie, for example. The only female character on the team was Black Widow, who, let's be honest, didn't do very much. (more than Hawkeye, but still). If we're going to follow demographics of earth, and assume that superpowers are distributed evenly, then there should be a 1:1 ratio of men to women, or close to it. Instead, we got a 5:1 ratio, which IMO kind of sucks.

Silenced Nocturne

I hate to be the one saying this, by how does the addition of mammary glands and ovaries change then fact that they're still a good character? Just saying, it really doesn't matter what gender a person is, as long as they're a good person. Jesus is my role model, but I don't have testicles. *shrug*

And also, the team behind the new Thor line is a buch of white guys.

Touche. It's better to focus on how characters are written, rather than what we are. Hell, denying what other people want you to be based on birth is HUGE in comics (I read 2 completely seperate arcs today alone that focused on that). So Thor being a woman now doesn't really change the character that much--and IMO, I don't think it should.

quote="Roskuel"]The character you pointed to (Green Lantern):
As even yourself said "there are 4 other GLs". The problem with using him as a reference 'is' the fact he has already been remodeled time and time again. If this had been the fifth or sixth Thor, then I could see why there would be no traction in a brand new character, but this is not the case.

That's actually a great point I hadn't considred. Thor has consistently been Thor--some characterization has changed, but the character himself has still remained. This is both good and bad--consistency makes for better long-term storytelling, but the character can get stale after a while. There's only so far you can go without getting boring. I think shaking it up a little and going from there is the way to go.

quote="Roskuel"]Mainly because, while this new Thor may not be "right out of the box" new, it is still a character that is not Thor himself. It is a character that is 'replacing' one that people are already invested in.

It may come from me being a mythology nut, but I fundamentally disagree with you there. No offense met, and I see where you're coming from, but I still think it's incorrect. Thor's not being replaced by a new character, according to Marvel. Thor's just changing things up, which the gods have shown themselves to be perfectly capable of. All the time.

Roskuel

As I said in my original points:
I think making a Female Thor is a great idea. However, I also believe the way they are going about this is moronic and even insulting. Thor will never be Thor again. I'm not just saying these things out of ignorance or even nostalgia. What happened when Supergirl became a thing in DC? People ate it up. Batgirl? Same. And to this day, they are popular icons. They didn't get rid of Batman to become diverse. They just added to his legacy. I guarantee that if Batman were to be taken out of the picture entirely.. the comic would have failed. This is exactly what Marvel is doing with Thor; taking out what started it all.

Good point, very good point. However, even this long after their creation, those characters are still struggling to avoid just being "Batman/Superman with boobs." Now, granted, this may be what the new Thor is--but I think that's OK. Instead of having a new female character come out of nowhere who isn't very unique or interesting (and therefore failing the original objective in the first place), making the original character female adds all that history and experience. It's not a replacement, it's a character upgrade.

[Kaun_Angelfire]

Just a heads up guys, you should be ready for the site to go down again because there, as you most likely have noticed by now, is something wrong with the daily change system. I just got 125000 gold from it and some hearts for the fusion thing. Which is way better then the usual 100 to 300 gold and small stuff you get.

[Orojed13]

Kaun_Angelfire

Just a heads up guys, you should be ready for the site to go down again because there, as you most likely have noticed by now, is something wrong with the daily change system. I just got 125000 gold from it and some hearts for the fusion thing. Which is way better then the usual 100 to 300 gold and small stuff you get.

Thanks for the tip

[Silquestnocte]

Kaun_Angelfire

Just a heads up guys, you should be ready for the site to go down again because there, as you most likely have noticed by now, is something wrong with the daily change system. I just got 125000 gold from it and some hearts for the fusion thing. Which is way better then the usual 100 to 300 gold and small stuff you get.

I think they might just be changing the daily chance amounts, I got 75000 gold. I dunno what's up, but I like it!

[Kaun_Angelfire]

Orojed13

Kaun_Angelfire

Just a heads up guys, you should be ready for the site to go down again because there, as you most likely have noticed by now, is something wrong with the daily change system. I just got 125000 gold from it and some hearts for the fusion thing. Which is way better then the usual 100 to 300 gold and small stuff you get.

Thanks for the tip

No problem smile