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Tarik Keyhand

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:05 am


Evolution - From Goo to You via the Zoo

Many people talk about evolution as if it were a fact. Well, in some ways it is. Change over time and decent with modification have been observed and proven to be true. But Darwinists say more than that. They say all species have descended from one common ancestor. Well, it is an interesting theory… unfortunately that’s all it is. Here is why macroevolution is impossible.

1. Genetic Limits -
There seem to be genetic limits to how much a species can change. For example dog breeders may be able to breed (with intelligence) different dog types, but dogs still remain dogs. Also scientists have done many experiments with fruit flies, but have never produced anything but fruit flies. If intelligent scientists are unable to produce new life forms than why should we expect non-intelligent natural selection to be able to?

2. Cyclical Change - When evolution has occurred is also appears to only shift back and forth on a limited range. For example Darwin’s finches with varying beak sizes changed during the wet and dry seasons, but they always remained finches.

3. Irreducible Complexity - Something that is irreducible complex is something that could not be made with successive changes over time because they would not work unless completely put together. The classic example is a mouse trap. All its parts must work together to catch mice.
[INDENT]Cilia - Cilia are whip-like hairs on the surface of cells. In the respiratory tract they sweet mucus out and on sperm cells they can row. With electron microscopes scientists have discovered cilia are complicated molecular machines. A cilium is made up of about two hundred protein parts. It’s very complicated, but basically there are rods, linkers, and motors which are all necessary for the sliding motion of the cilia.
Bacterial Flagellum - Flagellum is a rotary propeller. Only bacteria have them. The flagellum propeller is long and whip-like. This is attached to a drive shaft by hook protein which acts as a universal joint. It gets its energy from a flow of acid through the bacterial membrane. The propeller can spin at 10,000 rpm. It is very complicated but it needs at least three parts, a paddle, a rotor, and a motor which are all made up of various proteins. Eliminate one of these parts and you get a flagellum that doesn’t work at all.
Blood Clotting - Blood clotting must be done perfectly to work. To create a perfectly balanced blood-clotting system, clusters of protein components have to be inserted all at once. How can blood clotting develop over time, step by step, when in the meantime the animal has no effective way to stop from bleeding to death? Natural selection only works is there is something useful right now. [/INDENT]
There are plenty of other irreducible complex things. It seems like almost everything from eyes to DNA and RNA depend on so many things to work. Darwinists have no good explanations to irreducible complexity.

4. Nonviability of Transitional Forms - A problem for natural selection creating new life forms is that the transitional forms would be unlikely to survive. An example of this is reptiles evolving to birds. Reptiles with wings are not going to be able to fly. The wings would simply slow it down. It would be easy prey on land or air. Also the first sea creatures that developed lungs are probably not going to do so hot.

5. Molecule Isolation - Darwinists say the fact that all living creatures contain DNA is evidence for common descent. That could be true. But it also could be evidence for a creator who designed us all to live in the same biosphere. A problem for Darwinists is that is all species share a common ancestor, we should expect to find protein sequences that are transitional from, say, fish to amphibian, or from reptile to mammal. Instead, we find that the basic types of protein sequences are molecularly isolated from one another, which seems to be against any type of ancestral relationship.

6. Fossil Record -
Contrary to what most people think. The fossil record is a complete embarrassment to Darwinists. If macroevolution occurred there should be thousands if not millions of transitional fossils by now. Nearly all the major animal groups known to exist appear in the fossil record abruptly and fully formed during the Cambrian period. This is come to be known as “the Cambrian explosion” or “biology big bang.” Until then the record shows only jellyfish, sponges, and worms, but then at the beginning of the Cambrian suddenly there are arthropods, echinoderms, and chordates. Paleontologists now think that during a five-million-year (or even shorter) window of time, at least twenty and as many as thirty five of the world’s forty phyla, the highest category in the animal kingdom, sprang froth with unique body plans. As Harvard paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould (evolutionist) said:
Stephen Gould
The history of most fossil species includes two features particularly inconsistent with gradualism: 1). Stasis. Most species exhibit no directional change during their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record looking much the same as when they disappear; Morphological change is usually limited and directionless. 2) Sudden Appearance. In any local area, a species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors; it appears all at once and ‘fully formed.’
Instead of adopting creationism, Gould created a theory called Punctuated Equilibiria which suggests species evolved faster over a shorter period of time, thereby explaining the huge fossil gaps. Gould had no reasons how this could occur, but it shows how big of a problem Darwinists have.
You might be thinking about the skull progressions we’re so used to seeing. The problem with this is that the fossil record cannot establish ancestral relationships. According to Michael Denton:
Michael Denton
“99 percent of the biology of any organism resides in its soft anatomy, which is inaccessible in a fossil.”
Jonathan Wells says:
Jonathan Wells
“The fossil evidence is open to many interpretations because the fossil individual specimens can be reconstructed in a variety of ways, and because the fossil record cannot establish ancestor-descendant relationships.”
Henry Gee, chief science writer for Nature writes:
Henry Gee
"To take a line of fossils and claim that they represent lineage is not a scientific hypothesis that can be tested, but an assertion that carries the same validity as a bedtime story--amusing, perhaps even instructive, but not scientific."
Even with the millions of missing links the fossil record it is irrelevant according to Michael Behe:
Michael Behe
Anatomy is, quite simply, irrelevant to the question of whether evolution could take place on the molecular level. So is the fossil record. It no longer matters whether there are huge gaps in the fossil record or whether the record is as continuous as that of U.S. presidents. And if there are gaps, it does not matter whether they can be explained plausibly. The fossil record has nothing to tell us about whether the interactions of 11-cts-retinal with rhodopsin, transducin, and phosphodiesterase [irreducibly complex systems] could have developed step-by-step.


But wait… there’s more.

7. First Life - Life is far more complex than Charles Darwin ever could have known. We our technology we now know just how complex life is. In order to create life you must first get amino acids. You then must get them to bond correctly with each other, even though they bond more readily with other things to get them to form a protein. Then you must join enough proteins together in the right way to get a living cell. Darwinists simply have no idea on how this could happen. The popular Miller-Urey experiment that was said to create amino acids was in fact using the wrong atmosphere. Miller used a hydrogen-rich mixture of methane, ammonia, and water vapor, which was consistent with what many scientists thought back then. But scientists now believe hydrogen would have escaped into space, and instead the atmosphere would be composed up carbon dioxide, nitrogen, and water vapor. If you replay the experiment using an accurate atmosphere you don’t get amino acids. Long story short Darwinists have no idea how life could have occurred. All they can say is that there is a chance. Really they have no idea, but they say chance because they don’t know.


Information taken (and copied) from:

I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist by Norman L. Geisler and Frank Turek
and
The Case for a Creator by Lee Strobel


Thoughts?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:07 pm


Quote:
But Darwinists say more than that. They say all species have descended from one common ancestor. Well, it is an interesting theory… unfortunately that’s all it is. Here is why macroevolution is impossible.

Well, technically that's common descent, rather than evolution itself. And if you check our links page you'll see a few examples of "macro-evolution".

Quote:
1. Genetic Limits

Different species of dogs and fruit flies, though. Also, "Dog" is an arbitrary group of species of canines. There is no set limit when one group of species changes enough to no longer count as a member, it is entirely a human decision of whether it has changed enough, yet, or not. And there is no set limit to how much it can change. So this argument is ... useless.

Quote:
2. Cyclical Change

It is hardly surprising that when the environment changes cyclically, that creatures will do the same. And why would you expect them to be anything other than finches? If a finch gave birth to a goshawk that would more or less destroy the current theory of evolution. Not support it.

Quote:
3. Irreducible Complexity

Irreducible complexity is, at heart, nothing more than an argument from ignorance. It simply asserts that because the person making the argument is unaware of how it might be possible for some particular feature to evolve, it must therefore be impossible. It is more of less dead in the water at this point, as all of the examples that have been given have been shown to NOT be irreducibly complex.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe.html

That page about covers it. it probably goes into far more detail than you need, but it certainly covers all the examples you gave, and plenty more.

Quote:
4. Nonviability of Transitional Forms - A problem for natural selection creating new life forms is that the transitional forms would be unlikely to survive. An example of this is reptiles evolving to birds. Reptiles with wings are not going to be able to fly. The wings would simply slow it down. It would be easy prey on land or air. Also the first sea creatures that developed lungs are probably not going to do so hot.

This is simply not true. A "partial wing" is very useful. It allows for gliding, for rapid changes in direction, for efficient long distance running, and for wrapping around yourself to trap heat. It also allows you to look larger to potential predators.
All useful features.
And the development of rudimentary lungs is also useful, as it allows a creature to make use of an area where most other creatures cannot go. it would make it easy for them to escape predators, and give them a safe place to raise young, in tidal pools for example, or in other places isolated from the main body of water. It also gives them the ability to make use of wetlands that dry up during parts of the year, or where the water drops leaving a series of pools, rather than one large one. I would call that extremely useful.

Hardly non-viable.

Quote:
5. Molecule Isolation
Such things are not fossilised, so it's hardly surprising that we do not have examples from millions of years ago. Only those of creatures that survive today can be sampled, so why is a surprise that we can only sample those ones? And they are not "isolated" from one another, so much as they differentiated long ago and developed separately.

Quote:
6. Fossil Record

Transitional fossils exist for all major groups of animals. What you need to remember is that all fossils are transitional species, unless they go extinct. Contrary to your claim, the fossil record is a massive success for science. It is a massive sample of creatures that are long since dead, and that show a clear correlation between age and physiology, and that agrees with all the other forms of evidence to support the theory of evolution.

The cambrian explosion is one of the more interesting periods in biological history, but it is not a problem for evolution, or for scientists.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC300.html

And you should be very careful of quote mining.
Stephen Gould
The history of most fossil species includes two features particularly inconsistent with gradualism: 1). Stasis. Most species exhibit no directional change during their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record looking much the same as when they disappear; Morphological change is usually limited and directionless. 2) Sudden Appearance. In any local area, a species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors; it appears all at once and ‘fully formed.’

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/part1-2.html
It can be very embarrassing to be caught out doing it.
He was arguing that gradualism was not a satisfactory explanation, and was arguing for punctuated equilibrium. He was in no way casting doubt on the theory of evolution, itself. That particular debate is ongoing, and is beyond my ability to discuss in detail, It's beyond my level of education.

Michael Denton
“99 percent of the biology of any organism resides in its soft anatomy, which is inaccessible in a fossil.”

Why you find this surprising, or in any way a problem for evolution, I don't know. Care to enlighten me?

As to the rest of that section, no, taking two fossils it is not usually possible to be certain where they lie in the lineage. That's what palaeontologists spend their time studying, to be able to place fossils as accurately as is possible. Dating methods are, unfortunately, crude by their nature. But they do place fossils in age bands, and from there relative lines of succession can be made. The accuracy of which improves with every new discovery.

I've already linked to a page on BeHe's arguments, and frankly they are not related to fossils at all. He deals with molecular biology. And not very well, I might add. He seems to ignore all of the scientific literature on the subjects that he claims are not covered in them.

Quote:
7. First Life

Abiogenesis != evolution
And is not relevant to the validity of evolutionary theory, which deals with how life changes.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/

But I feel generous, so there ya go. That answers your points.

Oh, and the Urey-Miller experiment shows, categorically, that amino acids can be generated by processes that do not involve life. It doesn't matter if it didn't accurately model the nature of the atmosphere of the earth.

Redem
Captain


gigacannon
Crew

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:09 pm


The Bible says somewhere in Genesis that God created all kinds of animals. These 'kinds' are taken to mean 'species'. Young earth creationists interpret this to mean that God created all the species that ever would be, and it is based on this tenuous, indeed, dubious interpretation that creationists object to what they call 'macroevolution', or speciation.

Let's ignore the fact that the Bible doesn't say anywhere that new species can't arise (as far as I know) and that God might have just created all the animals at that point, and then they progressed from there. Let's also recall that although a number of species can share a common ancestor, and indeed all chordates for example do, it is unlikely that life had its origins in a single organism. The theory of evolution doesn't actually contradict certain statements in Genesis at all; the creationists are actually going on Biblical literalcy and inerrancy; they believe that their own single (old fashioned) interpretation of the Bible is the correct one, despite the fact that it clearly doesn't reflect reality. This is rather like believing that, "There is a brick wall in front of you," means, "Run forwards, and you get a free pie." They just keep falling down and getting up again and running for that pie.
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