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 Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 8:43 pm
i thought of it randomly, and now i'm fairly convinced about it. seriously, out of sseveral run ins with him, sepheroth seems to kill everyone EXEPT your party, personally i think he knew cloud is the only one who can stand up to him, and so he does his best to manipulate and anger cloud.
encounters with sepheroth also seem rather helpfull, such as his handing out the destruct materia and breaking the locks on the shinra holding cells
also, by the way it seemed, aerith probrably needed to return to the lifestream in order to make holy work, and by killing her he enabled holy and gave cloud more reason to hate him.
by using meteor he caused the weapons which were made specifically to fight jenova to come out, maybe a backup plan if cloud still failed, and by blocking holy, he drew cloud straight to him for the fight.
anyway, it looks like either sephy had some bit of sanity left and was playing himself for failure, or maybe it was an elaborate plan to destroy shinra and jenova both
any opinions on this?
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:00 pm
Hmm....you have an interesting perception on this...though, I must point out that one of your facts are incorrect. In order for Holy to work, Aeris didn't need to die since she already summoned Holy by praying for it. The only thing she did when she died was summon up the lifestream to block both holy and meteor. Sephiroth obviously didn't want anyone stopping his meteor. I think Sephy did want to fight Cloud...but he also wanted to take over the planet.
Though, I like your opinion about how Sephiroth wants to kill everyone but the main group. That might actually be true.
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:25 pm
Nice theory, I enjoyed it ^^.
It has a few quirks in it, but despite a few alternate possibilities and technicalities, it's a probable argument, so You get my seal of approval for a smart post! XD
But yeah, Holy had been summoned already when Aeris was killed; I can't say what happened when she died, so take Twindream's argument on the Lifestream summoning.
A few things bothered me, namely one issue:
1 - Sephiroth Wanted to Fight Cloud
This might be true, though it feels kind of Awkward. If the reason behind freeing Cloud (And in effect, the party) was because he wanted to fight him, then we would have to assume he had a firm grasp of who Cloud actually was (That being, the one who defeated him in Nibelheim.). This would work, if it wasn't for the fact that after you meet Sephiroth(?) on the Ship from Junon to Costa Del Sol, he doesn't recognize Cloud; At least not as if he had been tediously leading Cloud into a fight with him.
There is possibly an Explanation to counter this and prove your point, but that's my reasoning on it.
Another Suggestion is that Sephiroth was simply insane, whilst a more complex one would be that Sephiroth was prideful, Attempting to help Cloud and the Group grow Stronger, only so his projected victory over them would be all the more sweeter.
Other than that, I applaud you! This Guild needs topics like this!
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:26 pm
And to Clarify, I meant Freeing them from the ShinRa Main Building Holding Cells.
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:31 pm
aerith was praying for it, but they (and we'd) didnt find out what she was doing till long after her death. so its plausible she knew she was going to die
as for not recognising cloud, that might have just been to get cloud upset, whatsoever worse than the guy you've sworn to kill not knowing who you are?
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:54 pm
True... we didn't know what Aeris was really doing until after her death but there is in-game dialog pointing that Holy was fully summoned and Aeris' death was not nessicary to summon it.
"He tried to stop it but he couldn't." ... "Something is holding Holy back."
As for not killing Cloud and company... there's two reasons for that. The most logical, it would've ended the game.
But getting into actual character development, I think Sephiroth not killing Cloud and co. mostly because he wasn't threatened by them. Sephiroth actually does NOT kill everyone he encounters. Otherwise the team would have followed a genocide trail... but they mostly followed rumors and eye-witness testimony to find Sephiroth. Note... he never went after Aeris until she became a threat to his plans. Not to mention, within disc 1 and the first half of disc 2 Cloud actually helped progress his plans. Cloud shrank the temple for him... almost killed Aeris when she became a threat... and gave Sephiroth the black materia. Why bother killing them? They aren't really threatening him. Well, not until it was too late.
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:42 pm
A very good topic indeed. One I never thought of. But, I do have some arguements against the replies here.
1. Aeris' Death
The first sign of Holy was in the Temple of the Ancients. When Aeris and the rest of the party find the pool of mako in the room with the rolling rocks, she begins to talk to someone in her head. The voice is what guided her to Holy and told her how to summon it. On the walls in the corridor leading to the Temply Puzzle, it is written that Jenova had fallen from the sky 2000 years prior to the current date. When she fell, she created the Northern Crater, along with Gaea Cliffs. The Cetra found out she was a threat and summoned Holy once before, sacrificing nearly the entire race in order to save the planet from suffering the same fate.
City of the Ancients; Crystal Projector: Cloud and the party learn what Aeris was doing in the city and why Sephiroth killed her. She knew when coming to the city that she was going to die. As a matter of fact, that was her final objective. When a Cetra prays using the Holy Materia, they must "take the prayer to the LifeStream". There was only one way she could have done that, and that was to lose her life. After finishing the prayer, she looked up and saw Cloud once more before Sephiroth flew down and impaled her. She took the prayer to the LifeStream, then all hell broke loose as soon as Meteor was finally summoned. The Weapons reacted to the summoning of Meteor, they weren't summoned. And I'm sure Holy would have been summoned a lot sooner were it not for Sephiroth.
2. Sephiroth Not Killing the Party
I fully agree with Amylin on this one. Cloud was being used by Sephiroth to supply him with the Black Materia and to try and kill Aeris before she got the chance to summon Holy. Twice, once in the Temple of the Ancients ruins and once on the alter in the City of the Ancients did he attempt to kill her not of his own will. But, after two failures, Sephiroth finally did the deed himself. He probably figured he had full control of Cloud, so as long as he kept making himself useful, there was no need to kill them. But, in the end, he had in fact kept Cloud alive too long and couldn't stand up to him face to face.
These are my opinions placed with facts from the game.
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:18 pm
all i can say is................. interesting theaory
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:56 am
Quote: City of the Ancients; Crystal Projector: Cloud and the party learn what Aeris was doing in the city and why Sephiroth killed her. She knew when coming to the city that she was going to die. As a matter of fact, that was her final objective. When a Cetra prays using the Holy Materia, they must "take the prayer to the LifeStream". There was only one way she could have done that, and that was to lose her life. This isn't attacking the argument or anything, But I find it Ironic that soon after this, Mideel is Almost Directly Submerged in the LifeStream XD. Also, Both The North Crater, and the Late-Mideel are Semi or Wholly Direct Ports to the LifeStream, So isn't there a Possibility that there may have been others? But that was just Irony, I'll begin my Inquisition now XD Quote: On the walls in the corridor leading to the Temply Puzzle, it is written that Jenova had fallen from the sky 2000 years prior to the current date. When she fell, she created the Northern Crater, along with Gaea Cliffs. The Cetra found out she was a threat and summoned Holy once before, sacrificing nearly the entire race in order to save the planet from suffering the same fate. Here's an Odd thing. Nearly an Entire Race needs to Die to summon Holy, and Fast Forward 2000 years, and the Requirement is suddenly lowered to one girl? Just seems a bit Sketchy. It probably has something to do with the Strength of Holy or something (IE Sephiroth Holding it Back), but then it still seems iffy that it kind of Changed like that. Quote: Twice, once in the Temple of the Ancients ruins and once on the alter in the City of the Ancients did he attempt to kill her not of his own will. But, after two failures, Sephiroth finally did the deed himself. And this Kind Of Contradicts that above one, indirectly though. Sephiroth knew a Good Bit about the Cetra, JENOVA, Meteor and Holy; He also spent a good time at the temple of the Ancients, along with Aeris and the Party. So, Barring the "He Just Didn't Know" argument, which is Plausible, but because Sephiroth was supposed to be planning and Reading and God Knows what for so long, It kind of seems weird that he would not know; Sephiroth would have actually Helped Aeris Summon Holy, Complimenting Galdon's Argument, and done so knowingly. Quote: as for not recognising cloud, that might have just been to get cloud upset, whatsoever worse than the guy you've sworn to kill not knowing who you are? I suppose, But Sephiroth, and My Memory is fuzzy, forgive me, Did act kind of Strange on the Ship. Like he knew Cloud, but didn't really know him. If it was a Sarcastic Front to Bait Cloud, I wouldn't think it would be so off the wall as Sephiroth's Action and Speech showed. Quote: aerith was praying for it, but they (and we'd) didnt find out what she was doing till long after her death. so its plausible she knew she was going to die Plausible, I'll accept that, at least until all that other stuff is Cleared up.
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:03 am
"sephiroth holding back". This is possible, we may have seen a fraction of his power, just with the things we saw him do, i could make a long creative list of things he could have done, just chose not to. Meteor is a fun way of killing off a lot of people, but he could have done it in other ways.
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:16 pm
Quote: This isn't attacking the argument or anything, But I find it Ironic that soon after this, Mideel is Almost Directly Submerged in the LifeStream XD. Also, Both The North Crater, and the Late-Mideel are Semi or Wholly Direct Ports to the LifeStream, So isn't there a Possibility that there may have been others? True, but there are two things that take effect. 1. The alter on which Aeris prayed was made to summon Holy. Lets say that all she had to do was pray, then jump into a mako pool nearby. She didn't have time to move from the alter before she was killed. 2. My memory is also a little fuzzy because I haven't played the game in forever, but I might be mistaken on the LifeStream part. It could have said "take the prayer to the planet", or something to that effect. But, lets say it is the Lifestream. They probably had a certain method of taking the prayer to the Lifestream. After all, how climactic would it be to pray, then jump in a pool in order to summon Holy? Quote: Here's an Odd thing. Nearly an Entire Race needs to Die to summon Holy, and Fast Forward 2000 years, and the Requirement is suddenly lowered to one girl? Just seems a bit Sketchy. It probably has something to do with the Strength of Holy or something (IE Sephiroth Holding it Back), but then it still seems iffy that it kind of Changed like that. I think that it had to do with the threat Jenova caused them. After all, the Meteor was a threat, but it wasn't on the planet as Jenova was. When she landed, she spread her influence everywhere, causing the people of the planet to fall ill and die. It might have taken a lot more people for the sacrifice in order to summon Holy for all of that. After all, Jenova was a very power influence. Quote: And this Kind Of Contradicts that above one, indirectly though. Sephiroth knew a Good Bit about the Cetra, JENOVA, Meteor and Holy; He also spent a good time at the temple of the Ancients, along with Aeris and the Party. So, Barring the "He Just Didn't Know" argument, which is Plausible, but because Sephiroth was supposed to be planning and Reading and God Knows what for so long, It kind of seems weird that he would not know; Sephiroth would have actually Helped Aeris Summon Holy, Complimenting Galdon's Argument, and done so knowingly. Yes, he did know a lot about them. But he apparently didn't know too much about them because he claimed that both he and his mother (Jenova) were of the Cetra race. If, in fact he had read about the "Calamity from the Sky", then he would have know of the sacrifice needed, and that Jenova was not a true Cetra and only disguised herself as one. This leads me to believe that he didn't know as much as he let on.
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:58 pm
Quote: True, but there are two things that take effect. 1. The alter on which Aeris prayed was made to summon Holy. Lets say that all she had to do was pray, then jump into a mako pool nearby. She didn't have time to move from the alter before she was killed. 2. My memory is also a little fuzzy because I haven't played the game in forever, but I might be mistaken on the LifeStream part. It could have said "take the prayer to the planet", or something to that effect. But, lets say it is the Lifestream. They probably had a certain method of taking the prayer to the Lifestream. After all, how climactic would it be to pray, then jump in a pool in order to summon Holy? Yeah, I get the Whole Anti-Climactic thing, and the Time Window; I was arguing that Aeris May have not necessarily needed to die to Summon Holy, although it did happen, that it still might not have been required =P Quote: I think that it had to do with the threat Jenova caused them. After all, the Meteor was a threat, but it wasn't on the planet as Jenova was. When she landed, she spread her influence everywhere, causing the people of the planet to fall ill and die. It might have taken a lot more people for the sacrifice in order to summon Holy for all of that. After all, Jenova was a very power influence. Alright, yeah, I'll take that; JENOVA was also on the Planet when Meteor Appeared though, and even took the Final(?) form of "SYNTHESIS" during the Raid on the North Crater. Also, a Point in your favor, regrettably, would be that a good number of those people died of Illness, and not from Summoning Holy. Quote: Yes, he did know a lot about them. But he apparently didn't know too much about them because he claimed that both he and his mother (Jenova) were of the Cetra race. If, in fact he had read about the "Calamity from the Sky", then he would have know of the sacrifice needed, and that Jenova was not a true Cetra and only disguised herself as one. This leads me to believe that he didn't know as much as he let on. Yeah, But He also Resended that Argument, And, As I recall, Noted that JENOVA was not a Cetra, and Was not his mother, at some time in the game. I think this was Near the Time of Aeris' Death, though I may be wrong. If So, His Re-direction on the issue would mean that he did, in fact, know of JENOVA, the Cetra, and Holy. ----------- It really is an Interesting theory/discussion. XD
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Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:58 am
I'll think I'll add my two gil to this topic.
Sephiroth did want to fight Cloud, but the reall reason he didn't kill him was because Cloud was one of Hojo's failed Exparments and thus, because he carried the JENOVA Cell's, Sephiroth was able to control him with out his knowlage.
Sephiroth also enjoyed Cloud's suffering, (one of the reason's for him killing Aerith) and he enjoyed playing around with Cloud's head (giving him hints about who he really was, giving him destructive mateira and so on). This was also done to add to Cloud's suffering.
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Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:20 am
Quote: Sephiroth did want to fight Cloud, but the reall reason he didn't kill him was because Cloud was one of Hojo's failed Exparments and thus, because he carried the JENOVA Cell's, Sephiroth was able to control him with out his knowlage. Sephiroth also enjoyed Cloud's suffering, (one of the reason's for him killing Aerith) and he enjoyed playing around with Cloud's head (giving him hints about who he really was, giving him destructive mateira and so on). This was also done to add to Cloud's suffering. Most of that has already been mentioned, and Sephiroth wanting to Fight Cloud in Particular still has me questioning how Sephiroth even knew who Cloud was. For One, Cloud Stabbed Sephiroth with the mask on, and then Took it off for a short time, to throw him into the Mako. In None of this did Sephiroth Learn Cloud's Name, and he had less time to memorize Cloud's Face from 5 years prior to the events of FFVII; This is furthered by Sephiroth's Puzzled Reactions to Cloud Claiming to Know him. Sephiroth Also Couldn't have just enjoyed Cloud's Suffering in Particular, or he wouldn't have been trying to Destroy the Planet. As far as I see it, Cloud was a Tool to Sephiroth, not some Revenant Nemesis, or anything worth Baiting through the entire game. Sephiroth had his own, albeit inane and maniacal, agenda, and that was all that really mattered to him.
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Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:06 pm
Silhouette Jw Quote: Sephiroth did want to fight Cloud, but the reall reason he didn't kill him was because Cloud was one of Hojo's failed Exparments and thus, because he carried the JENOVA Cell's, Sephiroth was able to control him with out his knowlage. Sephiroth also enjoyed Cloud's suffering, (one of the reason's for him killing Aerith) and he enjoyed playing around with Cloud's head (giving him hints about who he really was, giving him destructive mateira and so on). This was also done to add to Cloud's suffering. Most of that has already been mentioned, and Sephiroth wanting to Fight Cloud in Particular still has me questioning how Sephiroth even knew who Cloud was. For One, Cloud Stabbed Sephiroth with the mask on, and then Took it off for a short time, to throw him into the Mako. In None of this did Sephiroth Learn Cloud's Name, and he had less time to memorize Cloud's Face from 5 years prior to the events of FFVII; This is furthered by Sephiroth's Puzzled Reactions to Cloud Claiming to Know him. Sephiroth Also Couldn't have just enjoyed Cloud's Suffering in Particular, or he wouldn't have been trying to Destroy the Planet. As far as I see it, Cloud was a Tool to Sephiroth, not some Revenant Nemesis, or anything worth Baiting through the entire game. Sephiroth had his own, albeit inane and maniacal, agenda, and that was all that really mattered to him. True, but he also new that he could use Cloud in order to further is evil plans.
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