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Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:40 am
I was a little confused about the tagging thing, so I hope what I did was okay. sweatdrop
Anyways...
Is there a uniform means of judging whether or not someone/something deserves legal rights? On what basis should a person (or anything) be granted or denied various legal rights?
I'll state my thoughts on the matter later.
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Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:55 pm
People talk about religious morals or whatnot being the basis of laws, but I heartily disagree.
Social Conscience.
Humans are, by nature and result of evolution, pack animals. We don't generally do well in isolation and crave others. Therefore, actions that disrupt the pack are seen as bad, mostly because of "natural" traits.
Take theft as an example. By taking something that isn't yours, you cause disruption, it belonged to someone else, and since there are other means for you to acquire it, the action is seen as wrong.
Obviously, differences between packs can be resolved in different ways, certainly fighting for territory can be observed in the animal kingdom, though not to the degree we humans do.
War, of course, is a uniquely human trait.
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Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:06 am
Juding rights is a matter of convinience and practicality moreso than social conscience. A society cannot exist in any stable sense without some governing morality, be it written in law or in the form of what Charon calls an inner 'social conscience.' Congregation in groups is a serious plus for survival and so retention of groups is also a serious plus for survival presuming that the group is not compromising individual's survivorship (and if that happens, you usually get rebellions of some sort).
It is also a matter of convinience in addition to practicality in the sense that throughout history, there have been established heirarchies of rights. If it isn't convinient (and often practicality is tied with this) to give a given group established rights, they aren't given. This is seen time and again particuarly with nonhuman species. Since it isn't 'convinient' to trial every person who slaughters a creature for purposes other than survival, we don't do it. There are cultures that do have this sort of justice in a sense but we certainly lack that kind of moral strength in the United States.
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Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:18 am
chikushou I was a little confused about the tagging thing, so I hope what I did was okay. sweatdrop Anyways... Is there a uniform means of judging whether or not someone/something deserves legal rights? On what basis should a person (or anything) be granted or denied various legal rights? I'll state my thoughts on the matter later. I'd say there is a very simple one: In the humans vs everything else category: Sentience. Anything even minimally sentient is deserving of legal rights. In the inter-human category, I'd say there is no clear cut distinction as to when full legal rights ought to be granted (perhaps some form of 'maturity test' as opposed to arbitrary ages??) , but that those rights should be a universal type o' thing.
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Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:30 am
Jaaten Syric I'd say there is a very simple one: In the humans vs everything else category: Sentience. (shakes head) Sentience is a very poor criteria. It is vaguely defined at best and also generally nonfalsifiable.
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Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:14 am
Starlock Jaaten Syric I'd say there is a very simple one: In the humans vs everything else category: Sentience. (shakes head) Sentience is a very poor criteria. It is vaguely defined at best and also generally nonfalsifiable. Indeed. You got to it before I did. Here's how I define it. In order for something to be eligable for legal rights, it must also be practical to apply legal limits to the said being. For instance, if we grant legal rights to a tree, we must also take away its right to, say, fall and kill someone/damage property in a storm. However, in many cases, this is impractical, or even contrary to the nature of the said being. No legal predicament will prevent that tree from falling over during the storm, just as no legal predicament will prevent the wolf from killing the deer, or the deer from killing the grass as it eats it, etc. With this being said, we have the right to deny such legal rights to any being on whom it would be illogical to enforce the same limit. In other words, if it is illogical to say that by legally forbidding the deer to kill the grass by eating it, the deer maintains the legal right not to be killed by the wolf, then it is illogical to grant the deer the right to life in the first place. I am, however, dissatisfied with my definition, as it holds several, major, unaswered questions. For instance, if I use the wolf-deer-grass set-up to justify my killing the wolf, deer, or grass, how do I know I have the right to do this or if, by killing something, I merely add myself to that list of things which are not deserving of the said legal right and may be killed? In other words, my thoughts are incomplete.
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Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:27 am
Jaaten Syric chikushou I was a little confused about the tagging thing, so I hope what I did was okay. sweatdrop Anyways... Is there a uniform means of judging whether or not someone/something deserves legal rights? On what basis should a person (or anything) be granted or denied various legal rights? I'll state my thoughts on the matter later. I'd say there is a very simple one: In the humans vs everything else category: Sentience. Anything even minimally sentient is deserving of legal rights. What is sentience? Can you prove that I am sentient, and thus deserving of legal rights? If not, we can't use it as a legal basis. Quote: In the inter-human category, I'd say there is no clear cut distinction as to when full legal rights ought to be granted (perhaps some form of 'maturity test' as opposed to arbitrary ages??) , but that those rights should be a universal type o' thing. And what sorts of rights should we deny those who are "imature" by said test? Should those exersising stewardship on these "pre-people" act in a percieved "best interest" deffering to their opinion of what the not yet existent person "would have wanted"? How far does this extend? Viability of the fetus? Likely survival to adulthood under reasonable medical conditions? Should those who are unlikely to ever "grow up" due to brain damage or terminal illnesses likely to end their lives before reaching that point be granted their full legal rights sooner or never? Are there any rights that a person who had not yet passed this test would posess at all? Any rights one would lose by passing this test? While I agree with you that applying a test of knowledge, mental compotence, and whatnot would be far superior to the current standard of arbitrary age lines, there is still the age old question of the legal status of those nonadults who are routinely denied basic personal liberty as a matter of course in basicly every human society throughout history.
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Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:43 am
chikushou For instance, if I use the wolf-deer-grass set-up to justify my killing the wolf, deer, or grass, how do I know I have the right to do this or if, by killing something, I merely add myself to that list of things which are not deserving of the said legal right and may be killed? Where I personally would make the distinction is based on purposiveness. Purposiveness and intent, though, are difficult to field in a court of law. Death, simply, is the way of life. We all kill to live and sustain our own existence. The basic rule of thumb is that if you eat what you're killing or use it for some sort of utilitarian purpose, that's fine. If you're killing for the sake of killing... that is morally abominable be the creature human or nonhuman. What precisely "utlitarian purpose" means would have to be more precisely defined.
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Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:17 am
Starlock chikushou For instance, if I use the wolf-deer-grass set-up to justify my killing the wolf, deer, or grass, how do I know I have the right to do this or if, by killing something, I merely add myself to that list of things which are not deserving of the said legal right and may be killed? Where I personally would make the distinction is based on purposiveness. Purposiveness and intent, though, are difficult to field in a court of law. Death, simply, is the way of life. We all kill to live and sustain our own existence. The basic rule of thumb is that if you eat what you're killing or use it for some sort of utilitarian purpose, that's fine. If you're killing for the sake of killing... that is morally abominable be the creature human or nonhuman. What precisely "utlitarian purpose" means would have to be more precisely defined. Indeed. Because killing is necessary for survival, we cannot necessarily use that to judge worthiness of rights. However, if allowing the killing of things for self-sustaining is also questionable. Is it okay for me to kill a human if I eat it? Or, how about my neighbor's dog, to eat? The squirrel chewing holes in my roof? The homeless kid? Is there a way to justify limiting who can be killed for the sake of sustaining myself?
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Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:48 pm
I think here maybe we can throw in the concept of "ownership." Humanity believes that it can "own" things and things which are owned are not to be violated by any phenomena, be it a human hand or a tornado. So since you "own" your house, the squirrel chewing holes in your roof is seen as an infringement upon your territory. You have, then, the right to remove it based on concepts of ownership and territories. Likewise in many states I hear you have the right to shoot any person who tresspasses on your property.
I understand the practicality of such measures. Things "owned" and territories claimed are survival tools and investments. To take them away is to in some way jepordize your own survival. If your house is burnt down, that's not good for your survival and well-being.
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Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:41 pm
Ah. So, then, even if I couldn't eat my neighbor's dog or my neighbor's kid, I could eat my dog, or my kid?
To be more straightforward: how can we define what can or cannot be owned without introducing slavery?
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:16 pm
chikushou Ah. So, then, even if I couldn't eat my neighbor's dog or my neighbor's kid, I could eat my dog, or my kid? To be more straightforward: how can we define what can or cannot be owned without introducing slavery? Well, if you couldn't tell from my tone (and my sig) I have some questions with the whole concept of "owning" in general... (chuckles) there's so many double standards it's... yeah. If you want to get very technical, we don't have ownership over anything whatsoever. Everything we "own" is obtained from something else. We don't even own our own bodies... the atoms that make it up originally came from whatever you just had for dinner. But... I'll stop myself from going on that tangent. In human societies, usually if you baught it, created it, or cultivated it, you own it. That technically in some ways endorses slavery, but I think the difference is that most exchanges are not made with this intent. You may "own" something, but because abuse or maltreatment is considered punishable by law. Tricky part is what exactly qualifies as abusive treatment and what owned objects "deserve" protection from abuse. The narrowness of what the human species generally consideres "deserving" protection from abuse is part of the reason why we're destabalizing the world's climate and biosphere. xd
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