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Koiyuki
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:19 pm


Thousands March in L.A. Over Immigration

To sum it up, business owners see it as keeping out criminals, and others see it as blocking out people who want a better life, and they ain't too happy about it.

Where do ya'll stand on this?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:17 am


The same happened in the 1600's when the colonists of the time tried to keep the uncivilised "Hottentot" scum out of their colony by building a hedge around the Cape Colony in South Africa.

I think it won't last very long, but it'll turn out rather ugly.

madamfluff


Lord Vyce
Captain

PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:45 am


In the words of Carlos Mencia, "Who will build it? If you kick out all the wetbacks, who'll build the wall? I mean, there goes the work force." All that has to be done is to make it easier and less costly for immigrants to enter legally. That would greatly lower the amount of illegal immigrants. And if they don't want immigrants, legal or otherwise, then they can just sit on a tack and spin around on it for a few days.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:46 am


I'm Mexican myself, and it pisses me off that these people think they can run in here, live illegally, not pay taxes, and expect us to be happy about it. It sickens me to think that the Mexican government acctually printed out MAPS to give to illegal immigrants, so they know exactly where to go and how long it will take them, and what to birng and how much.

Epitomy of Atrophy


NekoIncChan

PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:23 pm


Epitomy: Can you truly blame them for wishing to improve their individual lots? And can you blame the companies for wanting to take advantage of the cheaper labor? This is the sad fact of the situation, honestly.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:55 am


NekoIncChan
Epitomy: Can you truly blame them for wishing to improve their individual lots? And can you blame the companies for wanting to take advantage of the cheaper labor? This is the sad fact of the situation, honestly.

But in reality, illegal immigrants and immigrants in general would be the best cheap labour supply here ever is.

madamfluff


Lord Vyce
Captain

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:12 am


madamfluff
NekoIncChan
Epitomy: Can you truly blame them for wishing to improve their individual lots? And can you blame the companies for wanting to take advantage of the cheaper labor? This is the sad fact of the situation, honestly.

But in reality, illegal immigrants and immigrants in general would be the best cheap labour supply here ever is.


Not immigrants in general, only illegal immigrants. Legal ones can file discrimination complaints if their pay is below what the job is "worth", or if they get a wage lower than the minimum or another employee's. Illegal immigrants can't because the priority would be the location of their immigration papers, rather than the pay they're recieving.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:42 pm


Lord Vyce
madamfluff
NekoIncChan
Epitomy: Can you truly blame them for wishing to improve their individual lots? And can you blame the companies for wanting to take advantage of the cheaper labor? This is the sad fact of the situation, honestly.

But in reality, illegal immigrants and immigrants in general would be the best cheap labour supply here ever is.


Not immigrants in general, only illegal immigrants. Legal ones can file discrimination complaints if their pay is below what the job is "worth", or if they get a wage lower than the minimum or another employee's. Illegal immigrants can't because the priority would be the location of their immigration papers, rather than the pay they're recieving.

Some legal immigrants here get paid real badly sweatdrop Forgot to account for the educated

madamfluff


Sethimothy

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:39 pm


Feh. People b***h about how difficult the process to become an American is. However, to my knowledge, it is amonst the easiest of any 1st world country out there, and is significantly easier to gain citizenship than Canada or the UK.

At the end of the day, there's millions of individuals in this country illegally. Sure, they may be human - but then again, so are rapists and thieves, and I doubt we'd hesitate to punish them.

I truly feel we should approuch this the same way we'd approuch trying to stop rape. We sure as hell wouldn't reward rapists, nor would we put laws into place making it easier for rapists to get legitimate women - we'd punish them and put up a system making it more difficult for them to reoffend.

There are worse evils to deal with, but that does not mean this issue is moot and should be avoided.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:30 pm


NekoIncChan
Epitomy: Can you truly blame them for wishing to improve their individual lots? And can you blame the companies for wanting to take advantage of the cheaper labor? This is the sad fact of the situation, honestly.

Yes I can,
because they're being entirely selfish in makeing their lives better,
but ours harder.
If there wasn't the over 11 million illegal immigrants in the US,
don't you think our taxes might be a bit less costly?
Not to complain,
but I hear my parents say they can hardly pay for this stuff.
Again, illegal immigrants only make our lives harder.

Epitomy of Atrophy


Skire

PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:37 am


If I'd be an immigrant...I'd move to Canada. Immigrants are treated better than the citizens themselves! They get a pension rigth off the start (one that is, infact better than the maximum pension alotted to true born citizens after they reach 65 years old and worked all their lives), they get a job, a house (shelter), they get a bunch of help funds, commitees that decide the best course of action they can take to achieve whatever they want...

Hell, the way I see it, immigrants are freakin' smart!

2 options.

Stay in bumfugh 3rd world sh*thole.
-or-
Go to a country with everything hand delivered to you...and keep your traditions and live the life you never would have back in your home country.

I pick the second.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:25 pm


I say make them all citizens. That way they get minimum wage at least, so the labor will cost as much as every other company, so companies will stop going under, and everything goes back to normal.

Of course there is the taxes issue, but I am a Libertarian, so that explains my view of that wink (those not familiar with the libertarian view of taxes, it is that they should be abolished, or DRASTICLY lowered)

PhantomPhoenix0


Lord Vyce
Captain

PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:17 pm


Epitomy of Atrophy
NekoIncChan
Epitomy: Can you truly blame them for wishing to improve their individual lots? And can you blame the companies for wanting to take advantage of the cheaper labor? This is the sad fact of the situation, honestly.

Yes I can,
because they're being entirely selfish in makeing their lives better,
but ours harder.
If there wasn't the over 11 million illegal immigrants in the US,
don't you think our taxes might be a bit less costly?
Not to complain,
but I hear my parents say they can hardly pay for this stuff.
Again, illegal immigrants only make our lives harder.


Actually, no. Taxes aren't influenced by illegal immigrants unless you're one of the bigger corporations, in which case, Illegals are a Godsend. Immigrants lower the costs of construction and others things in which they're involved, making corporations more willing spend in reconstruction and remodeling operations, and, by giving them money, they make immigrants participate in the circulation of economy.

Illegal Immigrants don't make your life harder, at least not directly, and saying so is only proof of ignorance. How many jobs taken by Illegal immigrants would be left vacant otherwise? It's not like there's great demand (or even decent, actually) for jobs like those of people who cleans sewers, sludge pits and other disgusting places, not to mention fast food joints where there wouldn't be many employess otherwise. They fill up jobs nobody else wants, jobs that keep the cities and countries running smoothly, though in less known ways. Let's be honest, have you met a kid that's ever said: "I wanna be the manager of a dump when I grow up"

The US was built on the premise of working immigrants, and until its Immigrant policy changes, this will continue. You can't blame them, because they're not being selfish. It's easy to get US citizenship, unless you live like many of these people do: In poverty and discomfort. Many of these people start from scratch, with nothing but, literally, the clothes on their backs. Tell an Immigrant who job hunts in front of Home Depot that getting a citizenship is easy. Tell the hookers, the sewer cleaners, the hot dog vendors, the dishwashers and the bums.

Most Illegal Immigrants get their citizenships only decades after they come, because they finally have enough to start their lives as citizens. Many only get citizenships for their offspring, while many more never do. Only a few think "Ah, I don't want to pay taxes, let the tax payers take care of me", and the ones who do think that way often get deported. You make it seem like they stay Illegally because it's convenient.(sp?)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:52 am


Epitomy of Atrophy
NekoIncChan
Epitomy: Can you truly blame them for wishing to improve their individual lots? And can you blame the companies for wanting to take advantage of the cheaper labor? This is the sad fact of the situation, honestly.

Yes I can,
because they're being entirely selfish in makeing their lives better,
but ours harder.
If there wasn't the over 11 million illegal immigrants in the US,
don't you think our taxes might be a bit less costly?
Not to complain,
but I hear my parents say they can hardly pay for this stuff.
Again, illegal immigrants only make our lives harder.


Quote:
Actually, no. Taxes aren't influenced by illegal immigrants unless you're one of the bigger corporations, in which case, Illegals are a Godsend. Immigrants lower the costs of construction and others things in which they're involved, making corporations more willing spend in reconstruction and remodeling operations, and, by giving them money, they make immigrants participate in the circulation of economy.

In California, where there is a massive amount of non-tax-paying illegals, they get free health care and welfare and stuff. But that's not free for everyone else, namely tax payers. The legal citizens pay an extra $1200 a year to take care of illegals.

Quote:

Illegal Immigrants don't make your life harder, at least not directly, and saying so is only proof of ignorance. How many jobs taken by Illegal immigrants would be left vacant otherwise?

Oh, I agree, we need the illegals to pick our oranges and such,
but they don't pay taxes to support their own welfare,
and so it gets dumped on us.
No, I wouldn't be so smart if I were to call you ignorant, and so I wont. TTwTT

Quote:

The US was built on the premise of working immigrants, and until its Immigrant policy changes, this will continue. You can't blame them, because they're not being selfish. It's easy to get US citizenship, unless you live like many of these people do: In poverty and discomfort. Many of these people start from scratch, with nothing but, literally, the clothes on their backs. Tell an Immigrant who job hunts in front of Home Depot that getting a citizenship is easy. Tell the hookers, the sewer cleaners, the hot dog vendors, the dishwashers and the bums.

No, citizenship, I know, is a hard grab.
So stay in Mexico, and don't make us pay more taxes.
Some people need that money to send certain kids to school,
where as illegals get to go for free.
See? Greedy.
They make is so that there are more taxes,
and my parents can hardly pay
to send I and my sister their children to school.

Quote:
You make it seem like they stay Illegally because it's convenient.

And you make it sound like they don't.
Think,
do you acctually beleive they would want to pay out the a** for taxes,
when they can just dodge them like they had been for the last decade they were in the U S of A? No. Why would they make things harder for themselves when they can just live off of tax payers?

Epitomy of Atrophy


PhantomPhoenix0

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:18 pm


Just thought I'd throw in some more ideas for you to consider

Micheal Tanner
The benefits of open immigration

America has always been a nation of immigrants. Thomas Jefferson emphasized this basic part of the American heritage, taking note of "the natural right which all men have of relinquishing the country in which birth or other accident may have thrown them, and seeking subsistence and happiness wheresoever they may be able, and hope to find them."

The Libertarian Party has long recognized the importance of allowing free and open immigration, understanding that this leads to a growing and more prosperous America. We condemn the xenophobic immigrant bashing that would build a wall around the United States. At the same time, we recognize that the right to enter the United States does not include the right to economic entitlements such as welfare. The freedom to immigrate is a freedom of opportunity, not a guarantee of a handout.

A policy of open immigration will advance the economic well-being of all Americans. All major recent studies of immigrants indicate that they have a high labor force participation, are entrepreneurial, and tend to have specialized skills that allow them to enter under-served markets. Although it is a common misconception that immigrants "take jobs away from native-born Americans," this does not appear to be true. In 1989, the U.S. Department of Labor reviewed nearly 100 studies on the relationship between immigration and unemployment and concluded that "neither U.S. workers nor most minority workers appear adversely affected by immigration."

Indeed, most studies show that immigrants actually lead to an increase in the number of jobs available. Immigrants produce jobs in several ways: 1) They expand the demand for goods and services through their own consumption; 2) They bring savings with them that contribute to overall investment and productivity; 3) They are more highly entrepreneurial than native-born Americans and create jobs through the businesses they start; 4) They fill gaps in the low and high ends of the labor markets, producing subsidiary jobs for American workers; 5) Low-wage immigrants may enable threatened American businesses to survive competition from low-wage businesses abroad; and 6) They contribute to increased economic efficiencies through economies of scale.

Confirmation can be seen in a study by economists Richard Vedder and Lowell Galloway of Ohio University and Stephen Moore of the Cato Institute. They found that states with the highest rates of immigration during the 1980s also had the highest rates of economic growth and lowest rates of unemployment.

Studies also show that not only do immigrants not take jobs away from American workers, they also do not drive down wages. Numerous studies have demonstrated that increased immigration has little or no effect on the wages of most American workers, and may even increase wages at upper income levels.

Contrary to stereotypes, there is no evidence that immigrants come to this country to receive welfare. Indeed, most studies show that immigrants actually use welfare at lower rates than do native-born Americans. For example, a study of welfare recipients in New York City found that only 7.7% of immigrants were receiving welfare compared to 13.3% for the population as a whole. Likewise, a nationwide study by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics found that 12.8% of immigrants were receiving welfare benefits, compared to 13.9% of the general population. Some recent studies indicate that the rate of welfare usage may now be equalizing between immigrants and native-born Americans, but, clearly, most immigrants are not on welfare.

The impact of immigrants on taxes is more equivocal. Most immigrants pay more in taxes than they receive in government benefits. However, the majority of immigrant taxes are paid to the federal government, while immigrants tend to use mostly state and local services. This can place a burden on states and localities in high immigration areas.

However, the answer to this problem lies not in cutting off immigration, but in cutting the services that immigrants consume. The right to immigrate does not imply a right to welfare -- or any other government service. Moreover, this is not simply a matter of saving tax money. The Libertarian Party believes that most government welfare programs are destructive to the recipients themselves. Thus, immigrants would actually be better off without access to these programs. As Edward Crane, President of the Cato Institute, has put it:

"Suppose we increased the level of immigration, but the rule would be that immigrants and their descendants would have no access to government social services, including welfare, Social Security, health care, business subsidies, and the public schools. I would argue, first, that there would be no lack of takers for that proposition. Second, within a generation, we would see those immigrants' children going to better and cheaper schools than the average citizen; there would be less poverty, a better work ethic, and proportionately more entrepreneurs than in the rest of U.S. society; and virtually everyone in that group would have inexpensive high-deductible catastrophic health insurance, while the 'truly needy' would be cared for by an immigrant culture that gave proportionately more to charity."

Finally, any discussion of immigration must include a warning about the threat to civil liberties posed by many of the proposals to limit immigration. Recent legislation to restrict immigration has included calls for a national identity card for all Americans. Senator Diane Feinstein (CA-D) has suggested that such an ID card should contain an individual's photograph, fingerprints, and even retina scans. Representative Lamar Smith (R-TX) has proposed legislation that would require employers to consult a national registry of workers before hiring anyone, effectively giving the U.S. government control over every hiring decision by every business in America.

Other legislation has contained provisions penalizing people who fail to "inform" on people they "suspect" might be illegal immigrants. Such Orwellian nightmares have no place in a free society, but are the natural outgrowth of an obsession with restricting immigration.


Taken from the Libertarian Party website. (http://www.lp.org)
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