I am a gay christian. Until recently, I believed it is wrong for any gay person to act on their homosexuality. As I studied for myself, getting away from others and stopping my search from answers from other people to look into the Bible myself, I learned otherwise and I am happy together with my girlfriend of almost one year. I would love to share what I have found and read what you have in Biblical answers for or against homosexuality. I am still open to hearing both sides now and willing to accept the fact that one day I may stand corrected. Who would want to live a life against the will of God? What are your beliefs on God, the Bible and Homosexuality?
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:08 pm
I'm going to speak against homosexuals, anti-homosexuals, and myself, all at once. Play close attention, lest ye be confused (a common reaction to my writing xp ).
Okay, last time I checked my Bible, homosexuality was still a sin. It's always been a sin, and will always be a sin. God's opinion on the subject hasn't changed. I won't bother quoting chapters and verses here unless I'm specifically asked, only 'cause I figure most people already know all the relevant verses.
Yeah, I know, it's not popular, or trendy, or politically correct, to say such things. I don't care. I'm more interested in what God says than in what people want Him to say.
Having said that, though ... something I don't get, something I'll never get, is why non-homosexuals (most notably Christians) have always wanted to treat homosexuality as something special. Like, it's extra-heinous or something. It's not. It's no different. It's the same as normal adultery, or cheating, or disrespecting our parents, or telling white lies, or whatever. Homosexuals have been persecuted over the years, but why haven't some other classes of sinner? (Perfect example: you said yourself you'd been kicked out of one church for being gay, but why aren't thieves banned from the same church? Even laying that aside, they shouldn't have banned you in the first place, but ... )
God has His law. And the Bible states quite simply that if we break any one part of the Law, it's the same as breaking the whole thing. Homosexuality is not any different from any other possible sin. And I grow sick of people (on both sides of the equation) who try to pretend that it is.
Now ... let me pick on another sin, and another person: myself. I am angry. No, I mean my mood varies between "I'm not in the mood to hurt anyone yet" to "I know six ways to cripple you permanently" most of the time, with only the occasional foray into niceness. I have a phenomenally low opinion of the human race, and wouldn't weep much if half of us were wiped out in a nuclear explosion.
And ... that's wrong of me. That's sinful, right there. That is 'Bait being sinful, being angry without cause. Shame on me.
And I mean that "shame on me" part. Because I recognize my sin, and I struggle constantly to overcome it. I fail sometimes, and that pains me -- a lot, more than I can possibly ever describe -- but I keep trying, and with God's help, there are many times when I succeed.
Some people talk of being "born gay". I was "born pissed". Both are wrong. Both are better expressed as "born sinful", which pretty much describes the entire human race.
Y'know what the difference is, then, 'twixt thee and me?
It's this: You've got people telling you "it's okay", and you want to believe them. I've got God telling me "'Bait, calm down" ... and I'm trying to obey Him. That is the only difference. Otherwise, we're the same, you and I: we're both sinners, just like the rest of humanity. To your credit, though, I'll certainly acknowledge that you said you're "open to hearing both sides now and willing to accept the fact that one day" you "may stand corrected". That's big of you, and good of you; better than most people I've encountered.
"Who would want to live a life against the will of God?" Is that a trick question? *Glances around.* Do I really have to make a list of names for you? Let's face it; everybody tries a life against the will of God, at one point or another.
My stance is pretty much what Bait has already said, so I don't have much to add. Any of the transgressions punishable by death in the Old Testament I don't think all of a sudden became righteous today. Even though we withhold stoning in favor of getting said person to repent of their sins and reconcile with God/receive his forgiveness, I still view acting on homosexual lusts as a sin / transgression of the law.
Quote:
1 John 3:4 (NIV)
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.
Quote:
Romans 1:32 (NIV)
32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Aside from the bit about Moloch, I would say the majority of Leviticus 18 is about who you cannot have sex with. The Septuagint aka The Old Testament in Greek applies "arsenokoites" (or rather "arseno koiten") for "man laying with man" in Leviticus 18 as well (Lv18:22 καὶ μετὰ ἄρσενος οὐ κοιμηθήσῃ κοίτην γυναικός· βδέλυγμα γάρ ἐστιν). So when it appears again in the Greek of the New Testament, it carries the same meaning. Males shouldn't have sex with males. And Paul, again I'll refer to Romans 1, calls same sex lusts "shameful" for both women going after women, and men on men (v. 26-27).
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
I don't see anything in scripture that approves of indulging in same sex lusts as a godly expression of lust/marriage/relationship. I see it as something the pagans did, not anything native-born Israelites and the foreigners who joined them would've done in obedience to YHWH/Jesus as their God.
edit: The verse from Leviticus as it appears in the Septuagint (you'll have to scroll down to Chapter 18, verse 22) I got from this website: http://www.hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/graeca/Chronologia/S_ante03/VT/vte_pd03.html
You can even put it in Google Translate, not so much for the translation, but to see the phonetic spelling that shows up at the bottom in gray (thus verifying that arseno koiten shows up and that I'm not making it up; that's actually what the Old Testament in Greek says).
Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:32 am
Rereading one of my books last night (The Bible for Dummies, to be precise), I came across the first example of homosexuality in the Bible: Sodom. Recall that the angels came to visit Lot, the men of the town said "send those guys out here so we can 'know' them", and Lot said, "no, that's detestable! Here, take my daughters instead, at least they're the appropriate gender, but don't touch these men!" Even then, generations before God gave the Commandments to Moses, those who tried to follow God knew that homosexuality was wrong.
On the other hand, Real Eyes has mentioned what is probably the only verse that says that homosexuality is wrong for women as well. I don't know; there might be something along those lines in Leviticus, but I do believe that Paul's statement is the only one that expands homosexuality to include female couplings.
And ... the first time I glanced at that post, I thought it said "Arsenio". I thought, "what, is he gay, too?"
I think it's wonderful that you can say that you are a gay christian. Many people have this deep seeded though that if they are Christian, they cannot be gay because it is a sin. I believe that God loves all his children and if he didn't you wouldn't be made the way you are. There are many questionable bible verses out there, but I am proud of you for self admittance and you are a beautiful person for that!
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 7:32 pm
Hm, let's look into scripture and actually verify what you say is True. Because I see a blurry reading of scripture. I don't want to come off rude or condescending but didn't scripture say, 1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Why blur the lines on this particular sin? Would it be right to say to a brother or a sister, "It is wonderful you continue murdering/stealing/adulterating/lying/fornicating I'm glad you went back into your past that the Lord died to dig you out of?"
I understand sanctification of a Christian takes time to dissolve the desires of the flesh in the past, but God has made a new creature out of us.
We tend to categorize homosexuality as a sin above other sin. In actuality, it's all damning. Should we embrace it? By no means. Should we marry homosexuals in our churches? No. But should we put them out of our congregations? Keep them from meeting Jesus? Keep them from hearing the truth? Unequivocally, absolutely not.
I took over my youth group. From the time I started going until now, we had a guy about my age going who struggled with pornography and temptation and lust for other men. For a few months, he's been coming back to church, even if he has to come alone. This morning, I was on stage playing and singing How He Loves. We hit that bridge... "He loooves us, oh how He loves us~..." And he hits the altar, balling his eyes out. In the years I've been there I never knew, but he never actually gave his heart to Jesus. This morning I got to watch from the stage as he did that, my former youth pastor kneeling beside him on the altar and praying with him. It was beautiful. It's why I'm in the ministry.
If we handled the issue as some would suggest we do, then he would've been put out of the congregation as soon as he confessed to me and the former youth pastor in private that he dealt with this burden in his life. He probably would've spiraled out into the dark and he probably never would've surrendered to the Lord.
Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:15 am
Thank you all for your responses. I am finally back on Gaia after having to leave for a time to make it through these college courses. Today is the last day and my work is done.
It is interesting that you can bring up how sinful it is that I am gay and I act on it, but you cannot show me in the Bible how it is a sin. Often times Christians do not want to dig into the Bible or read in context.
There was no concept of homosexuality back then. When you look at the original Hebrew and Greek of which it was written in, you see the definition and what it meant at that time. It's referring to a**l sex, shrine prostitution, and pervertedness.
We do not see any stories of a real loving homosexual relationship being condemned in the Bible. In Sodom and Gomorrah we see gang rape. In Romans 1 we see idolitry at it's fullest. "Creating images that are man/animal like"?
In all of Jesus' sermons He covers sin and not one time does He speak on homosexuality. The Bible was otherwise interpretted by Christians like Paul on what they interpretted or believed (opinion). The whole topic is grey, not black and white. How can you say it's a sin when you don't know? Prove this.
When I read and study the Bible as a GAY-CHRISTIAN (yes, it goes together unless proven otherwise...I am living proof), I go in DEEP! I research and study history, I use books that aren't right or left wing, but mutual books (whatever you all them to study the Bible with) that Baptist, Pentacostals, Non-Denominational and Theologists who studied through to their PhD, poured into together and came to a mutual agreement based on what we know.
You don't even have to go as deep as I go, look at the surface for what it is. Gang rape? Shrine Prostitutino? Pervertedness? In the old testiment there is a listing of what relationships are sinful and shouldn't happen, and homosexuality isn't in it.
The Bible mentions man with man, but never woman with woman. Why? God isn't going to say women aren't the only ones who can't act on it...it's because it's referring to a**l sex. They believed men carry life and when are the incubators. For them to have a**l sex would kill that life and thus be murder.
If you look at all the verses in the Bible that mention Sodom and Gomorrah, you will find places and a people who were compared to Sodom and Gomorrah because of their sin and homosexuality wasn't mentioned at all.
Homosexuality is not in the Bible.
God didn't say in the beginning either that He was going to make a woman for him. He said, "I will make a partner suitable for you". A suitable partner for Him was a woman, but not everyones suitable partner is opposite sex.
I think it's wonderful that you can say that you are a gay christian. Many people have this deep seeded though that if they are Christian, they cannot be gay because it is a sin. I believe that God loves all his children and if he didn't you wouldn't be made the way you are. There are many questionable bible verses out there, but I am proud of you for self admittance and you are a beautiful person for that!
Thank you so much! smile
Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 4:27 pm
Masuyo-Rie-Takahashi
Thank you all for your responses. I am finally back on Gaia after having to leave for a time to make it through these college courses. Today is the last day and my work is done.
It is interesting that you can bring up how sinful it is that I am gay and I act on it, but you cannot show me in the Bible how it is a sin. Often times Christians do not want to dig into the Bible or read in context.
There was no concept of homosexuality back then. When you look at the original Hebrew and Greek of which it was written in, you see the definition and what it meant at that time. It's referring to a**l sex, shrine prostitution, and pervertedness.
We do not see any stories of a real loving homosexual relationship being condemned in the Bible. In Sodom and Gomorrah we see gang rape. In Romans 1 we see idolitry at it's fullest. "Creating images that are man/animal like"?
In all of Jesus' sermons He covers sin and not one time does He speak on homosexuality. The Bible was otherwise interpretted by Christians like Paul on what they interpretted or believed (opinion). The whole topic is grey, not black and white. How can you say it's a sin when you don't know? Prove this.
When I read and study the Bible as a GAY-CHRISTIAN (yes, it goes together unless proven otherwise...I am living proof), I go in DEEP! I research and study history, I use books that aren't right or left wing, but mutual books (whatever you all them to study the Bible with) that Baptist, Pentacostals, Non-Denominational and Theologists who studied through to their PhD, poured into together and came to a mutual agreement based on what we know.
You don't even have to go as deep as I go, look at the surface for what it is. Gang rape? Shrine Prostitutino? Pervertedness? In the old testiment there is a listing of what relationships are sinful and shouldn't happen, and homosexuality isn't in it.
The Bible mentions man with man, but never woman with woman. Why? God isn't going to say women aren't the only ones who can't act on it...it's because it's referring to a**l sex. They believed men carry life and when are the incubators. For them to have a**l sex would kill that life and thus be murder.
If you look at all the verses in the Bible that mention Sodom and Gomorrah, you will find places and a people who were compared to Sodom and Gomorrah because of their sin and homosexuality wasn't mentioned at all.
Homosexuality is not in the Bible.
God didn't say in the beginning either that He was going to make a woman for him. He said, "I will make a partner suitable for you". A suitable partner for Him was a woman, but not everyones suitable partner is opposite sex.
Prove me wrong.
---
Masuyo-Rie-Takahashi
It is interesting that you can bring up how sinful it is that I am gay and I act on it, but you cannot show me in the Bible how it is a sin. Often times Christians do not want to dig into the Bible or read in context.
Masuyo-Rie-Takahashi
When I read and study the Bible as a GAY-CHRISTIAN (yes, it goes together unless proven otherwise...I am living proof), I go in DEEP! I research and study history, I use books that aren't right or left wing, but mutual books (whatever you all them to study the Bible with) that Baptist, Pentacostals, Non-Denominational and Theologists who studied through to their PhD, poured into together and came to a mutual agreement based on what we know.
It doesn't sound like you're really "digging" into the bible (the Hebrew and Greek), as much as you're heaping up teachers to suit your passions.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 (ESV)
3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound[a] teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
Footnotes:
2 Timothy 4:3 Or healthy
And you asked what we genuinely thought of homosexuality. We're not singling you out for anything.
That said, as far as ignoring context goes:
Romans 1 doesn't speak of "idolatry" only (idolatry in the form you're thinking anyway).
Romans 1:29-32 (ESV)
29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
As you can see, there are multiple kinds of sins touched upon in Romans 1. It also gives a blanket statement for partaking in acts that merit death—and also, approving of those who practice these worthy-of-death acts (worthy-of-death according to YHWH's law). Not surprisingly, when people abandon YHWH and his instructions, they will fall into ALL those sins, regardless of the category, sexual or non-sexual sins, or whether or not he condemned it previously (by the letter) because the wicked people are "inventing ways to do evil".
That's the true spirit of idolatry (and this is what I mean by "not in the way you're thinking"): when YHWH's precepts are NOT heeded and/or abandoned: valuing someone or something else (their opinions, more than [or equal to]) YHWH, and allowing that to guide you—whether it's worldly philosophy or the desires of your own flesh. Worshiping your flesh, or the worldly mind of another, more than (or equal to) God is to worship creation too because we are created; we're holding in high esteem (adoring) mankind's fleshly ways, instead of God's way at that point.
You would have to rely on worldly wisdom to reject that "women exchanging natural relations" and "being consumed with passion for each other", quite plainly refers to, "women not having relations with men", and replacing men by going after sexual relations with women / each other / the same sex. How is "women rejecting sex with men" only condemning an act of prostitution in worship of another God/Goddess/Idol? Does a woman have to stop having sex with men altogether to go rendezvous with a female prostitute? No. So what does Paul mean when he says "they exchanged the natural relations"? replaced it with something else? thus rejecting the other? Romans 1:26-27 is including all the other cases which depart from lawful male-female sex. Both the physical act and the passion they have for the same sex individual are being condemned (it's called shameful lusts/dishonorable passions, depending on which version you read; this is Romans 1:26 which I quoted and the Greek conveys "passions of dishonor").
In Leviticus 18, the list of sex acts/partners YHWH views as an abomination (Leviticus 18:29; the Hebrew conveys "abomination"), question: is it dishonorable/an abomination to have sex with your dad only if he's a prostitute? only if you're having sex with your dad in worship of another god? otherwise, go ahead? Is it dishonorable to have sex with your daughter-in-law, only in the case that she's a cult prostitute and you're worshiping another god? otherwise, go ahead? Then how is it that, when it comes to man laying with man as he does with a woman, it is dishonorable ONLY IF that man is a prostitute and it was done in an act of worship towards another god?
...or that it's only condemning a**l sex between men? To interpret "man laying with man", as only a**l sex being condemned, should have you asking yourself, "then why is a woman mentioned in the verse at all?".
Leviticus 18:22 (ESV)
22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.
That a woman is brought up in this verse is to suggest: don't lie with a man for sexual purposes (because that's what a man lies with a woman for: sex). That's the whole point for mentioning "as with woman". He condemns two people of the same sex having sex. Spirit of the law would have this applied to women too. The reason why women aren't given an equivalent command over this is that a woman can't join to flesh the way a man can (regardless of whether he's penetrating an a**s or a v****a). And I don't mean to sound crass, but people had to invent "toys" for women to mimick how a man penetrates something.
People of the "same-sex" aren't meant to have sex nor have lustful passions towards each other. And taking it back to Romans 1, again, the very lust itself, and having sex with the same sex, is being called dishonorable. Not "only if" that same-sexed person is a prostitute. But with anyone of the same sex. There's no mention of prostitution here. The point is how these sexually active women are not having relations with men, at all, even though YHWH naturally designed the male sexual organ to be compatible with the female sexual organ.
I would agree everything spoken of in Romans 1 is idolatry, but not in the sense you're initially thinking: it's idolatry because they're not submitting to God's precepts; they worship creation and creation's opinions, not what the Creator said. They're allowing someone else (or themselves) to define righteousness and they're allowing the flesh to govern them instead of choosing God's righteousness.
When someone is driven by the passions of the flesh, guess what Paul had to say about that:
Romans 8:7-8 (ESV)
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Masuyo-Rie-Takahashi
There was no concept of homosexuality back then.
First of all, neither you nor I were there; so we're depending on something/someone to define that history. The bible doesn't agree with the notion that homosexuality didn't exist: having sexual relations with someone of the same sex was around back then / lusting after someone of the same sex was around back then (that is homosexuality, according to the bible, whether you want to define it that way or not). That you're trying to make classifications within homosexual acts is to ignore the spirit of the law: the "oneness" union in the flesh—beyond friendship—is not suppose to happen between same sex, but opposite sex.
Mark 10:5-8 (ESV)
5 And Jesus said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. 6 But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.’ 7 ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife,[a] 8 and the two shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two but one flesh.
Male and female becomes one flesh. Not male-male or female-female becoming one flesh.
And if it's simply "emotions" and not lust, then why is it escalating to something more than friendship or sisterly bond? If homosexuality is truly not about sex.
Masuyo-Rie-Takahashi
There was no concept of homosexuality back then. When you look at the original Hebrew and Greek of which it was written in, you see the definition and what it meant at that time. It's referring to a**l sex, shrine prostitution, and pervertedness.
Again, something/someone else, not the bible, is defining that for you (and defining it for you in contradiction to how the bible goes about defining it). Leviticus 18 does NOT talk about prostitutes. To find the commands against prostitutes you'll have to look into Leviticus 19 and Deuteronomy 23. When the bible wants to address prostitution it explicitly tells you "let's talk prostitution".
Leviticus 19:29 (ESV)
29 “Do not profane your daughter by making her a prostitute, lest the land fall into prostitution and the land become full of depravity.
Deuteronomy 23:17-18 (ESV)
17 “None of the daughters of Israel shall be a cult prostitute, and none of the sons of Israel shall be a cult prostitute. 18 You shall not bring the fee of a prostitute or the wages of a dog[a] into the house of the Lord your God in payment for any vow, for both of these are an abomination to the Lord your God.
Footnotes:
a. Deuteronomy 23:18 Or male prostitute
...there are your cult prostitutes who are worshiping idols.
When it wants to talk against homosexuality on the other hand, it talks sexual relations between man and man, woman with woman, so no one can distort what he's trying to say.
Masuyo-Rie-Takahashi
We do not see any stories of a real loving homosexual relationship being condemned in the Bible. In Sodom and Gomorrah we see gang rape. In Romans 1 we see idolitry at it's fullest. "Creating images that are man/animal like"?
"Same sex"-anything is not suppose to lead to having sex with each other nor having sexual lusts/passions for one another. Since when does "love" = "sex"/"lust"?
He expects us (born-again believers) to show love towards our enemies who hate us too. It's not a feeling/passion. It's an action, how you treat them. And, of course, we can experience "real love" with friends, family, fellow believers, too—same sex or not.
This is what "real loving" looks like:
- Loving someone so much that you'll die for them:
John 15:13(ESV)
13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
- Loving someone so much that you'll be patient with them, not irritable, speak truth to them, not be envious of the things they have, but instead you're happy for them, willing to forgive them / not hold grudges, etc...:
1 Corinthians 13:4-7(ESV)
4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;[a] 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 13:5 Greek irritable and does not count up wrongdoing
Romance, getting wooed, butterflies in your stomach, wanting to hear sexual things from them that make you blush (what the world defines as dating/having a relationship) is not it. That's not love. That's of the flesh.
Masuyo-Rie-Takahashi
You don't even have to go as deep as I go, look at the surface for what it is.
Honestly, you're not going "deep" into the bible at all; you're going deep into the world for your definitions of "love" and "homosexuality". You will not read the bible correctly, nor interpret it correctly, operating on different definitions.
Masuyo-Rie-Takahashi
Homosexuality is not in the Bible.
Because you define it differently than the bible does.
Stop letting the world and the sinful nature of the flesh, with its passions and lusts, deceive you and determine for you what you do with your body, and who you lust after (I'm not talking mere attraction, but who you allow yourself to be "a flaming furnace of passion" for, in your loins, lust; "furnace" is a fitting description because you need to fuel it with lustful thoughts and romantic actions, spending lots of time together (or spending lots of time thinking about them) inappropriately, to get it to the point of being heated).
Ephesians 4:20-24 (ESV)
20 But that is not the way you learned Christ!— 21 assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, 22 to put off your old self,[a] which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
Masuyo-Rie-Takahashi
God didn't say in the beginning either that He was going to make a woman for him. He said, "I will make a partner suitable for you". A suitable partner for Him was a woman, but not everyones suitable partner is opposite sex.
Then if you can keep it to friendship go ahead and enjoy same sex friendship/companionship like we all can. Partners, companions, fellowshipping with other believers. In a platonic way. We can be of one mind/of one heart with people of the same sex (friendship, like David and Jonathan),
1 Samuel 18:1-4(ESV)
1 As soon as he had finished speaking to Saul, the soul of Jonathan was knit to the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. 2 And Saul took him that day and would not let him return to his father's house. 3 Then Jonathan made a covenant with David, because he loved him as his own soul. 4 And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was on him and gave it to David, and his armor, and even his sword and his bow and his belt.
...but becoming "one flesh" with another person involves someone of the opposite sex. And as a testament to the fact, in the same chapter, Michal is given to David as a wife (v. 20, 27).
inb4: remember, Jesus said adultery started by looking at someone with lust, so I'm not solely referring to abstaining from physical sex when I mention platonic; this would also include not feeding the mind lustful thoughts/allowing it to linger on lustful thoughts, disciplining your thought life, not just your body—it is possible.
There are testimonies of bisexuals and lesbians being delivered of their lifestyle and orientations.
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:26 am
Dragonbait
I'm going to speak against homosexuals, anti-homosexuals, and myself, all at once. Play close attention, lest ye be confused (a common reaction to my writing xp ).
Okay, last time I checked my Bible, homosexuality was still a sin. It's always been a sin, and will always be a sin. God's opinion on the subject hasn't changed. I won't bother quoting chapters and verses here unless I'm specifically asked, only 'cause I figure most people already know all the relevant verses.
Yeah, I know, it's not popular, or trendy, or politically correct, to say such things. I don't care. I'm more interested in what God says than in what people want Him to say.
Having said that, though ... something I don't get, something I'll never get, is why non-homosexuals (most notably Christians) have always wanted to treat homosexuality as something special. Like, it's extra-heinous or something. It's not. It's no different. It's the same as normal adultery, or cheating, or disrespecting our parents, or telling white lies, or whatever. Homosexuals have been persecuted over the years, but why haven't some other classes of sinner? (Perfect example: you said yourself you'd been kicked out of one church for being gay, but why aren't thieves banned from the same church? Even laying that aside, they shouldn't have banned you in the first place, but ... )
God has His law. And the Bible states quite simply that if we break any one part of the Law, it's the same as breaking the whole thing. Homosexuality is not any different from any other possible sin. And I grow sick of people (on both sides of the equation) who try to pretend that it is.
Now ... let me pick on another sin, and another person: myself. I am angry. No, I mean my mood varies between "I'm not in the mood to hurt anyone yet" to "I know six ways to cripple you permanently" most of the time, with only the occasional foray into niceness. I have a phenomenally low opinion of the human race, and wouldn't weep much if half of us were wiped out in a nuclear explosion.
And ... that's wrong of me. That's sinful, right there. That is 'Bait being sinful, being angry without cause. Shame on me.
And I mean that "shame on me" part. Because I recognize my sin, and I struggle constantly to overcome it. I fail sometimes, and that pains me -- a lot, more than I can possibly ever describe -- but I keep trying, and with God's help, there are many times when I succeed.
Some people talk of being "born gay". I was "born pissed". Both are wrong. Both are better expressed as "born sinful", which pretty much describes the entire human race.
Y'know what the difference is, then, 'twixt thee and me?
It's this: You've got people telling you "it's okay", and you want to believe them. I've got God telling me "'Bait, calm down" ... and I'm trying to obey Him. That is the only difference. Otherwise, we're the same, you and I: we're both sinners, just like the rest of humanity. To your credit, though, I'll certainly acknowledge that you said you're "open to hearing both sides now and willing to accept the fact that one day" you "may stand corrected". That's big of you, and good of you; better than most people I've encountered.
"Who would want to live a life against the will of God?" Is that a trick question? *Glances around.* Do I really have to make a list of names for you? Let's face it; everybody tries a life against the will of God, at one point or another.
Well said. 3nodding
Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:29 am
Neuneu
I think it's wonderful that you can say that you are a gay christian. Many people have this deep seeded though that if they are Christian, they cannot be gay because it is a sin. I believe that God loves all his children and if he didn't you wouldn't be made the way you are. There are many questionable bible verses out there, but I am proud of you for self admittance and you are a beautiful person for that!
You can't live that lifestyle and call yourself a "Christian". That's like saying , "I'm a thief that's a Christian".
If I may be so bold. This topic is important to me.
I do not believe sexuality itself is a sin. Everyone has some sort of sexuality, so assuming that homosexuals, pansexuals, bisexuals, ect. are living in sin, would mean you had to assume heterosexuals were also living in sin. Which would be premarital sex or sex with someone of the opposite sex. This would also mean that asexual people were living in sexual sin, despite not being sexually attracted to anyone or anything and most likely not having any relations either.
It is not the sexuality that is a sin, but the actions people associate with it. Homosexuals are associated with man on man or woman on woman, but I know homosexuals who refuse to partake in actions like that despite their feelings because it is a sin, or they find it morally wrong outside of their faith or religious values.
Sexuality is what you find to be sexually attractive in someone else. Some people find anything human sexually attractive (pansexuals) some only the same sex (homosexuals) some only the opposite sex (heterosexuals) some both (bisexual) and some non (asexual). Some are not sexually attracted to anything physical but are sexually attracted to personalities. (No, it is not the same as pansexual).
There are also different types of romantic attractions. Aromatic (not romantically attracted) hetero-romantic(aromatically attracted to opposite sex only) etc.
You can have a different sexuality than romantic orientation. Example: I am asexual, I am not sexually attracted to anyone or anything. but I am hetero-romantic because I desire romantic relationships and can only feel that way toward people of the opposite sex. I have a boyfriend, I want to get married and have kids, I love kids, but I don't really have sexual desires so the kid thing will kinda be hard. Maybe I will adopt.
ANYWAY! I digress....
I see us as several parts. the groin which is our sex, the mind which is our gender identity, the heart which is our sexuality or romantic orientation, and our hand, the way we act. Sexual Orientation, Romantic Orientation, and Gender Identity I personally believe are effected by genetics or birth defects, traumatizing events, and in some cases over medication...(many meds effect your sex drive so I can see it effecting that is some way) and the actions are purely choice. The combination of sexuality, gender identity, and romantic orientation is what makes not committing the sin hard.
Example: A heterosexual man slept with over 20 girls before he got saved. Since then he has been abstinent. He is saving himself for his future wife now. He even avoids thinking lustful thoughts about others.
A homosexual man slept with 5 guys in college and has since been saved. Even though he does not like women sexually, he refuses to partake in relationships with other men. He has even avoided any situations that could prompt sexual thoughts about the other men.
A bisexual girl had several girlfriends and a few boyfriends in high school. She slept with them all. By college she started only going out with the women, officially, but slept with guys on the side. When she got saved she eventually became less promiscuous and ended up single because she could not manage a relationship with a man and did not want to sin by going out with a woman.
At the end of those paragraphs none of them are doing anything more or less than the other. None of them are committing a sexual sin, and as such their sexuality is not a sin. They are loosely based on some people I know.
Now, here are verses and kinda what I get out of them, some you would have to read in context.
Leviticus 18:22 - Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination. (man on man sex is a sin, which would also imply that woman on woman is too)
Genesis 1:28 - And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that move upon the earth. (marriage is intended for man and woman so they may procreate and populate the earth)
1 Corinthians 7:1-9 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. Now as a concession, not a command, I say this. I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another. To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. 9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion. (Marriage is designed for the people who can not abstain from sex. If someone does not have the desire for sex, it is even better for them to not engage in it, than it is for two people who can not avoid it to become married and engage in it through Godly means)
That is my opinion on the matter anyway, and some of the verses that helped me reach this way of thinking.
But in short:
Sexuality and sexual orientation of ANY SORT is not a sin. But adultery or sexual action that goes with ANY SEXUALITY is a sin outside of a marriage between a man and a woman toward each other.
Sexuality can change, and many people experience it changing on their own, again their will. It can also change through God, and regardless of if it changes or not people are capable of engaging in marriage and sex with someone of any sex or gender.
A sin is a sin is a sin. All sins can be forgiven and all sins can be overcome through the grace of God.
Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:28 pm
give me a treat
Neuneu
I think it's wonderful that you can say that you are a gay christian. Many people have this deep seeded though that if they are Christian, they cannot be gay because it is a sin. I believe that God loves all his children and if he didn't you wouldn't be made the way you are. There are many questionable bible verses out there, but I am proud of you for self admittance and you are a beautiful person for that!
You can't live that lifestyle and call yourself a "Christian". That's like saying , "I'm a thief that's a Christian".
well you can, in that there are episciple churches out there with rainbow flags out front and a lesbian preist inside preaching about how all christians should support gay marriage. I however think it runs completely counter to what's in the bible and what every traditional christian church has always preached from the begining this religion. It is an obvious heresy.
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