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 Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:24 pm
 Another member wrote: I do think that abortion is murder because it is equivalent to murder, regardless of whether the fetus is a viable life or not. Another member wrote: So do you support criminal prosecution for the mothers who seek abortions? Even the ones who had been raped? Why not? Another member wrote: No, while the action is equivalent the punishment should not be. Killing a fetus is equivalent to killing a 2 yr old baby, but the mother who had the abortion should not be prosecuted because her intent is not equivalent to a murder's intent. If abortion is murder, should the women seeking and getting abortions be prosecuted? What particular legal principle is being applied to excuse murder? Note: for the purposes of this debate, assume that it has been shown that abortion is murder. This is not the place to debate whether this is true.
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Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:02 am
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Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:17 pm
If abortion were legally defined as murder, then yes, it would be premeditated murder. After all, hardly anyone accidentally walks into a clinic and accidentally tells a doctor they want their child aborted. The age of a murder victim doesn't matter. You kill someone 20 years old, you go to jail. You kill someone aged 80, and you go to the same jail. Here is a list of mothers who killed their children and were put on death row for it. So then a legal precedent does exist. Not in killing fetal children, sure, but there's still precedent if we are going with your premise.
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Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:11 am
The problem is that abortion isn't murder, at least not wit the current legal definition of murder. Murder refers specifically to the unlawful taking of a human life with malicious intent.
Even if abortion were made illegal, I think you'd be hard-pressed to prove malicious intent on the part of either the woman or the medical professionals who provided the abortion. Women get abortions because they do not want to be pregnant, not because they're thinking "DIE FEOTUS DIE ZOMG I HATE YOU SO MUCH SO I MUST KILL YOU."
....or at least, most women aren't thinking that. I guess I can't speak for every woman who has ever sought an abortion, but at least in the vast majority of cases, the act lacks malicious intent, thus making it not murder.
EDIT: I realise that you said to assume that abortion was murder for the sake of this discussion, but murder is a specific crime with specific criteria that must be met in order for it to be murder. I'm not condemning nor condoning abortion morally by saying this, just pointing out that the question is inherently flawed.
That being said, if the definition of murder changed and abortion was classified as murder, I suppose the woman who received the abortion could very well be prosecuted as a murderer. More likely, though, the doctor would be charged with the murder as s/he did the actual killing. The woman in question would probably more realistically be charged with conspiracy to commit murder, or something similar.
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Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:54 pm
 ... {Here's my argument against our Court's unsound logic.
If a pregnant mother was hit by a car, either by accident or on purpose, the guilty party would be convicted of either murder or manslaughter on two accounts
(1- for the mother, and 2- for the unborn child)
But somehow... when a mother puts her own child to death its not considered murder OR malicious intent? How is killing a child NOT malicious intent? }...
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Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:02 pm
I agree with both of the points VK Fox and IX Odysseia made.
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Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:11 pm
... {To answer the question:
The law should be changed to acknowledge the willful termination of a child past conception is classified as murder, unless it is determined a MUST by MD's in order to save the mother's life.
Women who commit abortion post-law change should be tried for murder (the equivalent of murdering an infant). However, I don't believe its the court system's right to try EVERY woman who has EVER committed abortion before the law was changed (which would not be a fair or Just judicial system). At that point, it would be God's position to judge them, not man's - for at the time it was perfectly acceptable by law. }...
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Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:18 am
Those of you that know me personally, know that abortion is a touchy subject for me. I believe whole heartedly that abortion is murder, and that it is wrong. It effects the male just as much as the female. Let me give you a situation, and see what u think.
3 years ago, I got my gf at the time pregnant. When she told me, I told her everything is ok. Whatever you decide, I'll support you. Wether it be to keep the child, or to give them up for adoption. We decided adoption would be the best course of action. We were both seniors in highschool, I didn't have a job, and neither did she. When she told her parents, and told them what we decided to do, they banned me from the house. I didn't get to see her outside of school, and at this point, the christian school we were going to was condemning us for it. So even though I had some of the same classes with her, I wasnt allowed to sit with her at lunch. I was the one that picked her up in the mornings and took her home after school, I wasn't allowed to do that anymore either. Contact got limited to the internet and our phones. FOr the following month, her parents kept bearing down on her to get an abortion. By the time 2 months went by in the pregnancy, they had threatened to throw her out of the house and cut off all ties with her if she didnt get the abortion. She then told me on the internet, that I had no say in this. She reminded me what I had said in the beginning, that I will support whatever decision she made, and that she was getting an abortion. As much as I had been fighting for that month, it all came to nothing. All I could say was ok. She told me afterwards, the reason her parents insisted on the abortion is because they werent ready to be grandparents.
So here is my question. Situations like these happen all the time. With so much pressure put on the girl, and the man being reduced to very limited contact, is this malicious intent on account of the couple? I am still counseling my ex through this, while myself still suffering. Abortion is not something one should take lightly. This is why i get so uptight when someone starts going "ITS THE RIGHT OF THE GIRL, ITS HER BODY" yea, it's also her soul, and until you have gone through this situation, you have no right to say that abortion is the way to go.
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thrashmetaljunkie Captain
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Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:36 am
SinfulGuillotine The problem is that abortion isn't murder, at least not wit the current legal definition of murder. Murder refers specifically to the unlawful taking of a human life with malicious intent. Even if abortion were made illegal, I think you'd be hard-pressed to prove malicious intent on the part of either the woman or the medical professionals who provided the abortion. Women get abortions because they do not want to be pregnant, not because they're thinking "DIE FEOTUS DIE ZOMG I HATE YOU SO MUCH SO I MUST KILL YOU." ....or at least, most women aren't thinking that. I guess I can't speak for every woman who has ever sought an abortion, but at least in the vast majority of cases, the act lacks malicious intent, thus making it not murder. EDIT: I realise that you said to assume that abortion was murder for the sake of this discussion, but murder is a specific crime with specific criteria that must be met in order for it to be murder. I'm not condemning nor condoning abortion morally by saying this, just pointing out that the question is inherently flawed. That being said, if the definition of murder changed and abortion was classified as murder, I suppose the woman who received the abortion could very well be prosecuted as a murderer. More likely, though, the doctor would be charged with the murder as s/he did the actual killing. The woman in question would probably more realistically be charged with conspiracy to commit murder, or something similar. Proper understanding of murder, misconception on malicious act. One who kills for the heck of it is just as malicious in his intent as him who kills with the desire to kill. One who kills for the soul purpose of the preservation of their own life or lively hood are just as malicious in intent as she who kills out of hatred. I would argue that abortion still classifies as murder because it is still malicious, despite how one may feel about the reason. Personally I can sympathize with the man who kills others wishing to 'free them from their sins,' he is quite wrong, and still quite malicious in his intents. (though he believes the intent to be good) I might sympathize with him to some extent, but no amount of sympathy I might have for him, nor how good he might find himself changes the malicious intent, nor the malicious act which he kills. VK Fox and Odyssia beautiful replies, worded quite well and shows good understanding of the subject at hand. (SinfulGuillotine, I did enjoy your reply and it made me think, though I cannot agree with it.)
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Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:15 am
NO they shouldn't. An act out of fear and lies shoudln't lead to the mother being proscecuted. We should love them and after all a lot of post abortive mothers are great leaders in the Prolife movement
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Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:52 pm
thrashmetaljunkie This is why i get so uptight when someone starts going "ITS THE RIGHT OF THE GIRL, ITS HER BODY".
I always laugh at that argument.
The little one, which is what "fetus" means (it's Latin), has its own body separate from hers. Certainly it is dependent on her to survive, but that doesn't make it her body.
My general response to that argument is along the lines of this: "Oh really? Her body is the one getting chopped up? Her body is the one getting burnt up with acid? Her body is the one getting killed?"
I also find the concept of "rights" as people often talk about them very interesting, as though people are born with inherent rights to do certain things just because a legal system says so.
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Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:54 pm
IX Odysseia IX ... {Here's my argument against our Court's unsound logic.
If a pregnant mother was hit by a car, either by accident or on purpose, the guilty party would be convicted of either murder or manslaughter on two accounts
(1- for the mother, and 2- for the unborn child)
But somehow... when a mother puts her own child to death its not considered murder OR malicious intent? How is killing a child NOT malicious intent? }...
Beautiful exposure of a legal fallacy. heart
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Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:25 am
I am, and always will be against abortion, but I will not judge the mother (Hate the sin and not the sinner, right?) It does upset me to find that there are women out there who use abortion as a contraception. (Actually that pisses me off, but I still do not pass judgement for I believe that is up to God) My mother is an abortion survivor, so as you can imagine that is one reason I am against it. Its hard when the mother has to choose between her life and the babies, or its a young girl who has been raped, or they are pressured into it by parents or other family members even sometimes their partner. There are women who I guess I would consider to have malicious intent when getting an abortion (Like my mothers biological mother for instance.)
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Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:51 pm
It really all depends on the situation I think. If it can be proven that the woman simply slept around, got pregnant, and decided that a baby wasn't worth actually giving birth than I think these women should be prosecuted. But let's say the woman is raped, pregnant by incest, is under the age of consent, or if having the baby will ultimately kill the mother and/or the baby than I don't believe that the woman/girl should be prosecuted.
If a woman sleeps around without using protection, and is over 18, than she knows and understands the consequences of her actions. She is competent enough to know that having sex with or without protection could result in an abortion. Just like I believe that if a woman smokes/drinks/does drugs while knowing she is pregnant and something is wrong with the baby, or the baby dies, the woman should be prosecuted.
If a woman is raped, pregnant by incest, or isn't competent enough to understand that having sex, even just once, can result in pregnancy should not be prosecuted. Though I would not agree with said decision, I would understand the reason behind it. A 13 year old girl isn't emotionally ready to have sex or have a baby...therefore the girl should be be prosecuted. And a pregnant woman who's live would be taken by having a baby, especially if the baby would die as well. has a terrible choice to make and in no means takes it lightly.
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Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:36 pm
I look at it as no matter what the mother did or didn't do, it's not that infant's fault it was not intended. Even if the mother was raped the child should not be denied it's right to live.
I do, however, believe that abortion is appropriate if bringing the baby to full term may kill the mother or it is discovered that it will indefinitely be born with severe retardation or disabilities that will prevent it from having a pleasant life. To some it may sound cruel but if it's a mercy killing to euthanize an animal with the same conditions why then is it murder to force a child to grow up miserable or indifferent to the world?
Other than that though, abortion isn't just normally wrong and unnecessary, it's inhumane. I've never heard of a single pleasant way to abort a child without first causing extreme harm to the fetus. I've heard horror stories of the mothers feeling the child writhing in pain while being killed and if simply not wanting to give birth is not a mercy killing. That's murder.
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