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Sir_Catherine Vice Captain
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 Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:54 pm
This demon is worthy of his own discussion thread, right?
I'm reading a paranormal series by Kelley Armstrong featuring various supernatural beings. It's not my usual reading, but aside from the werewolf focused books, I really like her Otherworld set. Anyway, the link with the topic is Lucifer is one of a number of demon lords. Asmondai, Balaam and Satan are other demon lords mentioned.
What I found interesting is, in the Otherworld series, Lucifer, being a fallen angel, is a rather unique demon lord. He can't be summoned by any necromancer and it's rumored that "Lucifer retains the powers of an angel, including his sword of judgement, which can send souls to purgatory." Just quoted the last part from page 77 of Spell Bound, by Kelley Armstrong.
A demon with a sword of judgement. A fallen angel retaining angelic powers. Interesting concepts both on their own and in light of Hellsing. Food for thought.
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:18 am
The lore seems to vary quite a bit, but aren't all demons considered fallen angels? I thought Satan and Lucifer were the same being?
Interesting concept, him keeping his angelic powers. There was a Christian allegory-type fantasy book I read a long time ago called Red Moon and Black Mountain that had the Morning Star appear at the end as a beautiful angel. I think it's only after association with Pan that he got red and pointy.
*note to self, read Paradise Lost one day*
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Sir_Catherine Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:50 pm
In the Otherworld setting, Satan and Lucifer are different, but then Satan isn't the Lord of Hell either, just one of a number of high ranking demons. The whole bit of him being rumored to be a fallen angel, unlike most of the demon lords, is also just part of the in-series lore. It's a pretty well worked out supernatural mythos and world.
The mention of him appearing at the end of a series makes me think of the end of Being a Green Mother by Piers Anthony. It's part of his Incarnations of Immortality series. Ever read or heard of it? Quite interesting, if you'd like me to tell you more about it. I don't want to spoil the end or I'd tell you the scene your words made me think of...
I, too, need to read Paradise Lost.
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Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:06 pm
Ooh, I've read a few of the Otherworld series. Just picked them up at a yard sale by randomosity and really enjoyed them. I go through books pretty fast, so I like to get them on the chearp. ^^
I've seen "Being a Green Mother" somewhere recently. Is it wortth picking up?
As for the Satan Lucifer thing, this would be the first time I've heard of them being two seperate entities which is interesting. But I would definitely agree the whole red and pointy image probably came from the clashing of Christianity and various Pagan religions way back. It could even be borowed from Pan in some ways. Interesting nonethless.
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Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:37 am
I think I've read at least one Piers Anthony book, but was put off by the length of the series or something.
Is Eblis/Iblis included in the series? Seems he is sometimes equated with Satan, and sometimes separate. He showed up in two classes I was taking in the same week at one point (Poe's Tamerlane in one and an excerpt from Beckford's Vathek in another).
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Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:12 pm
I've heard of Pan getting mixed up into our modern image of Satan before.
I'd say "Being a Green Mother" was a good read, yes. It's several books along in Anthony's "Immortal Incarnations" series though. I didn't know it at the time I read it but it was still a good, interesting, book. I finally read the first book in the series not too long ago and did enjoy it. Fantasy, as a whole, isn't my first pick as a genre so don't mind me if I don't gush over the books. smile I prefer science fiction by a large margin.
Eblis/Iblis? Don't recall ever hearing those names in reference to the Incarnations series, sorry. Could be wrong though. While I've read the dust jackets for each book I've only fully read the first entry and the "Green Mother" one.
Oh, my mother said she's read several of this series and did like them. She reads even less fantasy than I do, so I'd say this is a mark in their favor.
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Sir_Catherine Vice Captain
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Sir_Catherine Vice Captain
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Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:17 pm
That last post was longer than I expected and all around the one series, so I'll speak on Otherworld here. Huh; anyone else amused at how this thread has become a literary discussion?
Do you know which of the Otherworld books you've read, Mercury? I'm tempted to go back and read the four werewolf focused books I've skipped so far. If you've read them, were they good? Actually, I don't doubt that they are good, I'm just not keen on the werewolf supernatural sub-sub-genera. Not sure if my enjoyment of the series setting and surrounding characters will outweigh that were I to sit and read them.
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Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:09 pm
Sadly I'm not 100% sure. I had a friend on my bus ride to work who I used to exchange books with, and they were books I have long given back to hre before she moved.
But I believe Spellbound was one of them and the other two I know centered around witches and vampires mostly, and were set in California. I know that's not much to go on biggrin I go through books so fast sometimes they kind of blend together after they're done. ^-^
I may have to have a look at that Piers Anthony seried. I think he had an Adept series as well if I recall. I love both sci-fi and fantasy....who am I kidding, I'll read almost anything. razz
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Sir_Catherine Vice Captain
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Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:46 pm
Adepts sounds familiar...*curious now, checks Wiki*...yep, I've read the first book of the Adepts series. A friend lent me the book years ago and I really enjoyed it. Didn't know it was part of a series. You know...this friend of mine apparently had a habit of doing this to me! (He was the same one who lent me "Being a Green Mother".) I should look into rereading "Split Infinity" and checking out the rest of that series.
Spellbound, yep, read that one. It's the 12th of the Otherworld books and the latest Armstrong has written for the series. Just finished reading it last week, actually.
If I recall rightly, four of the Otherworld books focus on werewolves, four on witches and four on other supernaturals.
You know, years ago I consciously decided not to try to read everything because I was driving myself crazy, lol. I claim now that I read mostly history and science fiction though if you look at my reading list it doesn't often seem like it. But it's a nice fiction to hold to when 1) I need to find my sanity or 2) someone is trying to push a book at me that I don't want to read. *cough*twilight*cough*romance*
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Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:57 pm
Haha. I used to be the same way with romance and still am with Twilight. Sorry, Vampires do NOT sparkle, and Bella is a two faced player who breaks men's hearts. *end rant*
I actually gave a talk to a group of romance writers about haunted places with a romance twist as fuel for inspiration. And at the end we were all chatting and I admitted frankly that I hated reading romance. They took it as a challenge and sent me home with two books, and my promise to read them with an open mind.
Very begrudgingly I have to admit I am starting to like some paranormal romance now, as long as it isn't too smutty or slushy. But then again I've always liked supernatural and ghostly stuff.
Split Infinity! That was the one I was thinking about. I read that as well. Though the series gets a little odd later on and if I recall correctly there are some vague homosexual references a few books in.
And wow, I am not surprised at all that we've derailed the conversation into books, but I'll do my part to try to bring it back to topic. biggrin
Did a little looking and it appears there is a pretty wide belief that Satan and Lucifer are seperate. They say Lucifer is referred to as the light bringer and Satan as the worthy adversary and they are said in some places to be seperate fallen angels. An interesting idea.
I saw this painting once and have been trying to find it since this conversation came up. But it depicted Lucifer falling down from heaven while looking up at God who holds his gaze away in apparent disgust. But in the picture he is very beautiful and still has the angel wings, though one of them is injured and partially burnt. It was a very poignant piece of art. I wish I could find it again.
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Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:29 am
Sir_Catherine
Eblis/Iblis? Don't recall ever hearing those names in reference to the Incarnations series, sorry. Oh, I meant the Otherworld series you mentioned, actually, since it was about demon lords. Sorry, that was pretty ambiguous. Mercury: Is that associated with Jehovah's Witness, or some other denomination? I think my JW buddies said something about Lucifer being the spirit-brother of Jesus (who they also say is the same as Michael). The painting sounds really cool, and relevant to my interests. ninja I'm trying to do sculptures of winged people.
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Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:37 am
GS Parallel Mercury And wow, I am not surprised at all that we've derailed the conversation into books, but I'll do my part to try to bring it back to topic. biggrin
@ Aeronn
Ah, okay. (on which series for Eblis/Iblis) Still haven't come cross the names though. I did a quick search on the Otherworld wiki and there were no hits for those names, just to note. There is a wiki for anything and everything nowadays, isn't there?
Jesus the same as Michael? That's different.
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Sir_Catherine Vice Captain
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Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:55 am
Sir_Catherine Jesus the same as Michael? That's different. Yup. They're against Trinitarianism, and consider Lucifer and all the angels to be "sons of God" with Jesus. But Jesus is said to command angels, so they decided he's an archangel. But Michael is said to be the archangel, so they say Michael is Jesus' pre-incarnate form. Since Lucifer is also powerful, they might have made him and Jesus initially close "spirit-brothers," but I don't remember. That particular point didn't seem very well-supported.
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Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:47 pm
It all depends with what source you want to go with.
If you want to stick to the Real Source, ie the Holy Bible, then Satan has many names, Lucifer included. He is a fallen angel, is incredibly cunning, and masquerades as a beautiful angel of light. Any power he retains is allowed him by God. Satan is actually quite restricted in what he can do. He needs permission for just about everything. However, once he gets permission, he's quite capable.
He also has access to heaven and audiences at the Throne of God, which is surprising to most people. He's also not the lord of Hell and not currently in Hell.
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