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Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:33 pm
Welp, time for another one of these. I want to make a poll in the z!F asking what little fixes/additions people would like to see done on the game. I won't mind putting some larger features on the poll as well, but I'm thinking stuff that some non-major update should give us here. As usual, there's barely any room for poll options, so I have to pick some decent choices before even starting to do this. Give me a hand here. What options should I put in this barely representative poll? I demand that you be HIGHLY SPECIFIC about this. If you say "Ring Balance" or "Fix Bugs", I'll just scoff your idea off. You better instead say "Buff Taunt and Hornest into usefulness" or "Let us start over quests if they break". Possibilities: >Other? (This WILL be the top option) >Make Taunt and Hornest useful >Make ?which ring? uselful >Make ?which ring? LESS uselful ninja >Add a new ring >Let us start over quests we haven't completed >Let us see pre-quest dialog in the on-going quest list >Fix the max health glitch when sorting equipped rings in the ring tray ninja >Fix the rage glitch when re-applying some of the RR1 buffs ninja >Increase chance of seeing rare spawns >Make rare spawns that drop rare loot >Give ?X? ability to ?Y? animated >Fix the Shadow Orb counter >Fix the Heavy Breathing sound mute >Allow us to see gold collected during game session >Allow us to see badge progress in-game >Allow us to block Buddies on our screen >Give buddies a passive boost >Let us name buddies >Add some new powerups >Fix the clan chat >Allow "World" chat for 1 GC each 5 messages>Give back/Use mini-event loot on recipes >Use Gramster Goo on a recipe >Give back/Use Balls of Fluff on a recipe >Make recipes to "upgrade" (use as loot) current crafted items >Make recipes that use game items from other gaia classic games >Make Coliseum Quests >Make Coliseum Loot/Recipes >Recycle the christmas event> Give us a visible numeric value of Ghi Boost Progress >Allow players to challenge to 'duel' each other ninja >Allow players to check each other's badges in-game >Allow players to see 'highest CL' of others in-game >Update the developer avatars on the barton bar ninja >More devs>Make the NPC's hint at DMS after beating Sealab X >Make a Crew Billboard so we can stop shouting/complaining about randoms so much >Add aquarium fish as in-game enemies. Hey! They owe us this!>All ninja
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Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:33 am
>Add a new ring Done to death >> I'd much rather see threads on how to fix current rings. 3nodding >Let us start over quests we haven't completed You mean quest chains? Such as in Otami where you could have the option to start right back at finding the blood tree? I can see some problems arising out of this. >Let us see pre-quest dialog in the on-going quest list We should have this. smile >Fix the rage glitch when re-applying some of the RR1 buffs ninja Also, a visual indicator of the current rage of your buffs. Someone suggested color coded borders for each buff in the crew panel >Increase chance of seeing rare spawns Hmm.. 3nodding >Make rare spawns that drop rare loot Okay, now me want. emotion_dowant >Give ?X? ability to ?Y? animated Yeah, more debuffs and cc please. DMS should've had them tbh >Fix the Shadow Orb counter I'm gonna assume they're working on this. emotion_facepalm >Fix the Heavy Breathing sound mute Lol! It's far too lol-worthy for me to want to consider fixing it xd >Allow us to see gold collected during game session Why did they change this? sad >Allow us to block Buddies on our screen If passive buffs are brought in which will end up in a huge amount of buddy spamming, then yes. This will be essential. >Fix the clan chat >Allow "World" chat for 1 GC each 5 messagesI'm hoping this will be fixed soon. It's been working on and off as of late which I see as a sign that the devs are tinkering with it at the very least >Give back/Use mini-event loot on recipes Yes please! emotion_c8 >Use Gramster Goo on a recipe Gramster goo? *rushes back to the sewers* >Make recipes to "upgrade" (use as loot) current crafted items Oooh! emotion_kirakira We should have a separate thread about this. >Make recipes that use game items from other gaia classic games I think someone mentioned this just recently. 3nodding But me likey. >Make Coliseum Quests I said the very thing to Gataka in the JK meat thread a few days ago so yes!!! >Make Coliseum Loot/Recipes >Recycle the christmas eventAgain, yes! Although I have no clue about the christmas event sad >Allow players to challenge to 'duel' each other ninja PVP? You Serious? confused >Allow players to see 'highest CL' of others in-game >Update the developer avatars on the barton bar ninja >More devsWhat if they have a cl12 turtle? lol And I've seen Mav's avy constantly updated as he updates his. Not really sure how that happens xd >Make the NPC's hint at DMS after beating Sealab X Ffff.....I brought this up twice during JK meets only to be ignored by JK and shot down by the others. rolleyes People just don't think long term enough, DMS is big news now and the reason why everyone is playing it, but I can see a year from now, people not even knowing it exists unless they point out to it. >Make a Crew Billboard so we can stop shouting/complaining about randoms so much >Add aquarium fish as in-game enemies. Hey! They owe us this!>All ninja emotion_jawdrop You guys just continue to astound me with each idea you guys bring up. emotion_kirakira It is just so damn complete in every way and definitely needs mentioning again. 3nodding But as someone already pointed out, it's also a little overwhelming so a tutorial would be a must. One of my crewmates once mentioned we should be able to grab fish from SS for our aquariums. xd
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Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:34 am
If it's quite alright with you, I'll respond to you and Quint simultaneously - there's a lot here, so I'm trying to be efficient. sweatdrop
Silk Kanishk >Add a new ring Done to death >> I'd much rather see threads on how to fix current rings. 3nodding Seconded, actually. We have 40 rings, and only use about 20 (at most), in any given situation. I think it's better that the game work to facilitate tactics that allow for more general usefulness of rings, before we add more junk on top of an already broken system.
Quote: >Let us start over quests we haven't completed You mean quest chains? Such as in Otami where you could have the option to start right back at finding the blood tree? I can see some problems arising out of this. I believe he means specific quests, in which case this would - presumably - be a work-around for glitches. That is, it would allow you to abandon a glitched quest (be it a silent NPC or other unfinishable quest, or even an already-finished quest that snuck back into the Quest log), rather than dragging the same quest around permanently.
The biggest issue I see with it is that 'abandoning' a quest serves as an unintuitive fix - it's doing the opposite of what players naturally want to do (finish the quest), and so without dedicating some tutorial time to it (an investment that might go farther to fixing the glitches directly), it would be easy for most players to overlook as a solution. Still, the option is good whether for this reason or otherwise, I just suspect it won't be doing as much as we'd like.
Quote: >Let us see pre-quest dialog in the on-going quest list We should have this. smile Agreed, completely. If we want people invested in the story (which we do), we need to make it as easy as possible to keep track of. If the notion of Manga-style cutscenes ever pans out, I'd suggest likewise for it. 3nodding
Quote: >Fix the rage glitch when re-applying some of the RR1 buffs ninja Also, a visual indicator of the current rage of your buffs. Someone suggested color coded borders for each buff in the crew panel Agreed, on both counts. The visual indicator is clever, but simple borders would be potentially difficult to read; I suspect using (no border)-green-yellow-red would work well enough, though. Additionally, they would look unfortunately similar to the "conning" feature for character/enemy levels, and that would imply that they indicate CL, rather than Rage Rank. It just sends a confusing message to use the same 'language' in two completely different manners. sweatdrop
I like the idea of having an indicator, and borders seem effective - I just think we'd need a bit more consideration before we determine the best way to utilise them.
Quote: >Increase chance of seeing rare spawns Hmm.. 3nodding Only if it's meaningful to do so. But we're about to get to that. sweatdrop
Quote: >Make rare spawns that drop rare loot Okay, now me want. emotion_dowant It'd be good, but I wouldn't go overboard - unfortunately we don't have any mid-range difficuly recipes, at the moment; we have old, normal, ridiculously simple ones, and new, 'epic, stupidly inaccessible ones. How about some Recipes for the other 99% of zOMG's usership? [/Occupy zOMG!] stressed
Quote: >Give ?X? ability to ?Y? animated Yeah, more debuffs and cc please. DMS should've had them tbh If they get around to bi-weekly updates, this is what I want to see - small, simply enemy tweaks to find a good balance. Give OMGs Fear for two weeks, and see how it works; if it's overbearing, remove it. Simple, consistent modifications that intentionally move the game in the direction of being more interesting - rather than just adding junk willy-nilly.
This is the same method I'd like to see used for ring balance, as well - simple tweaks that move the game toward better, more engaging gameplay. At the very worst, we wind up with a completely broken (or completely useless) ring, for a total of two weeks before it's fixed. At least it'll get people coming experiment.
Quote: >Fix the Shadow Orb counter I'm gonna assume they're working on this. emotion_facepalm When DMS was released, this had me in complete despair - how could they possibly overlook something like this? gonk
I'll presume it's in-the-works, as well. redface
Quote: >Fix the Heavy Breathing sound mute Lol! It's far too lol-worthy for me to want to consider fixing it xd Everything should be optional - our "Options" panel needs way more sliders and radio boxes. whee
Quote: >Allow us to see gold collected during game session Why did they change this? sad It was never intentional - the gold counter was glitching, causing it to fail when attempting to load the initial values. This wasn't ever intended to be a feature.
That said, it should be, and it would be hard to do (simply by remembering the now-properly-loading initial value, and comparing it to the current one) - I'd have the game show both when you mouseover the Gold amount in the header, and have the option to choose which of the two displays there. People really seem to like it (and with the nerf in place, it's arguably useful), so there's obviously a good reason to make the simple change.
Quote: >Allow us to block Buddies on our screen If passive buffs are brought in which will end up in a huge amount of buddy spamming, then yes. This will be essential. This isn't the reason I'd avoid passive buffs on Buddies (my argument is that they were never intended to be as relevant as those buffs would make them), but it's a good addition nonetheless. Again, every visual or audio effect should be fully customisable.
Quote: >Fix the clan chat >Allow "World" chat for 1 GC each 5 messagesI'm hoping this will be fixed soon. It's been working on and off as of late which I see as a sign that the devs are tinkering with it at the very least Never had a clan, so I don't know. However, being that that's all that Clans have (distinct from Guilds, anyway), it's kinda necessary. It would be a good start, but I'd want them to continue the Clan focus if they were to initiate it.
I'm fine with World Chat as well, so long as it's Cash-dependent (which it is in most games, and works for revenue and reducing spam), and the Chat system is updated to facilitate remote Reporting. If someone is able to go into an instance and spam the World Chat with offensive content while no-one can Report them for it, definite no-go. whee
Quote: >Give back/Use mini-event loot on recipes Yes please! emotion_c8 >Use Gramster Goo on a recipe Gramster goo? *rushes back to the sewers* All of our loot should be used in Recipes. I'm not sure why Mini-Event loot was removed, but if there's an opportunity to make more items, I'd suggest they keep at it.
If nothing else, I know Syko's proposed the idea of using Recipes to craft game items, like Powerups. If making avatar items is too much investment, I can understand just appealing to the audience that already plays.
Quote: >Make recipes to "upgrade" (use as loot) current crafted items Oooh! emotion_kirakira We should have a separate thread about this. >Make recipes that use game items from other gaia classic games I think someone mentioned this just recently. 3nodding But me likey. I was very much hoping that 'Epics' would coincide with a more comprehensive restructure of the Recipe system, utilising both of these ideas to facilitate a more balanced system. Unfortunately, that's yet to happen, but I retain some hope for it. sweatdrop
Quote: >Make Coliseum Quests I said the very thing to Gataka in the JK meat thread a few days ago so yes!!! >Make Coliseum Loot/Recipes The Coliseum was not designed with replayability in mind, and people stopped replaying it. They seem to have learned their lesson with DMS (though taking it to absurd levels, I think), so it's time togo back and fix prior errors.
From what I've noticed, players really seem to enjoy things like Impossible Survival - the gameplay in it is reasonably exciting. Currently, however, many players simply haven't chosen to try it (or don't get around to it much), and adding just a little extra incentive would increase the playability of the area disproportionately, I suspect.
Quote: >Recycle the christmas eventAgain, yes! Although I have no clue about the christmas event sad Events are always popular - a recycle with a small addition (a Christmas-y analogue to Pumpk Fluffs, for instance) would appeal to players who were fond of last year's event, as well as those who want something new to achieve. 3nodding
Quote: >Allow players to challenge to 'duel' each other ninja PVP? You Serious? confused There's a time and a place for it - this is a bigger discussion with bigger implications than we're ready to get into, right now. sweatdrop
Quote: >Allow players to see 'highest CL' of others in-game >Update the developer avatars on the barton bar ninja >More devsWhat if they have a cl12 turtle? lol And I've seen Mav's avy constantly updated as he updates his. Not really sure how that happens xd Determining a players maximum possible CL seems a little roundabout, and potentially arduous (for players with large ring inventories). Instead, tracking a player's highest CL every actually achieved would be rather easy, though not necessarily as accurate (in the case of salvaging). However, adding such a feature and alotting Badges and such for achieving milestones would be great incentives.
Also, should the game display a character's unsuppressed CL in their Character Info? It doesn't already, correct? sweatdrop
Quote: >Make the NPC's hint at DMS after beating Sealab X Ffff.....I brought this up twice during JK meets only to be ignored by JK and shot down by the others. rolleyes People just don't think long term enough, DMS is big news now and the reason why everyone is playing it, but I can see a year from now, people not even knowing it exists unless they point out to it. Yes, this needs to happen. At the very least add someone skulking in the shadows of the bar, who will 'recruit' you into DMS when you talk to him. Since DMS isn't geared toward the majority of zOMG! players, I wouldn't encourage it too strongly (as most players will get frustrated with it, and the game should be clear that it's a completely different league of difficulty), but the indication should be there.
Quote: >Make a Crew Billboard so we can stop shouting/complaining about randoms so much >Add aquarium fish as in-game enemies. Hey! They owe us this!>All ninja emotion_jawdrop You guys just continue to astound me with each idea you guys bring up. emotion_kirakira It is just so damn complete in every way and definitely needs mentioning again. 3nodding But as someone already pointed out, it's also a little overwhelming so a tutorial would be a must. One of my crewmates once mentioned we should be able to grab fish from SS for our aquariums. xd I'd like to implement something that stops the shouting in low-level areas - it was bad enough on the beach (CL 10.0s shouting in CL 7.0 territory), but DMS is a whole new league of troubles (CL 12.0s shouting outside of a CL 3.5 instances). I've suggested non-instanced 'landing zones' to those areas before (so that players could gather there, instead), but without a Null Chamber nearby they would probably go unused. Perhaps making those areas have a high Null-density (explaining why they're safe), and give players in them the ability to switch rings.
Regardless, a major overhaul of the Crew Pane (I consider the 'billboard' an advancement thereof - potentially an 'Advanced' version) would be great. Since gataka's already covered most of it in detail, I don't find myself with much more comment to make.
On the subject of snatching aquarium fish, who wants Recipes for Aquarium Mini Monsters? I suppose they're already pretty cheap, but I suspect I'd still be more likely to fill my Aquarium if I happened to have the Recipes lying around... sweatdrop
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Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:53 am
I might as well give input to both... And well, I've been with these (and others) on my mind so long, I think I should spill it out already. I don't think I have anywhere yet. This will be long. No need to respond to all of it. In fact, this whole list (and the far large version) is better discussed with a form of voice chat or instant messaging. >Add a new ringThirded. I even took it out when I made the thread. I just know people wouldn't be specific about this, on mechanics I mean, so I thought I shouldn't even put the option up. The other options, for ring rebalance, are though. >Starting over questsAnd I'm not actually happy with the option of abandoning a quest myself. Likely rare, but there's also a chance that main quests would end up messed up upon a restart, due to their sequential nature, or worse, an abandoned quest leading to a silent NPC. Still, the option would be nice. Not just for the silent glitch, but also for players who forgot what were they doing. >Quest dialog history on the PDAThis is here for the issue above. People who aren't sure why they were doing what they were, and who will likely skip dialog. Or even the very rare, but "apparently" just uncommon cases of people who read the current quests and still have no idea of what to do. The cut-scenes idea is still a favorite of mine. We already have ways of making in-game picture pop-ups at the very least, so it can be said that there's no reason to say small events can't be conveyed to players, even if it's just a more detailed picture of a character as you approach them. >Rage grant/Rage IndicatorI had to do something in a hurry for this one in the thread. People were giving it votes that I likely think wasn't intended for it to have. When I mentioned a glitch, I didn't mean the visual indication saying the buff was RR1 when it was RR4, I meant the glitch that makes some buffs give you rage when used while already being buffed. The fix would be to make all work like that, or none. I even put it alongside the trick with ring swapping, because those two are the glitches people use to build up rage "unfairly" when nothing is happening. Regardless, there is support for crew panel changes, so I guess I'll assume the former bug. I love the borders idea for borders btw. If only one could be done, I'd still prefer a better indication of a buff timer running out though. >Rare SpawnsBefore considering the loot, I must do a question: Why? Why not increase it anyways? For something that gives the game a little extra flavor, with no actual reward, these things seem to have a major cause of 2k10.11 Markpersonus Vacationitis. Even the Ring Box, the one that does give a reward and should be kept rare, seems to spawn once for every time a player takes to train 5 mules past Bassken level - or when the server is cycled ninja . But I digress. I'm not on a crusade to increase their rate. Pretty low priority. Anyways, giving them a purpose. I made a thread, starting off with a display of different kinds of rare spawns. Latter on I respond with my preference: We need predictable rare spawns the most, ones that can't be beaten alone trough finding them out of sheer luck, but not too strong that would give time for people to come flocking to get them. This would incentive hunting crews for these spawns. But overall, the point is making people play the non-instanced areas more often, even if it's just taking a stroll over areas they normally don't. The non-instance repeatable value is abysmal, and areas that feature no worthwhile instances have equivalent abysmal population. Also, a lot of people mention mini-events, which I expected, being so similar. One thing I have to say is that I'm actually disappointed with how Landshark is handled. Rare Spawns that are too strong for even a crew are meant to draw a lot of people, so they should be announced properly and should reward people anywhere in the area that participate, outside of the common luck dependencies. I remember people not getting any drops back when they were relevant because someone was moving landy across screens.All in all, I would love to have a few of these, but yes. Specially the Pink Link, it's just such a FUN idea to chase a giftbox all over the map. Red is right, not to go overboard with them. Last thing we'd need would be having to wait 6 hours for a single gilroy to spawn, have someone else kill it on the adjacent screen and it didn't even drop anything, with that being a piece of loot 10 of are needed. >Buffing monstersDMS does have CC. Not debuffs though. I wonder if the devs considered it and didn't like it or not. Slow experiments does seem the best way to balance the game. What bothered me the most about some of the changes to gameplay was how DRASTIC the change was. The wort offender wasn't even gameplay, it was GOLD. We went, in a week, from a payout of 1k at best, with gold drops once every 3 monsters to a payout of over 20k with drops every single time. Even orbs weren't so staggering at first (until everyone noticed a pattern with swarming mobs and that's how AoE was born) Not saying I'm not content with the current rings or monsters. They actually did a nice job back when they did some major overhaul of uses and ringsets. Or when they made monsters heal each other. There are still lingering issues of course. >Shadow OrbOh, they'll fix that one. They fixed the gold counter and the 99999999 glitch. Ought to be similar. Took their time. I wouldn't consider it much of a despair. As a start, I'm sure they were aware of it, but had other much worse bugs to deal with. I'm actually certain of that possibility. But still, in case of doubt: The bug doesn't happen every-time, and when it does, the biggest factor is salvaging a ring that doesn't grant shadow orbs. If you don't mess with regular orbs, the chance of it happening is considerably lower. And even when it does happen, there's about 50% chance that you can level up just fine with the counter messed up. There's the possibility of swarf testing DMS with "dev-tool-inflated" rings and just normally not doing ring salvage after a run meant for tests, so he never got to see it happen on him. >Panting>More options >Female panting Nuff said. Don't look at me like that! heck, we even had a user submission of that once. it wasn't too "sexual" either. not even google finds it, of course. Lots of /b/-made vocaroos on the search results though. >Gold CountYeah, the thing with the gold counter was that it happened exactly when we needed it the most. If there's such a thing as an opportunist parasite in code, this bug takes the cake. I too hope to see it come back. >Block BuddiesI'm actually not fully supportive of this. One of the most important traits of vanity items is the inherent "show off" status they allow. Making us able to block them is something in detriment of the very point they have. BUT, the gameplay takes priority, and the animations are themselves getting in the way of gameplay. Not everyone is adblock savvy, so there you have it. One more to the options box. >Clan ChatActually Red, even if clans had a lot of other options available to them, this would still stand out to be THE most important feature available to clans, and you ought to know it if you play any MMO ever. Clan chat allows for one simple thing: Communication. It allows people to quickly find other players willing to play with them, in a much more capable way than the very limited Shout channel. And unlike with shout, clans can do their own moderation of their chat features. If someone is much of a pest, they're thrown out. Since the game is so geared toward socialization, and since the people answering this channel are the same that will have exclusive posting rights in you exclusive guild, and thus the ones it'll be best to have easy forms of grouping up with, I can understand why the feature was there on game start. It's the best tool a clan could get, next to a in-game, clan specific "meeting space", be it a new area, or just a fully shared null chamber with clan members. Also, this is an incredible popular option in the thread. World chat is coupled together with this one for the exact same reason, only, with the broader audience, obviously. Also, it was suggested by swarf at one point. Response was negative to mixed, but most was noticeably because people didn't have a simple fact cross their mind: You can block any chat channel in-game at any time, and make this one off by default. Also, swarf didn't mention making it a cheap cash shop feature to prevent people from overspamming it constantly. >Forgotten LootI don't just think these ned to be back, I think they should prioritize reusing them when some new item is intended for introduction. Like, literally putting a memo on the the "item making program" stating, "If this is not going to use gramster goo, go back and make something that does". (Not to mention that I'd love an item that gives our avatar a green goo aura, and gramster goo seems the loot of choice)We need those. I love the idea sooooo much. The power up crafts. I picture them the same way, as being empty flasks, and we go out to get ingredients. And syko nailed down the specifics I felt appropriate for them, such as the base being a cheap CS item, common potions still being weaker than the powerup equivalents, and the most powerful being boss killers you have to take a leap and, regardless of the work, spend some noticeable gold on. His requirements still seem a tad bit high for the latter though. >Older Crafts as Loot >Site integrationYeah, the problems here are, correspondant, flushing out the Daily chance grants and make some lovely Site Integration the way Alchemy promised and failed to. From other games into zOMG! this time. that's why I'm not fully bothered by the Epics we have. I want the future ones to address this, of course, but the current ones were designed to be annexed rewards specific to DMS. Sure they could have [sarcasm]added some loot from other ares, to start doing some preemptive flushing from those, but the idea was too un-DMS-like apparentelly,[/sarcasm] but in the end, the Epics did the job they were designed to. Hope indeed. It's not a broken system. People are happy with the Epics, me included, with criticisms. >Coliseum ContentColiseum was old 3 days into its introduction. Several people didn't even bother fully doing timed or protection trials, which were the only two innovations to the game. One required field awareness and the other altered ringsets. Survival is more like the rest of the game, so yeah, it was popular. It's a shame that it ended how it did. But it was obvious it was coming. The place wasn't rewarding players and thus, not being advertised to new players. Adding a reward to being there is a most for its continued longevity. If there's always someone shouting there for coliseum runs, then there will be new players deciding to play it. And maybe some crew finally getting past the three big dog wave. So... I didn't list it, but the place ought to have a better gold reward as well. Gold is the ultimate inhibitor of "Been there, done that". >X-masOh my. How does it move? What about Gnome Santa and his flamindeers? I still stand that we need a recycle at the very least. I still don't have my coal spirit, and didn't even try buying loot all throughout last year because I had been sure events would be recycled. I'm two years late, dang it! >PVPI know how big of a step this is. That's what the ninja is for. I started getting out of ideas about this point. >Unsuppressed CLI should have stated it this way. Unsuppressed CL feels more to reason than highest possible, and is far easier to implement. Although, among "smart" players, the highest possible is more useful, as those are players that approach instance entrances with rings unequipped. The badge idea has been discussed a few times recently, and yeah, I would feel the same as well. In the end, this isn't an important feature. >Plot integration of DMSJK said what? OH COME ON! We figure out that Ghi does this and that. And then Kin, who is some magical medium capable of seeing ghi flows, besides being a ninja, happens to be in the closest region to the Dead Man's Pass! There's more than enough room to say "there's a disturbance in the force we should investigate sometime" here. Even if it's not for everyone yet, it still is a quest about something trying to freaking STAB the whole world because explosions are getting old! It's a major event, as well as being the next step in our character progression. There's room for adding this in many ways and it seems relevant plot-wise. I'm getting swarf on the line. I think he's the fiction loving one and the writer of most extensive dialog. >Easy Crewing >Lol fishThis is also a major update. The billboard. I think you meant an advancement of the "Recrewt" Pane there. But anyways, yeah, being able to post that you're looking to make/join a crew would help the game in many levels, it is something that should be at least considered. The safe areas actually seem like a step back. it'd reduce shouting, but the drawback would be actually getting HARDER recrewting, as several people join instances from hearing those shout advertisements. I think that the fishing community is far more deserving of getting aquarium fishes off the exchange before we are. But are you really picturing me denying a way to craft mini-monsters? Of course not. I even wondered if we could make Gaia Housing items on this whole Site Integration deal. Do note that a lot of the monsters are avaiable in the gold shop now. Just making sure you were aware.
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Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:33 am
Red Kutai All of our loot should be used in Recipes. I'm not sure why Mini-Event loot was removed, but if there's an opportunity to make more items, I'd suggest they keep at it.
Avoid Orb-like build up. "Shadow" loot, lawlz o3o
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Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:09 pm
DrQuint >Rage grant/Rage IndicatorI had to do something in a hurry for this one in the thread. People were giving it votes that I likely think wasn't intended for it to have. When I mentioned a glitch, I didn't mean the visual indication saying the buff was RR1 when it was RR4, I meant the glitch that makes some buffs give you rage when used while already being buffed. The fix would be to make all work like that, or none. I even put it alongside the trick with ring swapping, because those two are the glitches people use to build up rage "unfairly" when nothing is happening. Regardless, there is support for crew panel changes, so I guess I'll assume the former bug. I love the borders idea for borders btw. If only one could be done, I'd still prefer a better indication of a buff timer running out though. I understood what you meant, yes; but I realise that people rarely consider beneficial effects "glitches". That is, they don't consider them at all - they make use of them, and don't even realise that the effects are nonsensical until someone presents the fact to them. whee
I agree that a buff timer of some sort would be nice. I personally think that having them flash when their duration gets low (around a minute, for instance), and flashing gradually more rapidly as the duration gets lower to indicate urgency. I've heard a view similar to ring cooldown effects proposed, but that simply seems too visually distracting, to me. Adding borders of various colours on top of that would likely make at least one poor frog's head explode. redface
Quote: >Rare SpawnsBefore considering the loot, I must do a question: Why? Why not increase it anyways? For something that gives the game a little extra flavor, with no actual reward, these things seem to have a major cause of 2k10.11 Markpersonus Vacationitis. Even the Ring Box, the one that does give a reward and should be kept rare, seems to spawn once for every time a player takes to train 5 mules past Bassken level - or when the server is cycled ninja . But I digress. I'm not on a crusade to increase their rate. Pretty low priority. It's a matter of balance, to say the least - rarity is what makes a rare spawn a rare spawn, so making them more common appears to detract from that. However, I would agree that even "rare" spawns should be common enough to be seen by players - the fact that you can finish the game without ever knowing they even exist seems like they've gone completely overboard.
I'd have rare spawns get progressively rarer as the game goes on, personally - with the Village Greens rare spawn (a gnome, if i recall correctly) spawning often enough that every player is liable to see him, at least once. Then, as players continue through the areas, the spawns grow gradually rarer, requiring that players try harder in order to actually 'complete' the task of seeing them all. This would necessitate, though, that rare spawns are made important early on, either through a quest or some other element indicating that they exist, and are special.
I know that rare spawns are (partially) designed to get players back into previous areas, though, so adding a second rare rare spawn in early areas would make sense, too. After having completed the quest (or what-have-you) of finding all of the basic rare spawns, hint that there may be more, rarer ones yet to find. Then let the players do the exploring for themselves. I think the predictable nature of one rare spawn per area is important to get players attached to the idea, but once they're invested and find they enjoy the 'hunt', I'm fine with letting them search out more 'advanced' rares.
Quote: >Buffing monstersDMS does have CC. Not debuffs though. I wonder if the devs considered it and didn't like it or not. Slow experiments does seem the best way to balance the game. What bothered me the most about some of the changes to gameplay was how DRASTIC the change was. The wort offender wasn't even gameplay, it was GOLD. We went, in a week, from a payout of 1k at best, with gold drops once every 3 monsters to a payout of over 20k with drops every single time. Even orbs weren't so staggering at first (until everyone noticed a pattern with swarming mobs and that's how AoE was born) Not saying I'm not content with the current rings or monsters. They actually did a nice job back when they did some major overhaul of uses and ringsets. Or when they made monsters heal each other. There are still lingering issues of course. I'm reasonably content with the objective balance of the system - I'm not so content with the gameplay it produces. Gameplay has, up to this point, been very focused on making things "easier" or "harder", without considering what makes players enjoy gameplay. Good gameplay gives players decisions to make, and rewards for making those decisions well. Currently, even our most 'advanced' gameplay is simply "hard", without really encouraging or rewarding good decision-making. I suppose it does reward choosing the 'right' rings, but that's another issue entirely. whee
Quote: >Block BuddiesI'm actually not fully supportive of this. One of the most important traits of vanity items is the inherent "show off" status they allow. Making us able to block them is something in detriment of the very point they have. BUT, the gameplay takes priority, and the animations are themselves getting in the way of gameplay. Not everyone is adblock savvy, so there you have it. One more to the options box. I understand your hesitance to remove their only reason for existing, but I honestly think that the fact that they're constantly present is currently serving as much as a detriment as anything. I can't take my Buddies into SS or DMS because other players will complain - as much as I want to bring them, the fact that those players have to deal with them presents me from doing so easily. If I were able to enjoy my own buddies without the feeling of hindering others (on runs, at dev meets, etc.) it would significantly increase their usability.
Quote: >Clan ChatActually Red, even if clans had a lot of other options available to them, this would still stand out to be THE most important feature available to clans, and you ought to know it if you play any MMO ever. I've played plenty - I just tend not to get involved with other players while doing so. razz
That being the case, I tend to be wary about giving extra features to Clans. I've seen distinctly how overbearing Clan-like features can be in other games, and how frustrating it can be when gameplay evolves to the point that that becomes a standard requirement. However, communication is always the bare minimum of such features, and I don't see any way that such an inclusion could be considered overbearing; and really, Clans deserve something. sweatdrop
Quote: We need those. I love the idea sooooo much. The power up crafts. I picture them the same way, as being empty flasks, and we go out to get ingredients. And syko nailed down the specifics I felt appropriate for them, such as the base being a cheap CS item, common potions still being weaker than the powerup equivalents, and the most powerful being boss killers you have to take a leap and, regardless of the work, spend some noticeable gold on. His requirements still seem a tad bit high for the latter though. Particularly if they want to start treating Powerups as a standard part of gameplay, as DMS appears to - that would necessitate moving them from "extras you can get for Cash" to "abilities you can get that aren't Rings". Currently, powerup use strikes a lot of players as 'cheap' - if you want to make it standard, it needs to feel more like a natural part of the game.
Quote: >X-masOh my. How does it move? What about Gnome Santa and his flamindeers? I still stand that we need a recycle at the very least. I still don't have my coal spirit, and didn't even try buying loot all throughout last year because I had been sure events would be recycled. I'm two years late, dang it! It... Wobbles, I suppose. He's an awfully fragile little guy. sweatdrop
I still support Sagnta as a concept fully, though; I think the red-nosed flamingo, the lawnmower-sleigh and other evolutions could probably wait to be added as evolutions in a re-hash (you get more mileage from your good ideas, that way), but the basic premise of a Giftbox-chucking Lawn Gnome Santa Claus is just too good (and too zOMG!) to pass up. I really need to see about talking [ JK ] into that, if I can. sweatdrop
Yes, I think that it's only rarely that we should do less than a recycled event - any feature you remove will always be the one feature some players were looking forward to. While it's natural that some things will be excluded over time (to avoid unreasonably convoluted masses of event features), it's best to retain as much as possible, to make players feel comfortable (and nostalgic) with the event experience.
Quote: >Unsuppressed CLI should have stated it this way. Unsuppressed CL feels more to reason than highest possible, and is far easier to implement. Although, among "smart" players, the highest possible is more useful, as those are players that approach instance entrances with rings unequipped. The badge idea has been discussed a few times recently, and yeah, I would feel the same as well. In the end, this isn't an important feature. Not a necessary feature, no, but an underrepresented suggestion. I think the idea of tracking a players highest achieved CL could do a lot - apart from badges and the increased accuracy of Character Info, it also helps to encourage players to switch rings. Currently, when you've achieved a high CL, you're discouraged from switching because you become visibly weaker; the extra assurance of 'remembering' what players have done previously makes experimenting considerably more comfortable.
Quote: >Easy Crewing >Lol fishThis is also a major update. The billboard. I think you meant an advancement of the "Recrewt" Pane there. But anyways, yeah, being able to post that you're looking to make/join a crew would help the game in many levels, it is something that should be at least considered. The safe areas actually seem like a step back. it'd reduce shouting, but the drawback would be actually getting HARDER recrewting, as several people join instances from hearing those shout advertisements. I think that the fishing community is far more deserving of getting aquarium fishes off the exchange before we are. But are you really picturing me denying a way to craft mini-monsters? Of course not. I even wondered if we could make Gaia Housing items on this whole Site Integration deal. Do note that a lot of the monsters are avaiable in the gold shop now. Just making sure you were aware. I did mean "Recrewt Pane", yes. redface
I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of CL 10.0s on Gold Beach, and the vast majority of CL 10+s in Bill's Ranch are there explicitly to play Shallow Seas and DMS, respectively. The corner cases where such a player was doing something completely unrelated, and was so drawn by the Shouts of "SEB 2 SPOTS!" that they gave up on it and went running to join said crew are - I'm quite confident - nearly irrelevant. Giving players a place to congregate where such shouting isn't necessary, and the desire for Crewing is implicit (unlike happening to be at Gold Beach or Bill's Ranch), makes a lot of sense to me.
And yes, I checked before I posted, to see the prices on the Mini Monsters - I recall hearing that they were now Gold Shop items, but I'd forgotten. Still, I think having the Recipes and the necessary components already lying around would be a much bigger incentive to fill my tank than the fact that they're available for gold - gold has so many uses, while a Recipe has just one. If you want to encourage zOMG! players to do something, common, easy-to-craft Recipes are a heck of a way to do it... razz
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Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:42 pm
Red Kutai I agree that a buff timer of some sort would be nice. I personally think that having them flash when their duration gets low (around a minute, for instance), and flashing gradually more rapidly as the duration gets lower to indicate urgency. I've heard a view similar to ring cooldown effects proposed, but that simply seems too visually distracting, to me. Adding borders of various colours on top of that would likely make at least one poor frog's head explode. redface
Since I had so much fun with mockups the last time I tried them - and since I have a fascination with GUIs, regardless - I tried some more here:

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The first column is an attempt at indicating Rage Rank through colour saturation - buffs are black-and-white at RR1, and full colour at RR4. Unfortunately, it's very difficult to distinguish between them in practice, and with RR3 not noticeably different from RR4 in many cases, and RR2 occasionally barely distinguishable from RR3. This is a problem particularly with near-monochrome buff icons, like Teflon Spray. However, it's worth noting that RR1 buffs are very obvious, and easily distinguishable from RR4 ones (they're the only ones that stand out, here).

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The second column is an attempt to illustrate the (no border)-green-yellow-red that we mentioned already. In this one, it's very easy to distinguish each Rage Rank from each other, so it serves its purposes well. Apart from that though, I personally find it looks hideous, and the overwhelming red colouration does not serve - to me - to imply "buffs are good". The red in the conning system was meant to indicate danger, and does not fit well here. whee Moreover, though, I feel the overuse of colour makes it difficult to take in information quickly.

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The last column is something of a combination of the two, using gradually lighter borders to indicate Rage Ranks. Using white borders instead of red on RR4 buffs leads to a much more coherent appearance with many fully-raged buffs, and it is still very easy to pick out which buffs are not RR4 at a glance. The biggest problem here is that it's difficult to distinguish RR2 from RR3 (except perhaps if they're next to each other), though I find that that is rarely a relevant issue. In cases where RR2 and RR3 buffs were abundant, however, the chances of them being adjacent (where the difference is more obvious) would be much higher... 3nodding

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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:24 am
Red Kutai Red Kutai Since I had so much fun with mockups the last time I tried them - and since I have a fascination with GUIs, regardless - I tried some more here:
That makes so much sense. :O Let's face it, It's either RR1 or RR4 when it comes to buffs. RR3 buffs are always seen as accidents. razz So it's probably best to have a white border when a buff has been fully raged and black when it is any other level. And the suggestion to have flashing indicators to mark an expiring buff is also splendid. smile But srsly, Great work with the pics. biggrin
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Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:27 am
Silk Kanishk Red Kutai Since I had so much fun with mockups the last time I tried them - and since I have a fascination with GUIs, regardless - I tried some more here:
That makes so much sense. :O Let's face it, It's either RR1 or RR4 when it comes to buffs. RR3 buffs are always seen as accidents. razz So it's probably best to have a white border when a buff has been fully raged and black when it is any other level. And the suggestion to have flashing indicators to mark an expiring buff is also splendid. smile But srsly, Great work with the pics. biggrin The images weren't really much trouble - I had old screenshots lying around already, and making a few variously coloured boxes is hardly an accomplishment. razz
The trouble with only distinguishing between RR4 among everything else is that it simply accepts one of the shortcomings of the Rage system; that is, that RR2 and RR3 are irrelevant. The only rings I can think of that regularly utilise RR2 are those that gain AoE at that Rage Rank (namely Hot Foot and Wish), and due to buffs' set-and-forget nature (thanks both to their long durations and crewwide targeting scheme), they are exactly as you've posed - either RR1, or RR4. I'd like to see that shortcoming fixed however, so systems that don't sufficiently indicate the differences between each Rage Rank wouldn't be something I'd particularly support. But I suppose something's better than nothing. whee
Flashing indicators are hardly a unique concept, but they're one that I think works particularly well. How often they blink and how 'urgently' are something we'd have to adjusted, but the images were just proof-of-concept. The thing I like most about that system is that it isn't obvious when it's not relevant (unlike the cooldown-like proposal), reducing the amount of irrelevant information you have to sift through to read what you're looking for. I'd also suggest adding an explicit indication of how much time is remaining to the buff icon tooltip (which currently just shows the icon and Rage Rank), for the sake of general clarity...
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Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:41 am
Red Kutai
The trouble with only distinguishing between RR4 among everything else is that it simply accepts one of the shortcomings of the Rage system; that is, that RR2 and RR3 are irrelevant. The only rings I can think of that regularly utilise RR2 are those that gain AoE at that Rage Rank (namely Hot Foot and Wish), and due to buffs' set-and-forget nature (thanks both to their long durations and crewwide targeting scheme), they are exactly as you've posed - either RR1, or RR4. I'd like to see that shortcoming fixed however, so systems that don't sufficiently indicate the differences between each Rage Rank wouldn't be something I'd particularly support. But I suppose something's better than nothing. whee
I was thinking more about this and that's when I was inspired by a system in Backyard Monsters where flinging goo on your monsters buffs them up with inverse proportions of speed and armor depending on the amount of goo chosen to fling. (Duration increases with amount of goo flung). So I thought the same could be applied to zOMG! For example, the Divinity ring. As you can see, I wanted to have rr1 of all buffs geared towards gold farmers while rr4 suited towards tougher situations. This system would make rr2 and rr3 useful since they provide both benefits to a reasonable level which would be ideal for general playing. Would also help provide balance by giving gold farmers a tougher time in earning that gold. 3nodding The drawbacks of course are each ring would become nerfed as you can never have the best of both effects, it would require proper defining of both effects for each ring(perhaps even adding effects in some cases), and finally the complexity of explaining such a new system. :XP
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Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:46 pm
I think it would be good to have polls in z!F to find out a broader opinion of some things. Just be careful how you word it I guess and try a few at a time. I think what coliseum is lacking is incentive to play the area. Shallow Seas and papa saw are there for gold purposes, dms is around for shadow orbs and recipe, and coliseum is like overshadowed. I did suggest to [ JK ] to have pvp in coliseum because it would make that area useful, but seems like it will be awhile for any pvp to happen. Clan chat would be nice if any events are being done in the clan or for communication purposes. World chat would annoy me because it is bad enough in shout with the amount of spam that occurs. I wouldn't want to hear even more spam from other areas in the game. Lots of great ideas in this thread and sorry I'm only able to comment on a few for now.
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Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:39 pm
Silk Kanishk I was thinking more about this and that's when I was inspired by a system in Backyard Monsters where flinging goo on your monsters buffs them up with inverse proportions of speed and armor depending on the amount of goo chosen to fling. (Duration increases with amount of goo flung). So I thought the same could be applied to zOMG! For example, the Divinity ring. As you can see, I wanted to have rr1 of all buffs geared towards gold farmers while rr4 suited towards tougher situations. This system would make rr2 and rr3 useful since they provide both benefits to a reasonable level which would be ideal for general playing. Would also help provide balance by giving gold farmers a tougher time in earning that gold. 3nodding The drawbacks of course are each ring would become nerfed as you can never have the best of both effects, it would require proper defining of both effects for each ring(perhaps even adding effects in some cases), and finally the complexity of explaining such a new system. :XP Unless the game has changed significantly since the last I played - which has admittedly been a while - I'm afraid you're misunderstanding the function of Putty Rage in Backyard Monsters. I believe the manner in which they explain the armor is a little confusing (they express it as a percentage, in terms of damage received, not prevented), but I can assure you that speed and armor rating both increase as you invest more Putty. Of course, that correction is mostly irrelevant to the idea you're posing, I suppose. sweatdrop
At least, it would be irrelevant if I didn't agree with their version, more than yours. The notion of paying more to receive less - of any part - is extremely unappealing to players, and creates a generally uncomfortable tension. The simple fact is that Rage is an investment - investing Rage should make a ring do its job better, exclusively. The idea of having effects actually dissipate with Rage implies vastly different roles at RR1 and RR4, which is harmful to the identity of the ring overall.
I think the bigger issue here is that, for the vast majority of rings, RR4 is the most efficient level of Rage use. As Raged effects are already time- and Stamina-efficient, the idea of making them progressively less Rage-efficient actually seems perfectly fair to me. Whether we would choose to do this by making Rage more expensive (something I'd personally like to consider, along with making the game more Rage-centric) or by making higher-Raged effects less efficient (though, remember, they're still extremely time- and Stamina-efficient) is debatable, but the decision between Rage-efficiency (in low-Rage attacks) and Stamina-efficiency (in higher-Rage attacks) seems like a more comfortable form of tension than choosing between two desirable effects... sweatdrop
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Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:05 am
Red Kutai Unless the game has changed significantly since the last I played - which has admittedly been a while - I'm afraid you're misunderstanding the function of Putty Rage in Backyard Monsters. I believe the manner in which they explain the armor is a little confusing (they express it as a percentage, in terms of damage received, not prevented), but I can assure you that speed and armor rating both increase as you invest more Putty. Of course, that correction is mostly irrelevant to the idea you're posing, I suppose. sweatdrop
At least, it would be irrelevant if I didn't agree with their version, more than yours. The notion of paying more to receive less - of any part - is extremely unappealing to players, and creates a generally uncomfortable tension. The simple fact is that Rage is an investment - investing Rage should make a ring do its job better, exclusively. The idea of having effects actually dissipate with Rage implies vastly different roles at RR1 and RR4, which is harmful to the identity of the ring overall.
I think the bigger issue here is that, for the vast majority of rings, RR4 is the most efficient level of Rage use. As Raged effects are already time- and Stamina-efficient, the idea of making them progressively less Rage-efficient actually seems perfectly fair to me. Whether we would choose to do this by making Rage more expensive (something I'd personally like to consider, along with making the game more Rage-centric) or by making higher-Raged effects less efficient (though, remember, they're still extremely time- and Stamina-efficient) is debatable, but the decision between Rage-efficiency (in low-Rage attacks) and Stamina-efficiency (in higher-Rage attacks) seems like a more comfortable form of tension than choosing between two desirable effects... sweatdrop
Lol! I went and checked the BYM wikia page and you were right. The armor rating is more about dmg received rather than armor bonus itself. sweatdrop How misleadingAnd I see your point and that is a pretty good idea. If gaining rage is made harder, it might make people consider opting for the lesser rage buffs (either that or several more minutes spent agonizingly swapping rings) gonk The latter option sounds way better! 3nodding Thanks for your suggestions. Glad I could at least prod them out of you instead of just leaving this discussion unfinished.
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Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:34 am
Silk Kanishk Red Kutai Unless the game has changed significantly since the last I played - which has admittedly been a while - I'm afraid you're misunderstanding the function of Putty Rage in Backyard Monsters. I believe the manner in which they explain the armor is a little confusing (they express it as a percentage, in terms of damage received, not prevented), but I can assure you that speed and armor rating both increase as you invest more Putty. Of course, that correction is mostly irrelevant to the idea you're posing, I suppose. sweatdrop
At least, it would be irrelevant if I didn't agree with their version, more than yours. The notion of paying more to receive less - of any part - is extremely unappealing to players, and creates a generally uncomfortable tension. The simple fact is that Rage is an investment - investing Rage should make a ring do its job better, exclusively. The idea of having effects actually dissipate with Rage implies vastly different roles at RR1 and RR4, which is harmful to the identity of the ring overall.
I think the bigger issue here is that, for the vast majority of rings, RR4 is the most efficient level of Rage use. As Raged effects are already time- and Stamina-efficient, the idea of making them progressively less Rage-efficient actually seems perfectly fair to me. Whether we would choose to do this by making Rage more expensive (something I'd personally like to consider, along with making the game more Rage-centric) or by making higher-Raged effects less efficient (though, remember, they're still extremely time- and Stamina-efficient) is debatable, but the decision between Rage-efficiency (in low-Rage attacks) and Stamina-efficiency (in higher-Rage attacks) seems like a more comfortable form of tension than choosing between two desirable effects... sweatdrop
Lol! I went and checked the BYM wikia page and you were right. The armor rating is more about dmg received rather than armor bonus itself. sweatdrop How misleadingAnd I see your point and that is a pretty good idea. If gaining rage is made harder, it might make people consider opting for the lesser rage buffs (either that or several more minutes spent agonizingly swapping rings) gonk The latter option sounds way better! 3nodding Thanks for your suggestions. Glad I could at least prod them out of you instead of just leaving this discussion unfinished. I've been meaning to make a post in z!magine extolling the virtues of Rage-centric gameplay (because Stamina-centric gameplay is, quite simply, lame) for some time now, but I haven't gotten around to it. I'll get around to it eventually, I'm sure, as I'd still like to explain the reasoning in a bit more detail - but these are the basic changes that would facilitate the paradigm shift, yes.
And ring-swapping for Rage can, and should, be made impossible. It shouldn't be a difficult fix to make, as it simply involves modifying the Health-updating function to consider a player's G'hi at the time of the swap, and factoring it into the new Health amount. Or, even more simply (and potentially more effectively), tracking the percentage Health at the time of the swap, and reapplying that percentage regardless of the new maximum Health value. Overall, it's a simple oversight that would be pretty easy to remedy, if anyone were trying... sweatdrop
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Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:38 pm
Ugh... paying for something when gaining something is fine. Doing so with Rage is a huge nono. I'd rather have those "equippable and limited" Ghi boosts that alter your stats to your liking than place that on the shoulders of Rage.
I know of an example of stuff like this actually where you "charge" something for long only to pay an extra sacrifice. Eh, I got nothing to do and I feel like posting something unrelated just to say I'm looking here. Flak and Nell from Advance Wars 2. Both have luck damage which makes units more powerful, and both have a Super CO Power that boosts their luck damage enormously. Super CO Powers take a long time to charge and be used, and are often game deciding factors. Nell is a secret character and considered overpowered and does her Super (Lady Luck) masterfully, her units can get from +0 to +100% damage. Considering the way luck boosts work, this can mean that an infantry shooting on a neotank on a road can sometimes wipe it out. Flak (Barbaric Blow), instead of just getting a luck boost like Nell does... He gets a luck boost by increasing the "dispersion range". That means that sure, you can now do up to +70% damge if you're lucky, but it also means that he might instead do -30% damage instead. The average damage is +20%, which is an incredibly shitty boost for a Super CO Power alone, but we're also talking on not even being able to rely on the numbers we see as "expected damage". That number might end up lower, so the enemy can counterattack and the whole Power is being used on a suicide rush. I easily picture a idiot squad of 5 tanks you have shooting at a squad of 3 and only hitting 1 instead of all of them with Flak's power because "everyone was shooting everywhere and we're not sure what happened, but we were trying hard Boss!". They're essentially the same, but the fact some of that "accurarcy" was sacrificed along with the time wasted charging the power on Flak's case, makes him pretty much the worst CO in the entire game.
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