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Luamervara

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:33 am


My brain nicpicks way too much and I noticed it in another thread about the family members and the timeline alteration.

To start with: I'm A-Ok about Non canon. That's perfectly fine with me. (besides, gives my characters the chance to hit on Mamoru<3)


But some things make me wonder exactly how it happened.

Since A: Chibiusa going back in time erased her and her timeline in this universe.

B: How did Usagi get tangled up with Diamond(Demand/Whitehaireddude) if the future's been changed because of what Chibiusa (and Pluto) did which means there wouldn't be a Black Moon Clan in the first place because they appeared as a reaction of Crystal Tokyo being there.

(Ow my head. it hurts).

C : How, if at all, would any of them remember this action?


My Proposal-

1. is that Pluto is set up by another force, thus tricking her into thinking that she's doing the right thing in breaking up Mamoru and Usagi in order to save their world/corner of the universe. By sending Chibiusa as a proxy, she's able to do this and still remain as she was.

This erases Chibiusa's timeline which gets replaced with the one we have. Which leads to the originals slowly losing memories of their adventures in the future (which Also means no one remembers Pluto either.).

Pluto inadvertently causes the already strained relationship of Mamoru and Usagi to break because she realizes her mistake and had been trying to help them but ends up falling for Mamoru instead. Usagi ends up finding the 'human' Diamond(demand/Diamande?) while broken hearted and they get a relationship there.

Luna/Artemis figures out That Diamande(Diamond/Demand goodgods man get a normal name!) is a descendent/reincarnated royal from the forbidden planet called Nemesis.

*Cue Drama, issues, fighting, loves ect.* All this results in our thing.


2. First half the same, but the difference is that Wiseman is involved with the 'normal' lives the senshi are leading. at this point no one remembers their trip to the future other then a strange deja vu.

Wiseman comes in, finds the descendents of Nemesis and basically brainwashes them/fools them into believing that if they wipe out the White Moon Clan, that they would get all the power they need to do whatever(insertevilgoal.)

Saphir doesn't entirely buy into that-but has his own reasons for it. Thus is the wild cannon of this segment. He basically follows his brother's lead but he doesn't like his brother obsessing over this 'Sailor Moon' chick.

In the end, Diamond/Whateverhisnameisathispointmygodsgetanewone has fallen hopelessly for Usagi. Mamoru's starting to like Setsuna (who's come to survey the team undercover as a student at a University near Mamoru's) and Usagi has taken a liking to Diamond (who's probably closer to her age I suppose.) so both Usagi and Mamoru talk it out and break up amicably enough to be friends still.

Wiseman gets his butt handed to him by the senshi. Life goes on until Usagi gets old enough to become an 'adult' on Earth and takes up residents on the Moon with Diamonde and his group.

And we somehow get to where we are now.


3. I have no idea what else to put up to you here. o-o;;
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:39 pm


Okay, I'm not sure if any of my input could be very useful, so I'm going to bring this thread to the attention of someone who could give some excellent input:

Ranluka

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Luamervara

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:12 pm


Hope so, I kinda would like to resolve that mostly because it makes a big difference in characters' lives.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:43 pm


I was actually thinking about this I am glad someone brought it up.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:44 pm


its very simple.... none of us know ninja


Honestly I wasn't aware they traveled back in time. I'll do some research over the weekend. Somehow the paradox would have to resolve or the universe would be destroyed. Cause if they don't come back, then rini doesn't break up mamaru and usagi.. which means Crystal tokyo is there... which means they go back...

So either the whole think plays out instead like in cannon, or there's an alternate reason for them to come back.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:55 am


OK

After reviewing the interweb and some thought....

This kinda scrubs the entire guild concept. You can't have the dark moon fair succeed in any measure, because if they did.. they'd never have gone back.

Assuming a single timeline universe, If they kill Sailor Moon, no crystal Tokyo. If they kill Edymon, No crystal tokyo. If they successfully steal the silver crystal, sudduce Usagi or alot of other things, no crystal tokyo.

BUT

If however we adopt a multi-timeline model, where whenever time travel happens, a duplicate universe (including the travelers) is spawned, we create a loophole.

Under this model, The original universe refuses any signifigant changes or paradoxes. The travelers are doomed to have their attempts at time changing thwarted by seemingly random events as the universe protects the original timeline. This is because if they succeed in changing the original timeline, a paradox would occur and the time travel would never have occurred.
The original time traveler, who attempts to kill his great grandfather would fail.
Any changes in the timeline would be reflected in the memories of all those involved like you would think it would.

In the alternate universe however, since changes wouldn't change the original universe, those changes wouldn't prevent the time travel. This allows time travelers to actually change the past. In these universes, we'd observe all sorts of the apparent paradoxes and bad time travel senerios we see in TV and movies. Unlike the originals, this version of the travelers would remember the future as they left it, instead of how it is. And anyone attempting to kill their grandfather might succeed, but would find themselves still existing.


Now here's the real brain bender.. every copy would likely be both a copy and an original. This is because copies would be made every time time travel occurs. Wither or not travelers are able to make changes would depend solely if they are in the timeline that initiated the time travel OR if they are in the timeline that was created because of the time travel. Additionally, they'd have no way to know which timeline they are in, since both universes would identical until the moment they traveled to.

phew back to math hw

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Luamervara

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:55 am


I get the Infinite Earth Theory. (It's a popular model in Comics especially when dealing with DC Comics and Marvel. Which is were some of this originally spawned.)

What I'm simply trying to discern is whether or not, since there's infinite Earths, would the Main cast remember it. Or if there's another reason for the change up and how that would effect our characters in our storytelling because some could be old enough to remember this conflict.

Main Storyline explanation with Chibiusa was that her going back in time was a cause for the Outer senshi to awaken- Basically Super and onward is the direct result of her tampering with time.


Just trying to figure out the Reason and why. The Black moon went back in time because of Chibiusa.

If Chibiusa no longer exists, then they wouldn't have gone back period. Which leads back to that "If Mamoru and Usagi don't get together, there's no Crystal Tokyo, if there's no Crystal Tokyo there's no Black Moon Clan. If there's no Black Moon Clan then there's no reason to invovle time travel."
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:28 am


Okay so Heres an idea that some what goes along with the Infinite Earth therory.

During Time travel there is always the chance that one will land in an alternate dementiosn of the one you started in. The Black Moon Clan came from the Origenal Time line, but in there travels they landed in this alternite time lince acusing the changes we now play in. Scince Sailor Moon and Tuxedo mask never got together, Rene was never born and the Black Moon Clan of that Time line was never made. However,being from the origenal time line in which this already happened they are uneffected.

Thus all the changes that occur in the history we play with are entierly plausable.
Another thing to look at that might be fun is how far away they got from the main time line. The further away the less affect the main time line would have on the line they landed on.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:14 am


Well, maybe not from the original timeline.

Since we're going with the Infinite Earth Theory it could be that the BMC that we have isn't from the original timeline but the one next over that ended up doing that if we go with that.

So it doesn't effect the original Timeline at all because it's an offshoot of it of "things that weren't done"

...This really reminds me of an anime I can't remember the name of but they explained it well enough.

Everything we do, there's another road that's not taken that's being done in another AU world similar from us. Everything that one does shoots off to more divergences.


Until you get a completley different world.

(geh, too many propbablities and not enough concrete.)

ANYWAY

I'm just proposing a simple story-fix. Tis all.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:49 pm


xp This just confuses me >.<

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Saren Tyndall

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:05 pm


Sailor Onyx
xp This just confuses me >.<


If you'd like it simplified, go watch the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "Parallels." It wraps up what they're talking about fairly nicely. Also, Sisko explains it in the first episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, when he's explaining the concept of linear time to the wormhole aliens.

It makes sense to me, though. It honestly does.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:44 pm


I'm not sure if people are understanding the model I'm suggesting correctly. Let me clarify a few points.

1. There is no "chance" involved. When you time travel, the original you stays in your current universe and a copy of you lands in the newly created universe. You have no way to know if you are the clone, or the original.


2. The chibiusa that came to our universe would have to be a copy. Otherwise she would not have changed the timeline since the original universe would not have changed. Oddly enough, she can still exist here as Dark lady or her original self. She would however find the future she knew gone, replaced by her own.

3. The black-moon clan in our universe would also be a copy. Otherwise Diamond would not have been able to change the the past.

4. This is not infinite earth theory. Infinite earth theory says there is reality for possibility, aka infinite earths. This would be a finite number of earths since time travel is required for a split. (which is theoretically rare >.>) Additionally, infinate theory wouldn't allow for time travel anymore then single universe theory. (WEEE feedback loops)

Essentially for our purposes we're looking at:

User Image

(there's more lines thanks to rini, but lets not hurt our brains further!)

Universe A: Is Cannon. Black Moon Clan must fail, little Rini is unable to affect the timeline. The future will be as both groups remember it.

Universe B: Is spawned when the black moon clan goes back in time. The black moon clan may affect change, littlerini may not. The Black Moon Clan will remember the future as it exists in Universe A. Littlerini will remember the future as it is in Universe B.

Universe C: Is spawned when Little Rini goes back in time. She can change the timeline, the black moon clan cannot. Little Rini will remember events as they happen in Universe A. If she somehow prevents Crystal Tokyo, Universe D never happens. If she does NOT prevent Crystal Tokyo and the Black Moon Clan come back, they cannot affect change and will remember the future as it is in Universe C.

Universe D: Is spawned when the Black Moon clan in Universe C go back in Time. Both little rini and the black moon clan can change the future. Little Rini will remember future events as they happened in universe A. The Black Moon Clan will remember future events as they happen in universe C.



We would be in either Universe B or D. There is little difference between the two, just semantics. If we pick D, then the changes are because of Littlerini AND the Black Moon Clans interference in the time line. If we pick B, then its JUST the Black Moon Clans fault. Since they interact.. it'd be hard to pinpoint who made the change.

It should also be noted that time travel FOWARD would no effect on timelines. As long as you continue to move foward through time, you can't mess things up!

Also: Littlerini's existence is not mandatory for them to come back, just crystal Tokyo, which just requires mamaru +usagi.

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Saren Tyndall

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:00 am


Sailor Charoite
I'm not sure if people are understanding the model I'm suggesting correctly. Let me clarify a few points.

1. There is no "chance" involved. When you time travel, the original you stays in your current universe and a copy of you lands in the newly created universe. You have no way to know if you are the clone, or the original.


2. The chibiusa that came to our universe would have to be a copy. Otherwise she would not have changed the timeline since the original universe would not have changed. Oddly enough, she can still exist here as Dark lady or her original self. She would however find the future she knew gone, replaced by her own.

3. The black-moon clan in our universe would also be a copy. Otherwise Diamond would not have been able to change the the past.

4. This is not infinite earth theory. Infinite earth theory says there is reality for possibility, aka infinite earths. This would be a finite number of earths since time travel is required for a split. (which is theoretically rare >.>)

Essentially for our purposes we're looking at:

User Image

(there's more lines thanks to rini, but lets not hurt our brains further!)

Universe A: Is Cannon. Black Moon Clan must fail, little Rini is unable to affect the timeline. The future will be as both groups remember it.

Universe B: Is spawned when the black moon clan goes back in time. The black moon clan may affect change, littlerini may not. The Black Moon Clan will remember the future as it exists in Universe A. Littlerini will remember the future as it is in Universe B.

Universe C: Is spawned when Little Rini goes back in time. She can change the timeline, the black moon clan cannot. Little Rini will remember events as they happen in Universe A. If she somehow prevents Crystal Tokyo, Universe D never happens. If she does NOT prevent Crystal Tokyo and the Black Moon Clan come back, they cannot affect change and will remember the future as it is in Universe C.

Universe D: Is spawned when the Black Moon clan in Universe C go back in Time. Both little rini and the black moon clan can change the future. Little Rini will remember future events as they happened in universe A. The Black Moon Clan will remember future events as they happen in universe C.



We would be in either Universe B or D. There is little difference between the two, just semantics. If we pick D, then the changes are because of Littlerini AND the Black Moon Clans interference in the time line. If we pick B, then its JUST the Black Moon Clans fault. Since they interact.. it'd be hard to pinpoint who made the change.

It should also be noted that time travel FOWARD would no effect on timelines. As long as you continue to move foward through time, you can't mess things up!

Also: Littlerini's existence is not mandatory for them to come back, just crystal Tokyo, which just requires mamaru +usagi.


...Being that the point of this is to get rid of Chibi-usa because people don't like her, I'm going to say we're in Universe D, where she's partly to blame as well wink

Either way, thanks for the clarification. More like Back To The Future 2.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:06 am


lol. Well under this... she'd exist in our universe. She just would never be BORN in this universe. ninja

So yall can kill her off or let her live at your leisure.

I also wanna reiterate, since you quoted before I finnished editing.

This =/= infinite universe theory. Neither infinite universe theory nor single universe theory allows time travel. (weeee feedback loops) This does.

Sailor Charoite


Saren Tyndall

Omnipresent Powerhouse

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:25 am


Whoops sweatdrop See, this is why time travel gives me a headache.
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