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 Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:37 pm
I was reading a book relating anime and manga to philosophy, and one chapter went into whether Alphonse Elric from FMA is still Alphonse Elric. So I'm curious: who thinks we have souls and who thinks we don't?
I think we do partly because of our ability to think. A fish doesn't dream of flying, but we do. We also want for something more (as a race). Most children dream big before they grow up. Our morals are also proof (they aren't always dependent on society or an individuals experience), and our ability to empathize when someone is hurt.
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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:13 pm
As far as Al from FMA is concerned, yes, he is really Al. The first time the readers/viewers see him he is in his "possessed armor" form, this is the form that the reader/viewer identifies as "Al", it is the fom of the character that we see going through all the trials and adventures with his brother and they refer to each other as brothers. To the cannon characters the "possessed armor" Al is the "real" Al; so, to the viewer the "possessed armor" Al is also the real Al.
As far as the same question goes when applied outside of anime... I'll have to cogitate on that a bit longer...
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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:13 pm
Try Ghost in the Shell. It really pushes some limits. To me, soul is proven by context- Sure, chemicals in the brain are introduced when we are happy, sad, in love, whatever- But consider the context. Something "good" releases those chemicals, and something "bad" releases other chemicals- But what determines what is "good" or "bad"? The same chemicals that are released, after the observation of the stimuli that must exist in the first place? You would, in this mechanistic situation, need to have "happy" introduced before the observation of a positive stimulus, in order to inform you that what you were observing was, in fact, positive.
Context and self awareness is what defines something as having a soul. The alchemists believe, actually, that everything natural has a soul- It's all made of a physical "matrix", or body, a thing that makes it grow or move and is found only in it's kingdom (spirit) and a soul, what makes that particular thing unique. Even stones and metals grow and evolve under the earth, over millions of years. Of course, things we process and kill no longer have spirits or souls- those have gone back to the realm of souls, which is, in a way, nowhere and everywhere. It's zero dimensional, so location isn't really relevant.
The soul is subtle, which is why we can't measure it- It would be like trying to catch air in a net. The heirarchy is like this-
Vulgar matter
Plasma
Energy/matter gap
Energy
Spirit (vitalizing agent)
Soul.
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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 8:48 pm
" Fish don't dream of flying but we do. "
That's a terrible reason to say why we have a soul.
It's obvious that humans brains are more advance and have more of an understanding then fish and therefor have 'dreams'.
A soul doesn't cause this.
I would say this even if I did believe, which I don't.
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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:59 pm
Well, I am of the impression that animals as well have souls, although there are several people who think it's silly. I have watched animals dream, and I have seen animals empathize with each other, with other people, and even other species of animals. So I don't necessarily believe that that is what makes us different and proves we have souls.
From a Christian stand-point, the soul is made up of the emotions, the will, and the spirit. Basically a trinity within ourselves. They are separate ideas, but part of the same existence. The emotions have no direction without the will or the spirit. The will has no meaning without the emotions or the spirit, and the spirit has no expression without the will or the emotions. This is a concept that can be believed in whether you believe in life after death or not, so for me it is easy to believe that a soul does exist. What I have yet to understand is exactly what happens when a soul's vessel is gone.
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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:17 pm
I don't believe in souls.
Stuff like dreaming, wanting to be bigger than ourselves, the rules we set for society, intro to psych and soc really sucks all the magic out of it.
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Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:13 am
Eltanin Sadachbia Well, I am of the impression that animals as well have souls, although there are several people who think it's silly. Where do you draw the line then? Do bugs have souls? Do plants have souls? Does a single-cell organism have a soul? Are we then made up of a huge amount of tiny souls? And what is a soul anyway? Calling emotions, empathy and morals a soul is a bit redundant, those are all produced in our brains. It's supposed to be something separate from our physical body, from our brain. And I have no reason to believe such a thing exists. Quote: Something "good" releases those chemicals, and something "bad" releases other chemicals- But what determines what is "good" or "bad"? It's just a reward system. You hurt your finger - bad. You eat something - good. Then when the brain gets more complex, and our social aspect gets more complex, the "good" and "bad" become more complex. you see your girlfriend -> love -> sex -> reproduction -> good -> you're happy you steal something -> hurts tribal relationships -> tribe has less of a chance of survival -> bad -> you feel bad I think any feeling can be deconstructed like this.
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Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:58 am
To me soul =/= spirit. They are two different things.
Your soul is the spirit and physical body comibined. Without the spirit your physical body is just a shell and is lifeless. The spirit is where your feelings, thoughts, emotions, etc. come from. You can't have a soul without a body or a spirit, it takes both together.
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Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:02 pm
Artto Eltanin Sadachbia Well, I am of the impression that animals as well have souls, although there are several people who think it's silly. Where do you draw the line then? Do bugs have souls? Do plants have souls? Does a single-cell organism have a soul? Are we then made up of a huge amount of tiny souls? And what is a soul anyway? Calling emotions, empathy and morals a soul is a bit redundant, those are all produced in our brains. It's supposed to be something separate from our physical body, from our brain. And I have no reason to believe such a thing exists. Quote: Something "good" releases those chemicals, and something "bad" releases other chemicals- But what determines what is "good" or "bad"? It's just a reward system. You hurt your finger - bad. You eat something - good. Then when the brain gets more complex, and our social aspect gets more complex, the "good" and "bad" become more complex. you see your girlfriend -> love -> sex -> reproduction -> good -> you're happy you steal something -> hurts tribal relationships -> tribe has less of a chance of survival -> bad -> you feel bad I think any feeling can be deconstructed like this. You eat something- good. unless you're a vegetarian, and it's meat. Then it's bad. I mean, true context- understanding of something, true understanding of stimuli. Our observation and understanding of context is beyond survival- Altruism towards other species, for example. And even then, the brain tells itself to release the chemicals it is already aware of? It makes more sense that the observation factor is not done by the brain itself, but by the soul- Otherwise, the brain has to tell itself that something is bad to feel bad about it in the first place- something it is already supposedly aware of to release the chemicals. It's a paradox.
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Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:12 pm
I believe every living creature on this planet has a spirit. Souls though, no. I believe animals have souls, so humans do automatically. But I do not believe broccoli has a soul. The elements are spirits, not souls.
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Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:26 pm
divineseraph Artto Eltanin Sadachbia Well, I am of the impression that animals as well have souls, although there are several people who think it's silly. Where do you draw the line then? Do bugs have souls? Do plants have souls? Does a single-cell organism have a soul? Are we then made up of a huge amount of tiny souls? And what is a soul anyway? Calling emotions, empathy and morals a soul is a bit redundant, those are all produced in our brains. It's supposed to be something separate from our physical body, from our brain. And I have no reason to believe such a thing exists. Quote: Something "good" releases those chemicals, and something "bad" releases other chemicals- But what determines what is "good" or "bad"? It's just a reward system. You hurt your finger - bad. You eat something - good. Then when the brain gets more complex, and our social aspect gets more complex, the "good" and "bad" become more complex. you see your girlfriend -> love -> sex -> reproduction -> good -> you're happy you steal something -> hurts tribal relationships -> tribe has less of a chance of survival -> bad -> you feel bad I think any feeling can be deconstructed like this. You eat something- good. unless you're a vegetarian, and it's meat. Then it's bad. I mean, true context- understanding of something, true understanding of stimuli. Our observation and understanding of context is beyond survival- Altruism towards other species, for example. And even then, the brain tells itself to release the chemicals it is already aware of? It makes more sense that the observation factor is not done by the brain itself, but by the soul- Otherwise, the brain has to tell itself that something is bad to feel bad about it in the first place- something it is already supposedly aware of to release the chemicals. It's a paradox. Nah. If you're a vegetarian and you eat meat, your stomach will be upset because it's not used to it, and you'll feel guilty because you went back on a promise to yourself. I don't see how that leads to a conclusion that we have souls. Wrong. The pleasure center, or reward center (which is separate from awareness) releases those chemicals. It's biology, not religion. Brain =/= mind. And am I hearing you say that we have souls because we're smarter than other creatures? Probably not, but "observation and understanding of context" seems a little unclear if not misleading. Mind rephrasing that? Besides, telling yourself that something you did is bad doesn't make you feel bad unless you have the accompanying emotions/display of facial expressions/hormones. Which comes from, ahem, the reward center. Which animals have, too.
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Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:04 pm
Artto Where do you draw the line then? Do bugs have souls? Do plants have souls? Does a single-cell organism have a soul? Are we then made up of a huge amount of tiny souls? And what is a soul anyway? Calling emotions, empathy and morals a soul is a bit redundant, those are all produced in our brains. It's supposed to be something separate from our physical body, from our brain. And I have no reason to believe such a thing exists. Well, since I believe the soul is made up of the Emotions, the Will, and the Spirit, then I draw the line at creatures without emotions or wills of their own- they do not have souls. Animals that have emotions and wills of their own do have souls. I believe all living things have spirits, but that is a personal belief. I don't believe trees or single celled organisms have emotions or wills. I can't say so much or bugs. Some seem to have basic emotions such as anger and fear, and they do have a will to live. I leave that up to God, and I leave them be unless they endanger me or my family. If they have a right to attack me when they feel threatened, I feel I also have that same right. A principal I apply to all living creatures and to humanity itself. I don't know why you threw empathy and morals in there. I said nothing about those. As far as empathy is concerned that is an extension of the Spirit but it does not encompass all that the spirit is. Morals, depending on how you believe, could be an extension of the will or the spirit, but they are definitely not all that the will or spirit encompasses. I believe that the body is the material vessel of the soul, and the chemical processes that occur are the translation of our spiritual wants, needs, and feelings to our physical body. I would venture to say that the process works in two directions, and that our physical needs get processed to the soul as well. As a Christian, it is pretty much a given when compared to Scripture. I believe that without the body the soul still exists, we still have wants, needs, and feelings. But that is just what I believe.
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Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:38 pm
To be symbolic, or poetic:
To me, the Soul is the painter, doing it's best to express itself, with the tools given by the environment, upon the framed area given by the genes.
I mean, that the soul is the true "self", and, as opposed to some religous definitions, it really cannot be sold, or given away.
Ghost in the shell really do push the common definition of "soul", even to the idea of:
Can Machines have souls?
Especially with what happens to the semi-childish Tachikoma Tanks in the "Stand alone Complex" series.
Then, we have the fictions where Humans enters cyberspace ..... and stays there, as AI's.
And let's not forget the deeper questions that actually still is present (if You look) in the movie "I, Robot".
The vandalized original, Isaac Asimov's short stories, with the same collective name, really goes more in-depth into it, in a way.
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Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:10 pm
Eccentric Detective divineseraph Artto Eltanin Sadachbia Well, I am of the impression that animals as well have souls, although there are several people who think it's silly. Where do you draw the line then? Do bugs have souls? Do plants have souls? Does a single-cell organism have a soul? Are we then made up of a huge amount of tiny souls? And what is a soul anyway? Calling emotions, empathy and morals a soul is a bit redundant, those are all produced in our brains. It's supposed to be something separate from our physical body, from our brain. And I have no reason to believe such a thing exists. Quote: Something "good" releases those chemicals, and something "bad" releases other chemicals- But what determines what is "good" or "bad"? It's just a reward system. You hurt your finger - bad. You eat something - good. Then when the brain gets more complex, and our social aspect gets more complex, the "good" and "bad" become more complex. you see your girlfriend -> love -> sex -> reproduction -> good -> you're happy you steal something -> hurts tribal relationships -> tribe has less of a chance of survival -> bad -> you feel bad I think any feeling can be deconstructed like this. You eat something- good. unless you're a vegetarian, and it's meat. Then it's bad. I mean, true context- understanding of something, true understanding of stimuli. Our observation and understanding of context is beyond survival- Altruism towards other species, for example. And even then, the brain tells itself to release the chemicals it is already aware of? It makes more sense that the observation factor is not done by the brain itself, but by the soul- Otherwise, the brain has to tell itself that something is bad to feel bad about it in the first place- something it is already supposedly aware of to release the chemicals. It's a paradox. Nah. If you're a vegetarian and you eat meat, your stomach will be upset because it's not used to it, and you'll feel guilty because you went back on a promise to yourself. I don't see how that leads to a conclusion that we have souls. Wrong. The pleasure center, or reward center (which is separate from awareness) releases those chemicals. It's biology, not religion. Brain =/= mind. And am I hearing you say that we have souls because we're smarter than other creatures? Probably not, but "observation and understanding of context" seems a little unclear if not misleading. Mind rephrasing that? Besides, telling yourself that something you did is bad doesn't make you feel bad unless you have the accompanying emotions/display of facial expressions/hormones. Which comes from, ahem, the reward center. Which animals have, too. It doesn't. It alludes to the fact that we have context. Yes, but how does it know how to reward or punish? Context. So what is telling it what is positive or negative? Itself? Before the negative feelings occur? The negative feelings that are caused by the chemicals that must precede it? Paradox. No. You are not. Everything has soul in it, though I'm not sure if everything has A soul. Animals have souls, as they have individual personalities and subjective observations of context. Where the line blurs is vegetables, bacterial life, primitive life and minerals.
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Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:37 am
as an Animist, i believe that everything has a Spirit, a Consciousness.... to me, the difference between Spirit and Soul seems so completely elusive, so difficult to define, that for the longest time i thought it silly to think that they are two different things.
but i also have come to realize something of an inconsistency in my own thought process, leading to a flaw in my logic.
you see, i believe that the individual Cells choose their own Evolutionary Path. they each have a sepperate Consciousness, a Spirit of their own. but obviously, we as Multicellular organisms have an all-encompassing Consciousness as well.
what i am proposing, is that we actually have two sets of Consciousness; our personal Collective Consciousness, and the individual Consciousnesses of each individual Cell that makes us up.
perhaps the Collective Consciousness is what we can call a Soul. it is the Will and Personality of a unified Mind. whereas the Spirits of each individual Cell are sepperate from that.
this would be true for all Multicellular Living things, be they Plants, Animals, or Fungae. this also would explain why despite having a Spirit, a Mineral or Rock doesn't have a Soul, or Life. because the two are sepperate. Spirit and Soul are not the same.
so yeh, that's my simple theory.
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