Welcome to Gaia! ::

Is there some kind of advice you will never listen to?

This is something I'd love to see more opinions on. A guy told me once that I should never tell a writer there was something wrong with their plot and that they should think about changing it. I'm still not sure I understand his reasoning for it, but he felt very strongly about this. My argument was that the writer is always free to discard any feedback they disagree with, but that it does no favors to anyone to keep your mouth shut if you have something constructive to say.

There is definitely the temptation to think "they just don't get what I was trying to do" but at the same time, the plot may be broken--and that's something I want to know!

How do you go about getting feedback on your writing?

This can be tough. I try to find writing partners who are at about the same place in their writing as me, and I like to trade. I learn just as much or more from critiquing other writers' work as I do from getting crits on my own writing. I think it can be a great way to start to really understand plot structure and pacing, or anything else you have trouble with. Learning to recognize it in someone else's work means you can start to apply the same ideas to your own.

I also like to have at least one or two people reading my draft who aren't writers themselves. I think it can be really valuable to have readers who aren't always getting hung up on rules and can just give you their impressions (including "I have no idea what's going on here" and "this part is boring").

How do you critique others?

When I do a critique exchange, I read someone's work while they're reading mine. But sometimes I'll go looking for something to crit. When I was writing queries, critiquing queries was great for learning about them. I still read them sometimes on another writing site just because it's so interesting to see how people sum up their plots and make them sound exciting. Sometimes I'll try to write a pitch paragraph before starting the book (or shortly after starting it) because it helps me focus on the main goals I'm working toward.

Having no writer friends, I post on FictionPress to get criticism back. I like the reviews I get and I have a Beta who edits my work. I've accumulated almost 60,000 hits so...I must be doing something right.

Is there some kind of advice you will never listen to?
No, I will always listen to advice. I know critique will get me further.

How do you go about getting feedback on your writing?
FictionPress and having an editor.

How do you critique others?
I'm a Beta for FictionPress, I edit classmates work and I read a lot of people's writing.

I have the slight advantage of having a parent that's published. Granted, she writes children's books and YA, but it's still helpful. She's usually the last person I go to, though. I'll have a few friends look at it, a few friends I can count on to take out the red pen or the red font and be like, "this doesn't work," or "I don't quite understand this." Once I've made the corrections and I think it's as ready as I can make it at that point, I send it to the mother.

She is my Mega-Beta. She will never sugar-coat, and I will always know where I stand with her.

I refuse to post online, though. It kind of kills your chances with the publishing companies because you can't prove it's yours and you didn't steal it from somewhere. Not saying posting online can't help you, on the contrary it can be a great help, but I would never post a full work.

Which reminds me: has anyone here thought about starting/been in a writer's circle/group?

Desert, I'm jealous. I would SO be a FP Beta, but the whole "You must have submitted 10k words or 5 different pieces" kinda killed me.

When I get feedback, I consider what is being said. If it's a simple matter of "I don't get it," well, I'm going to leave it. If it's a matter of "I don't get it--you do A, so I think X, but you could also be doing Y or Z," then I'm a little more inclined to reread what I've written.

I have to know what I'm doing wrong before I can fix it, you know?

Anyway, if it looks like there's a real reason for the negative feedback, then I consider changing it. I don't change everything--just what I feel could better the story. Not every criticism needs to be taken to heart.

If I'm giving feedback, everyone gets the same treatment. I try not to be mean and nasty, though. It's really a matter of using the right words. Instead of, "You should do this," I use "Why not try this?" or "I'd recommend this." People get offended when you tell them what they should or shouldn't do, but if you make it sound like a suggestion, they're more apt to consider your words of wisdom.

I doubt you've heard of her, but she writes under Barbara Turner.

Excerpts, I think, are fine online, but like I said, I'd never post the whole thing.

I've never found people quite as dedicated as I'd like, so I've never had a group, either. Just wondering if it's ever really helped someone.

Here are more examples. I use this to bump my little writing shop on here.
This was added July 20, 2010

Quotes

(("The razor sharp pain of the bones and flesh of her fingers being torn to shredded her hand following, her wrist after, The scream in agony as she tried to pulled herself out of the large machine, until it had eaten her whole arm. The flaming tears of ever nerve being pulled from her hand, her blood filled the blades as they hungers for more. It didn’t end. Not even after the feelings of her wrist was gone, it kept going, She tried to pull her head away, but it just slid her in. No one helped as she felt the blades go into her head."

{This reads with great descriptive-imagery/and reads well with that first day
of school feel--but this part really grabs you and makes you want to read more} ))
((It was a grimy story mostly for the death in the woodchopper that's always a discusting death the thought of it was pretty cool and i have to say i reallly liked it. you had a few spelling errors ther not a big deal cuz they happen alot typing so i dont care but if your planning on like sending it into like a publisher or whatever i would go back and edit it and respell everything correctly it was a great write i enjoyed it and you shuld have no problem getting better n better because ur great now))
((It was a good read but sorry to say it went no place. Description was very good ,story line was good, I'm assuming Mayela has some horrendous memory of her brother in a wood chipper. I would strongly suggest you proof read before you post. Its not the misspelled words as much as wrong words. That takes away from your work. Sorry to seem harsh but I really think you have the talent, and to give you a good review on this as is would not serve you at all.))
(("The razor sharp pain of the bones and flesh of her fingers being torn to shredded her hand following, her wrist after, The scream in agony as she tried to pulled herself out of the large machine, until it had eaten her whole arm. The flaming tears of ever nerve being pulled from her hand, her blood filled the blades as they hungers for more. It didn’t end. Not even after the feelings of her wrist was gone, it kept going, She tried to pull her head away, but it just slid her in. No one helped as she felt the blades go into her head.

The blades just chewed through her skull, mashed through her brains. It didn’t end, not as the sharp thick needle point pops her eyes, her brain done, but she was still trapped in the vision. Though she had no mouth to scream in agony, she was, going through her spin. From the neck down to the tail. Her legs and her feet, she was there until the body of the woodchopper she was trapped in was no more. Pieces of slushy, that what he was, a flash and bone, bloody slushy, mixed in the dusts of oak trees."

disturbing imagery yet it adds to the story i like it enjoyable read))
((Poor little girl should of been to a school with common sense. Every child is different. The story was very good. I like how you described the day and the incident. I like this story a lot. I look forward to see where you are taking me. A very good chapter. Thank you.
Coyote))
(( Other the word mistakes. it was great! This made me loook back at my days in kindergarten, but of course back then i was trouble! razz Can't wait for the next chapter! I'm glad u started writing this again!))
((i like it smile i think you did very well with the detail i could see a clear picture in my head. i see you have great talent smile ))
((great job nice work))
((Great job. I wonder how long it took you to write that? Days I'd imagine. Not so sure I could write that much.))
((Another great chapter. The scene that you described was terrifying in a good way. I could definitely see the scene. Nice job yet again.))
((This is pretty damn good, I gotta say. I'm a "serious novelist," whatever that means, and I can see your talent here. ))
((i am really amazed with your dedication, discipline and descriptions....))
((i loved this its sad that not even mayela's parents understand her pain i hope she doesn't get sent to that special school once again i loved this it was a fantastic chapter))
((This is going to be a really interesting story. This chapter is going to need polishing though. There are two paragraphs in which I didn't know exactly what you meant to be saying. Tired tonight. May have misunderstood part of it too, but found the following. Double check them.))
((This is developing really nicely. I love the gruesome description when Mayela was touched by the teacher. You've obviously really paid attention when reading horror novels and developed your own macabre style. I'm really getting pulled into the story now and wondering whether there can ever be a 'cure' for her problem and where it's come from. Splendid and imaginative writing!))
((well done, I like it ^_^
keep on writing.
I cant wait to read more ^_^))
((ouch that hurts ... it actually does...
i know the pain of being different and you have explained it beautifully
good job!!))
((Woot! I loved this chapter! It really shows us how teachers don't listen to the child, even when they are being honest. If the teacher hadn't of touched her...it all would have been fine! The principals reaction was perfect! They are more politicians anyway...they'd rather not get involved with a situation like this. So his reaction worked great.

Looking forward to the next chapter!
Great Job Ashley!

Hugs!
Wolfie))
((Amazing chapters, good details. ))
((i really liked this! the little girl is really smart! great job!))
((that was gr8!!!!!!!! I really enjoyed it. Poor Mayela- i know what it feels like to not fit in that well at school. Its really bad. And youve described it so well!1!
pLEASE please please write mor, im loving this book. It should be published some day!!!!!!!))
((Wow!!! I would feel so DIFFERENT omg. she's so much smarter than all those kids. hell, she;s reading stephen king. And she can't be touched, and that stupid teached didn't understand. You know, those stupid people should have put in that note "DO NOT TOUCH HER OR ELSE" Uhg. Whatever. But now I wanna read about this special school! ))

I normally ask friends whom I can trust will not sugar-coat, or I show it to my father. I want people to tell me something sucks and why, and what they feel is working.

I have a very, very small circle of friends that I share my works-in-progress with. I only ever post fanfiction online, and I never expect much beyond the usual FFN responses.



There are a few things I look for:

-Consistency. If a lot of people are pointing out the same thing, I revisit it.
-The reasoning behind the critique. It is one thing to tell me to change something a character does because it feels out-of-character or throws the character out of whack. It is another if the critic is telling me to change it because they, personally, hate what the character is doing.
-Spelling/grammar that I might have missed.
-Who is critiquing it. For example, I take my father a lot more seriously than my mother. He tends to better focus on what works and what does not as opposed to my mother focusing on the subject matter/content regardless of the actual story and the context of said content.

Things I will blatantly ignore:

-The aforementioned, "I hate this, so you should change it/take it out."

• Actual example: my mother was reading over my shoulder and saw that one of my characters had called another a b*****d. She pretty much told me to change it because it was "not appropriate" (glad she had not read the rest, which was leading into a rape scene...), and cited religious reasons for it (our family is Mormon). I explained that just because we are religious does not mean my characters are, and honestly, I could have picked something worse. Would she have preferred "********," "cocksucker," or "a*****e"? Because I do not think some cutesy insult like "jerk," "nincompoop," or "idiot" would cut it, or hold the same weight as "b*****d" (which, as pointed out, is relatively mild). Also factor in that I am twenty-two and do not write for little kids like she does, nor care about rare, relatively mild swears in the whole book. I find the Precision F Strike to be useful.

-Flames, but that was already more or less a given
-Advice that is well-meaning, but simply does not work for my story. I usually file it away for use later, though. Just because I cannot use it here does not mean I cannot use it elsewhere.

• Another example. Someone once suggested I make a character into a kind of hero (he was trying to give her some more relatable/likability factors, which I admit she needed). The problem with that is...she is selfish, and will not do something like (actual suggestion) get a toy for a lonely child on Christmas Eve. I pretty much politely declined the suggestion and figured out another way to make relating to her easier on my own.

Overall, I am blunt and refuse to sugar-coat, but I try to be polite. If something is not working, I will say so and I will say why. I do point out the stronger parts of the piece, however, and encourage the author to keep writing.

I am more lenient on younger authors, however, and those without as much skill. I still refuse to sugar-coat, but I will be a little nicer than someone who clearly has more experience.



I like to focus on what I feel is not working first, to get it out of the way, and then say what is working, and what I would like to see more of. I guess you could say I tear them down, then build them back up.

One thing I always make sure to do is be clear that I am tearing down the work and not the author. I also believe that for every thing you say is wrong/not working, you need to explain why and give a suggestion or two (or three or four) on how to fix it. Sometimes, it is a simple fix; other times, it is a "scrap this and start over" kind of fix. You still need to be clear on why you feel the fix is needed, and clearer still that it is only a suggestion. Maybe the author can find another way that works.

I do try to consider the author when I critique, and I adjust my bluntness-to-sweetness meter in accordance with it. I will be nicer to someone who is just starting, or at a lower skill level. I will a lot more blunt with someone who claims to have experience...and any idiot who (especially if I give them the nicer run-down) whines and bitches and moans that I am mean, do not understand them, am a talentless hack, have no taste, or any other excuse that basically translates to "I am being a brat because you will not kiss the ground I walk on." Then I have no qualms with being a lot more blunt.

I find that those who are serious about asking for critique will thank me for my time and go edit, while the attention whores end up looking like fools and crawling back into their holes after a time.

The only criticism I really receive is from my few friends that I send my stories out to. I'll send it out every few chapters and beg them for their honest opinions and help with it. A certain friend always gives great criticism to me, and has even gone over some of my entire manuscripts leaving detailed comments and such (Which I very highly respect him for doing so ^^)

When it comes to me critiquing other people's work, yes, I adjust my critiquing to the level of the writer. I'm not a very good critic, I will admit. I usually find just about everything to be good where others will find it 'sketchy' or 'in great need of improvement'. So people don't often come to me for criticism, but when they do, I try my best to point out as much as I can without being too annoying.