magic that has no ties to religion

[Daearen]

What kind of magic out there has no ties to a religion? It seems that most magic is bound to a certain religion. My boyfriend wants to believe in magic but its hard to show him what it is first hand because he is also catholic and doesnt want to do anything that involves another religion. :3  

[xXrainbowrazorsXx]

Irish catholics back in the day still believed in faeries and etc and what i think is if jesus and god and angels are not magic what are they?? explain to him that magic is the same as all of the amasing stuuf that jesus and the saints etc performed.

if you don't likethat witchcraft in not defintivly tied to religon, celtic myticism is also a good way to show him, it is a way of life and not a religon(like being not eating meat)  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Does your boyfriend feel that Catholic Magic is okay?  

[Calelith]

Witchcraft has no ties to any religion, because it's a craft.

(edited by guild crew)  

[rmcdra]

lCobaltl

What kind of magic out there has no ties to a religion? It seems that most magic is bound to a certain religion. My boyfriend wants to believe in magic but its hard to show him what it is first hand because he is also catholic and doesnt want to do anything that involves another religion. :3

That's going to be tough considering what the catechism has to say.

catechism of the catholic church

2115 God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints. Still, a sound Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future, and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it. Improvidence, however, can constitute a lack of responsibility.

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.

The catholic Church clearly states it's a no-no but it would really depend on how strict of a catholic he is. Especially considering that this section is an appeal to tradition rather than having biblical backing. I can post Tea's guide to witchcraft in Christiandom if you would like.  

[Daearen]

@ Brass Bell Doll
Yes he is very open minded about it but he is also skeptical about it. He belives it could be possible though. :3

@ rmcdra
He isn't very strict about it. He actually has his own set of beliefs that are catholic based but different. Oh and i would like to see the guide very much. :3

(edited by guild crew)  

[rmcdra]

Hope this helps.

TeaDidikai

Tea's Witchcraft within Christendom v2.1

The conflict within Christianity over Witchcraft is a bullshit political contrivance.

Lets address the translation errors. Some of these are so skewed as to completely change passages in their entirety, some merely alter the meanings of the words within the Tanakh.

Quote:

"There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto The Lord: and because of these abominations The Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee." (Deuteronomy 18:10-12 KJV)

"Divination" is from the Hebrew "qecem" which is also used in Prov 16:10, is only a bad thing when done with unclean spirits (as is noted by it's positive used in Proverbs). The word denotes seeking insights from spirits. It is used in both positive and negative lights within the context of scripture, making it clear that the action of seeking guidance from said spirit is only a boon or bane to the faith within the context of the purity of the spirit in question.

"Observer of Times" is summed up within the Hebrew 'anan, which means "covering things" - either by using trickery to pass for prophecy or more likely speaking hidden things, or lies to hide the truth.

"An Enchanter" is summed up in the Hebrew nachash, which meant to hiss or whisper. An open condemnation of gossip to one's benefit.

"Witch" is a faulty translation of kashaph, which is to pray or offer prayers in worship. It needs context unless you are going to damn all of Christendom. The context is straightforward, it addresses those of YHVH's children who do so to gods other than YHVH. This is established in direct opposition to YHVH's commandments.

"Charmer" is mistranslated from the Hebrew chabar, which means to unite and in context is to unite through trickery.

Familiar Spirits come from the word 'owb or "wine skins", which is a direct condemnation prophecy from a bottle- aka, taking drunken ranting as divine edict. More over this ties to the prohibition of using grape products that are of a non-Jewish processing as the initial Kosher Laws within the Jewish faith cite the fact that wine was often consecrated to pagan gods at each step of the fermentation process.

"Wizard" is from the word "yidda`oniy", which means a false prophet.

Necromancer is a piss poor translation of darash, who is a seeker- once again within context of seeking unclean spirits for guidance.

Quote:

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." (Exodus 22:18 KJV)

This one is pretty straight forward. "Witch" as cited above is kashaph, and only applies within the context of the Torah to those who entered into covenant with YHVH at the Mountain and betray YHVH.

Quote:

"For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry." (1 Samuel 15:23 KJV)

"Witchcraft" is translated from qecem once again for this part of the text.

Quote:

"Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times . . . Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God." (Lev. 19:26, 31)

And now we're back to the Hebrew and nachash and 'anan have already been covered. As have 'owb and yidda`oniy as are already explained above.

Quote:

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21 KJV)

At least within the Greek we have a new term. Pharmakeia- or herbalist or medicine maker. This is a three fold issue.

First, we have the use of plants to poison rather than heal. That goes directly against the Law of Love and the Commandments.

The added insult to injury is the benefit the poisoner would gain from his actions. We have established above with concepts such as nachash- in which deception is wrong holds a larger debt when done for one's personal benefit.

This is a very pragmatic approach that is seen even within our modern culture. Accidents are forgiven, direct harm and crimes of passion are punished, but premeditation to profit on another's suffering is damned even further.

It makes perfect sense that someone who would hide a death by poison for their benefit would be in unfavorable standing with YHVH.

Boxy's interjection -- pharmakeia also means "pariah" or "exile" in Greek. Part of the cultural context of this is that murderers were expelled from the community under pain of death. Thus you have the added context of confirmed murderers hanging around where they're not supposed to, which causes problems to the people of YHVH.

Quote:

"Blessed are they that do His Commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." (Revelation 22:14-15 KJV)

Let's ignore for a moment the fact that Revelation's is one big political satire aimed at Nero.

"Sorcerers" once again is translated from pharmakos as addressed above.

Quote:

"Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts." (Rev. 9:21)

"Sorceries" has the same root as above. Unrepentant poisoners aren't likely to have YHVH's mercy if they are one of his children. The key being unrepentant.

Quote:

"And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived." (Rev. 18:23)

Aside from the fact the Greek is getting repetitive, you have to hand the use of imagery by John to condemn pharmakeia as the poisoners of nations. It's either a metaphor, or the common practice of poisoning wells and salting lands sending governments into chaos. Exd 23:22 addresses YHVH's stance on being an enemy to his Children.

However, within the context of metaphor, we revisit pharmakeia in a new light- that is to say, to poison with words. We have already established that False Prophets, or yidda`oniy. Even the New Testament condemns them in Mat 7:15, Mat 24:24 and Mar 13:22. This is why 1Jo 4:1 demands one test the spirits that give rise to prophecy.

I realize I am using bastardized approximated Hebrew (one of these days I will have Hebrew enabled on this computer), but it will do in a pinch.

Now, the Jewish Faith does not actively seek to convert others. The reason for this is that they understand that to enter covenant with their god is not a universal demand from their god.

Not everyone is called to serve YHVH. Most of the mass conversion comes out of Paul's edicts from Acts onward, not Yeshua's within the Gospels.

The OT establishes not only that YHVH has a covenant with his people- being the children of Adam and Eve, but that other gods exist. Note how the Ten Commandments does not assert that all other gods are false gods outside of eisegesis, but it names gods other than YHVH within the OT such as Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians found in 1Kings.

Now- we know that Original Sin is tied to Adam and Eve's line. As Adam and Eve are not the only point of Creation within the Scripture (note the lack of YHVH's presence in Gen 1:1), it stands to reason that there is no more evidence that they are the only humans (note in Genesis how Cain takes a wife from humans already established in the lands East of Eden).

The Bible is the communication of the decedents of Adam and Eve and YHVH's relationship with his creation. It stands to reason that his relationship which is turned into a Covenant at Mt. Sinai does not apply to those who are not of that line- especially considering the context of the revelation of YHVH to his children and the formation of the Jewish faith as a direct edict applying to them, not to the people that were the Children and descendents of other gods such as the People of Cain's wife- or Seth's wife.

These other peoples are consistently referred to in the OT. See: Jer 10:2 and Lev. 18:3.

YHVH clearly states he is not the god of these pagan peoples- but at no time does he say that these gods are not real. Pagan peoples have their own gods their own lineage and heritage. Thus only those in covenant with YHVH are bound by his laws. Furthermore- the scripture itself, when it context does not damn those who practice qecem within the guidelines of Clean spirits found within YHVH's domain.

 

[surukio]

rmcdra

lCobaltl

What kind of magic out there has no ties to a religion? It seems that most magic is bound to a certain religion. My boyfriend wants to believe in magic but its hard to show him what it is first hand because he is also catholic and doesnt want to do anything that involves another religion. :3

That's going to be tough considering what the catechism has to say.

catechism of the catholic church

2115 God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints. Still, a sound Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future, and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it. Improvidence, however, can constitute a lack of responsibility.

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.

The catholic Church clearly states it's a no-no but it would really depend on how strict of a catholic he is. Especially considering that this section is an appeal to tradition rather than having biblical backing. I can post Tea's guide to witchcraft in Christiandom if you would like.

"catholic folk magic" apprarently doesn't count cause you are requesting the aid of the saint [which was also a way to hide the yoruba belief system behind the catholic saints who were patrons of the same aspects [santeria(lucumi), voudou and candoble]

it all depends, cause at its very super basic, prayer can be consitered magic, for its is essentially will+intent  

[Brass Bell Doll]

He may find that the use of things like blessed oils, salts and Holy Water in addition to prayers and readings from the Bible regarding the issue he is facing would be helpful.

If he doesn't do anything that is on the list that rcmdra provided, then there shouldn't be an issue with seeking the help of Saints.  

[great_goddess_Anu]

Magick is Magick. It's in everything around you. Every time you laugh, smile, cry, scream, dance, sleep, breath, brush your hair, swim, pet your cat, shall I go on. Everything is magick because its part if our magickal little world we live in. Thats what i think anywho so there is sooo much out there that he can work with. That he works with every day of his life....just help him chanel it and that will make it stronger. mrgreen why do you think you like himso much? i think thats becasue no matter if he ment ot or not its a love spell that brought you together...maybe its his eyes, his voice, his laugh, i dont know but its there. Maybe explain that to him to.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

great_goddess_Anu

Magick is Magick. It's in everything around you. Every time you laugh, smile, cry, scream, dance, sleep, breath, brush your hair, swim, pet your cat, shall I go on. Everything is magick because its part if our magickal little world we live in. Thats what i think anywho so there is sooo much out there that he can work with. That he works with every day of his life....just help him chanel it and that will make it stronger. mrgreen why do you think you like himso much? i think thats becasue no matter if he ment ot or not its a love spell that brought you together...maybe its his eyes, his voice, his laugh, i dont know but its there. Maybe explain that to him to.

While I feel that there is an essence of truth in what you've said, that magick is a natural part of the world we live in, I feel it is important to note that there is a difference between being in something's presence and actively participating in the environment around us.

I also feel it is important to note that while your understanding may be very important to your spiritual development, it's one that may be very detrimental to his. We don't know enough about him to tell if this is something that he needs to learn now or at another time.  

[Tari_Leralonde]

The book Practical Magic for Beginners by Brandy Williams is a fantastic beginning magic book that isn't based in any religion at all. It's the first book I recommend to those who want to learn magic, but don't want to be part of a religion or spirituality in order to do so. (one of my friends is agnostic, and she adores the book)  

[doistu]

My magical practice has pretty much nothing to do with my religion. The two are not synonymous. However, my religion does not have laws and rules against magic and witchcraft. Catholicism and Christianity does.
I guess its whatever you feel is right.