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 Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 1:23 am
Lately here I have noticed on Gia many posts about people and their hatred of Christianity. I was thinking about this and I came up with an interestering realization! It started out with a question, "Why do so many people who are not Christians dispise Christianity so much?" I came up with the conclusion that when you grow up living in a Christian society (like America, where I live) and have beliefs that are drastically different from the norm, then you will undoubtably feel alienated and shunned. People that are not Christian will see all the Christian influences traced throughout the society and feel like they are a stranger in their own land. So many non-Christians attack Christianity not because it is evil, but because they grow to see it that way. Let me elaborate . . . We are led to believe through our churches and our society that certain things are essential to our way of life and indeed we would not be "civilized" people without them. If you've grown up in America you will know what I mean. Life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness (and the fear and worship of the Judeo-Christian God), are all part of the America we grew up in. Indeed I've realized recently just how "Christian" our great America really is. Most of our morals and many of our traditions and rituals are rooted in Christian belief. Consequently, because many of the basic foundations for our country are laid on Christian principles, we are instilled with one very distinct idea from the moment we start our lives here, "Christianity is the one right religion." This can be seen echoed throughout our entire culture and indeed it gives rise to ideas such as "America is the greatest of all lands[because of our God given freedoms, that are protected and ensured]," and also, " America will go on thriving forever [most likely this idea springs from the fact that if we are a God-fearing nation then surely we will not fall, another words God has our back]." The idea that Christianity is the one right religion can be quite scary (especially to those Athiests and Agnostics who are vastely out numbered by Theists here in America). So I think that many Agnostics and Atheists feel that Christianity is slowly taking over and abolishing one religion after another on it's goal to becoming the one "True" religion. And of course once it has accomplished it's goal then we would live in a world completely centered on a Christian idealogy. Here's the punch line: I realize now that Christianity (athough still the largest player) is not some evil giant trying to rule the world, but here in America it only seems that way. There are countless religions spanned all across the globe. If I grew up in the Middle East I might feel that Islam was the crushing world idealogy. If I grew up in India I might feel that Hinduism was the world view that everyone was following. Christianity is simply one of many explanations of our place in the universe; it is not right or wrong, it simply is. p.s. By the way just wanted to let you know that I originally posted this topic on the general Morality and Religion section of ED. I'm interested to see what you guys think. Plus I've seen already that ED topics don't always seem to go quite like you expect them to. ~j_alfredsephiroth http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11504127
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Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 4:46 am
I would have to differ from most of your views there.
I think you should keep in mind that the majority of gaians are 16 or younger, and a lot of them see atheism as some sort of fad, some way to assure their "rebellious" nature, how they don't submit to the "system". But, of course, not all atheist are like that.
Also, not all atheists hate christianity. Like myself, a lot of them just disagree and just don't accept any doctrines, not just christianity.
But, I should say, christianity (like most other religions) give people plenty reasons to be hated. Specially the numerous contradictions in the bible and the uncertainty of what God really is like. They like to say he's all forgiving, generous and all that, but God did some really mean things, as said on the bible. Take Job, for example. God totally messes up with the life of a FAITHFUL servant just to prove a point to SATAN. Then theists could say that Job would just be rewarded on the Kingdom of Heaven, and expect us to believe in that.
I'd say, christianity (or any other religion) can be hated not for what you said, but because believers abandon logic for blind faith.
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Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 5:30 pm
MightyHikaru I'd say, christianity (or any other religion) can be hated not for what you said, but because believers abandon logic for blind faith. Just to be clear on this are you saying that all or most christians have abandoned logic or are you saying that any that have should be hated? Also what are you saying about other religions?
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:43 pm
I would say the biggest factor is Christianity forcing itself upon others. Christianity is like a mind-disease. People infected with this disease are compelled to spread it to others. And if those people aren't receptive, they just continue hammering away with their propoganda hoping the non-believer will crack. And believe me, if the non-believer shows any sign of weakness or confusion they will capitalize upon that.
Not only that, but Christianity constantly tries to influence the government, schools and any aspect of society that they can. A great example, is how some states have turned back the clocks hundreds of years and are again debating if evolution should be allowed to be taught in schools. Even with today's technology having proven evolution in many different ways, since it does not agree with the "holy word" it is blasphemous and should be completely ignored if on condemned. Yet, evolution exists in every aspect of life and in biology is visible in the AIDS virus which can evolve in less than an hour. Meanwhile, Christians do their damndest to not evolve and to fight change.
Being that most gaians are minors, they have their parents beliefs forced upon them, often causing misery in their lives. So, even if the child is not a strong believer in the faith, their devout parents may force them to go to church, bible study, CCD and say prayers.
Personally, my parents were not devout Christians at all. They believed I had the right to decide on my spirituality for myself. I explored several churches and religions, and decided it wasn't for me. How was I treated for making such a decision? I was condemned. Not only that, but I was constantly hounded by much of the population in the small town I grew up in. I started playing role playing games with friends, and word got out... next thing I know, I'm getting phone calls every day from ministers, pastors and fanatics all calling trying to "save" me. This would be called harassment or trolling in most circumstances, and just like anyone who is being harassed, I took great offense to it.
Now, I don't hold it against you if you are a Christian. It's your personal belief, and something that makes you who you are. But when you try to force your beliefs on others, especially when they have made it clear that they do not want to hear it, then you become an enemy.
My final 2 cents - I think religion has caused more harm to humanity than good. I would even say there is a direct correlation between religion & war, as it causes so much strife inside our culture and between differing cultures because, for whatever reason, we want everyone to believe the same as we do. Well... I don't. I want everyone to think for themselves. The worst thing a person can do is accept the word of another without any question or qualm. And, even as a young child in Sunday school, I was basically told that I need to quit asking questions and just accept what I was being told. And why not? It's good for capitalism, good for the government in controlling the masses and it gives you an entire army of individuals that will do whatever you ask of them.
*climbs off of soap box*
And with that, I bid thee farewell.
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:52 pm
Odd... Gaia just glitched out on me. It said that last post wasn't posted... so I spent time to write another pointless monologue. Oh well...
My belief? God is everything. It's not something to be worshipped or had ideals built around. I am god, you are god... this computer I am typing into is god. Think about it logically... facts we know about the ideal of God: He is all powerful and knows everything. Well... what in this universe is all powerful and knows everything? The universe itself! If you got run over by a car, yes... God killed you, because God was the car, and the driver and you're stupid a** for being in a place you could get run over.
That belief has hurt many egos, but it's my belief. Don't like it? Go find your own. xd
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Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:41 pm
MightyHikaru I would have to differ from most of your views there. I think you should keep in mind that the majority of gaians are 16 or younger, and a lot of them see atheism as some sort of fad, some way to assure their "rebellious" nature, how they don't submit to the "system". But, of course, not all atheist are like that. Also, not all atheists hate christianity. Like myself, a lot of them just disagree and just don't accept any doctrines, not just christianity. But, I should say, christianity (like most other religions) give people plenty reasons to be hated. Specially the numerous contradictions in the bible and the uncertainty of what God really is like. They like to say he's all forgiving, generous and all that, but God did some really mean things, as said on the bible. Take Job, for example. God totally messes up with the life of a FAITHFUL servant just to prove a point to SATAN. Then theists could say that Job would just be rewarded on the Kingdom of Heaven, and expect us to believe in that. I'd say, christianity (or any other religion) can be hated not for what you said, but because believers abandon logic for blind faith. Thats funny because Job didn't think his life was being messed up even when Satan attacked his flesh he still praised YHWH in all His glory thus it wasn't mean it was good.
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Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:45 pm
ochimaru I would say the biggest factor is Christianity forcing itself upon others. Christianity is like a mind-disease. People infected with this disease are compelled to spread it to others. And if those people aren't receptive, they just continue hammering away with their propoganda hoping the non-believer will crack. And believe me, if the non-believer shows any sign of weakness or confusion they will capitalize upon that. Not only that, but Christianity constantly tries to influence the government, schools and any aspect of society that they can. A great example, is how some states have turned back the clocks hundreds of years and are again debating if evolution should be allowed to be taught in schools. Even with today's technology having proven evolution in many different ways, since it does not agree with the "holy word" it is blasphemous and should be completely ignored if on condemned. Yet, evolution exists in every aspect of life and in biology is visible in the AIDS virus which can evolve in less than an hour. Meanwhile, Christians do their damndest to not evolve and to fight change. Being that most gaians are minors, they have their parents beliefs forced upon them, often causing misery in their lives. So, even if the child is not a strong believer in the faith, their devout parents may force them to go to church, bible study, CCD and say prayers. Personally, my parents were not devout Christians at all. They believed I had the right to decide on my spirituality for myself. I explored several churches and religions, and decided it wasn't for me. How was I treated for making such a decision? I was condemned. Not only that, but I was constantly hounded by much of the population in the small town I grew up in. I started playing role playing games with friends, and word got out... next thing I know, I'm getting phone calls every day from ministers, pastors and fanatics all calling trying to "save" me. This would be called harassment or trolling in most circumstances, and just like anyone who is being harassed, I took great offense to it. Now, I don't hold it against you if you are a Christian. It's your personal belief, and something that makes you who you are. But when you try to force your beliefs on others, especially when they have made it clear that they do not want to hear it, then you become an enemy. My final 2 cents - I think religion has caused more harm to humanity than good. I would even say there is a direct correlation between religion & war, as it causes so much strife inside our culture and between differing cultures because, for whatever reason, we want everyone to believe the same as we do. Well... I don't. I want everyone to think for themselves. The worst thing a person can do is accept the word of another without any question or qualm. And, even as a young child in Sunday school, I was basically told that I need to quit asking questions and just accept what I was being told. And why not? It's good for capitalism, good for the government in controlling the masses and it gives you an entire army of individuals that will do whatever you ask of them. *climbs off of soap box* And with that, I bid thee farewell. odd growing up in a Christian family and you don't see that trying to save you is a act of love?
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Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:35 am
An act of love? Just because your parents are brainwashed doesn't mean you have to be. I guess that's where the crux of the whole controvery lies. People who are Christians feel they are "saved" and that everyone else is going to suffer and burn in hell for all eternity, therefore, they are doing us a FAVOR by harassing the hell out of us. Well, if you harass someone, you should be fully prepared to be harassed in return.
Personally, I think the whole Christian ideology is a bunch of horse crap. Jesus was just like Robin Hood, Davey Crocket and King Arther. Oh, sure, they were all real people, but none of them are the super-hero's we make them out to be now. And there's even some question if some of those fabled figures exist.
What gets me the MOST about the fanatics, is that they believe the word of the bible as "the word of God." It's 100% fact. Even though, it was cannonized in the 400's from verbal stories that had been passed down for hundreds of years, and the priests who cannonized it went thru the stories picking & choosing the ones they liked & editing the content. And THEN you have the whole translation thing. Each time it was translated, the translator & their supervisor interpretted passages the way they wanted. All of these points to a story that's been so bastardized it is truly a historical fiction. The damn bible doesn't even refer to Zoroaster, and it assumes that the world was only confined to the middle east where most of the stories occurred. Such as the great flood, which has been proven to only have occurred in that specific region. Does that mean in 2,000+ years people will talk about New Orleans being destroyed by a great flood from God b/c the people were evil? I'm sure that's what many of those backwoods supersticious spiritual people are thinking down there.
Regardless, I don't care what you believe. Believe what you feel is best. But to try to force that on others is where I have the problem. That's no different than a druggie trying to push his drugs on you. Do you want to be a "pusher?" And if you do, I'll happily be a "shover." ha ha... rofl
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Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:36 pm
ochimaru An act of love? Just because your parents are brainwashed doesn't mean you have to be. I guess that's where the crux of the whole controvery lies. People who are Christians feel they are "saved" and that everyone else is going to suffer and burn in hell for all eternity, therefore, they are doing us a FAVOR by harassing the hell out of us. Well, if you harass someone, you should be fully prepared to be harassed in return. Personally, I think the whole Christian ideology is a bunch of horse crap. Jesus was just like Robin Hood, Davey Crocket and King Arther. Oh, sure, they were all real people, but none of them are the super-hero's we make them out to be now. And there's even some question if some of those fabled figures exist. What gets me the MOST about the fanatics, is that they believe the word of the bible as "the word of God." It's 100% fact. Even though, it was cannonized in the 400's from verbal stories that had been passed down for hundreds of years, and the priests who cannonized it went thru the stories picking & choosing the ones they liked & editing the content. And THEN you have the whole translation thing. Each time it was translated, the translator & their supervisor interpretted passages the way they wanted. All of these points to a story that's been so bastardized it is truly a historical fiction. The damn bible doesn't even refer to Zoroaster, and it assumes that the world was only confined to the middle east where most of the stories occurred. Such as the great flood, which has been proven to only have occurred in that specific region. Does that mean in 2,000+ years people will talk about New Orleans being destroyed by a great flood from God b/c the people were evil? I'm sure that's what many of those backwoods supersticious spiritual people are thinking down there. Regardless, I don't care what you believe. Believe what you feel is best. But to try to force that on others is where I have the problem. That's no different than a druggie trying to push his drugs on you. Do you want to be a "pusher?" And if you do, I'll happily be a "shover." ha ha... rofl But what about beilefs that include the idea that you shold be a "pusher" as you call it? Would you deny them their right to beilve that? In my opinion it is there riht to want youto beilve the same as them and it is or right not to and even get pissed off about them being pushers if you must.
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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:04 am
MightyHikaru I would have to differ from most of your views there. I think you should keep in mind that the majority of gaians are 16 or younger, and a lot of them see atheism as some sort of fad, some way to assure their "rebellious" nature, how they don't submit to the "system". But, of course, not all atheist are like that. Also, not all atheists hate christianity. Like myself, a lot of them just disagree and just don't accept any doctrines, not just christianity. But, I should say, christianity (like most other religions) give people plenty reasons to be hated. Specially the numerous contradictions in the bible and the uncertainty of what God really is like. They like to say he's all forgiving, generous and all that, but God did some really mean things, as said on the bible. Take Job, for example. God totally messes up with the life of a FAITHFUL servant just to prove a point to SATAN. Then theists could say that Job would just be rewarded on the Kingdom of Heaven, and expect us to believe in that. I'd say, christianity (or any other religion) can be hated not for what you said, but because believers abandon logic for blind faith. I agree with you completely- It's not christianity that I don't approve of, but religion in general. Personally, I think that, in this day an age, religion is unnecessary. While I understand that some people need it, I don't think that they should. Religion is an unhealthy crutch, and should be done away with. And, growing up in America, it also seems the christianity is worst in this. It wasn't until I was older (16 or so) that I really understood my own feelings on the subject.
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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:51 pm
vorel_vargach But what about beilefs that include the idea that you shold be a "pusher" as you call it? Would you deny them their right to beilve that? In my opinion it is there riht to want youto beilve the same as them and it is or right not to and even get pissed off about them being pushers if you must. I agree with that whole-heartedly. It's what freedom is all about, right? Anyone is free to punch another right in the face, it's the backlash that only the attacker can be held responsible for. The victim is just that, the victim of a haneous attack. rofl Or righteous attack as it may be. mrgreen This seems to be the core of all wars, as well. Only, the attacker is not always the entity that suffers from the backlash. Sometimes it can be the ideal, a neighboring entity or the victim. This would be true in all of today's current wars & controversies. pirate Pirate of the jackasses
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Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:12 pm
For a bunch of so-called philosophers, you all seem so sure of your damnation of religion - especially Christianity (which is not a single religion, as none have noted yet).
First note: In Job, God did nothing evil to Job. The devil was the cause of all his troubles, and Job understood this. So all your talk of God causing his pain and suffering proving that he is evil, well... read the damn book. Do some research before you bash, people. Philosophers, you say.
It seems to me that not one person here has ever really looked at the core philosophies of Chrisitianity, nor have you actually realized that one group of Christians is not the same as another. The wide array of Christian religions ranges from those who thank God for dead soldiers, simply because we live in a country that is divided on the issue of homosexuality, to those who travel the world, not to push their religion on others, but to act in their own faith toward others to help them live better lives. Philosophers.
"I'm sure that's what many of those backwoods supersticious spiritual people are thinking down there. " Interesting concept you spoke of. Your blind hatred could be an interesting topic to explore. Philosophers.
I'm saddened by the lack of philosophical discussion here. This is my first time posting in this guild, and I was hoping to see less ignorant bashing than one would find in ED or even GD. The discussion here seems to be reminiscent of discussions with ignorant high schoolers I've had years back. Philosophy is the love of knowledge, not the love of ignorant opinions.
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Socrates in Disguise Captain
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Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:43 am
Shekibobo For a bunch of so-called philosophers, you all seem so sure of your damnation of religion - especially Christianity (which is not a single religion, as none have noted yet). First note: In Job, God did nothing evil to Job. The devil was the cause of all his troubles, and Job understood this. So all your talk of God causing his pain and suffering proving that he is evil, well... read the damn book. Do some research before you bash, people. Philosophers, you say. It seems to me that not one person here has ever really looked at the core philosophies of Chrisitianity, nor have you actually realized that one group of Christians is not the same as another. The wide array of Christian religions ranges from those who thank God for dead soldiers, simply because we live in a country that is divided on the issue of homosexuality, to those who travel the world, not to push their religion on others, but to act in their own faith toward others to help them live better lives. Philosophers. "I'm sure that's what many of those backwoods supersticious spiritual people are thinking down there. " Interesting concept you spoke of. Your blind hatred could be an interesting topic to explore. Philosophers. I'm saddened by the lack of philosophical discussion here. This is my first time posting in this guild, and I was hoping to see less ignorant bashing than one would find in ED or even GD. The discussion here seems to be reminiscent of discussions with ignorant high schoolers I've had years back. Philosophy is the love of knowledge, not the love of ignorant opinions. I'm sorry you find us ignorant of such common knowledge. Oh, and by the way, Philosophy from Latin: Philosophia Middle English philosophie, from Old French, from Latin philosophia, from Greek philosophi, from philosophos, lover of wisdom. not knowledge, if your gonna insult my guild get it right. Unfortunatly ANY philosophy on any topic is going to have it's fallacies. It's just the way it works. Things are gonna be said and you have every right to say against it. but judging my entire guild of philosophers based on what a mere 6 people said is quite saddening...and frankly ignorant itself. None of us here claim to be college professors and my younger members could be as young as 13 I believe. Not everyone is going to know everything like you seem to be claiming. As my name probably already indicated I don't claim to know anything, for in truth it is impossible to truly "know." I've asked that everyone who came here to open there mind and discuss ANY idea no matter how controversial and/or absurd it may seem. I understand that deep philosophy hasn't happened in quite some time as I was forced to take leave of Gaia for quite some time due to issues in reality. I've been trying to get people to bring this guild back to life. If you think that there isn't any philosophical discussions here, then make one and get people to think. What the topic was focusing on was in fact Christian extremist. And was accepted by all members of the debate. We ALL know there are about 40 trillion different versions of christianity, but i assume the before mentioned found it quite irrevelant for the way they discussed it made it quite clear the demograph that they referred to. Some assumptions were made and some fallacies but what they didn't do was straight out insult anyone. AS YOU HAVE JUST DONE. stare If you would like to actually be a member of my guild and actually discuss topics rather than degrade those attempting to discuss it already. Make another post like this one insulting my guild I will ban you and make sure you are flamed till you burn.
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Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:48 am
puresilver I'd say, christianity (or any other religion) can be hated not for what you said, but because believers abandon logic for blind faith. I agree with you completely- It's not christianity that I don't approve of, but religion in general. Personally, I think that, in this day an age, religion is unnecessary. While I understand that some people need it, I don't think that they should. Religion is an unhealthy crutch, and should be done away with. And, growing up in America, it also seems the christianity is worst in this. It wasn't until I was older (16 or so) that I really understood my own feelings on the subject. Oy, I get tired of seeing the "religion is an unhealthy crutch" nonsense, no offense to you personally. It has been my experience that those with that opinion have a narrow definition of religion. Most Americans only understand religion from the Western context and ignore or are ignorant of all else outside of it. Such people tend to define religion as if religion = organized religion (which has standardized doctrine, clergy, etc). A religious belief, broadly, is any ideaology which a person holds with the zealous equivalent of traditional belief in God. Scientists are often religious about science. Hardcore politicians are religious about ther careers.
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:27 am
I do apologize for offending the entirety of this guild. My comments were directed at those six or so posters who appeared to be insulting those who are Christian, and who were not simply looking for answers, but rather, stating their own, often biased and fallacious opinions of Christianity. I came into this thread expecting a much deeper discussion of the hatred of Christianity, rather than people simply spouting their own reasons for their own hatred (or dislike, or indiference). Very few questions have been asked here, which is what Socrates, of all people, was about.
Do not take my statements on this thread as an insult of the guild. My words were an attempt to get people to gain wisdom by discussing philosophy of the hatred of Christianity, instead of a thread simply relating stories of one another's hatred for Christianity.
The idea behind wisdom is searching for truth. When people make statements that are outright fallacies and do not acknowledge their own ignorance - that is nearly as far from wisdom as you can get.
Ban me, if you will. I only want to help around here. Not to judge your guild, or even the members who posted here, but at least on the topic of religion, we could all use a bit more wisdom.
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Reply
