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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:36 am
Warning, spoilers may be contained within this thread I'm actually writing this for someone, whom shall remain nameless unless they say otherwise, that is having difficulties with Kuroshitsuji due to their religion. They're a big fan and I know it must be a difficult situation for them; I wouldn't like the thought that an anime or manga I enjoy suddenly conflicted with my morals. Heck, a book even, or a song, or a TV show, anything. We're all here because we know the wonders of a fandom and how sad it is when that fandom dies out. It happens quick enough as people age and their preferances change, nothing else should push it aside unless thoroughly warranted.
As it is, that intro paragraph has probably introduced my view point. Personally I relate most closely with Taoism (or Daoism depending on how you pronounce it) and I do so in the more philisophic sense than religious. For those who have no idea about Taoism the most general way to explain it is a desire to be in harmony with nature. The easiest way to do something is in the most natural way possible. The story that had initially drawn me to this philosophy was the story of a butcher whose work carving animals was considered an art form and his blade never dulled, all because he followed the natural contours of the body he worked with instead of hacking and chopping away to force it to his desires.
As such, and even if I did take a more religious standpoint on Taoism, it does not have much to say in the realm of what influences one should have on their life. I am also new and still learning about it as well, so if you have questions, I believe the internet would be your next best stop.
I only included that for some basis, as I would like to know what religion you come from and how deeply involved with it you and/or your family are. That, along with your view points in regards to Kuroshitsuji, and anime in general, and whether or not it has conflicted for you. And if so, how, or why you're still a fan.
I personally believe that no matter the religion or belief a show, movie, or book, is all fantasy. It is a method meant for story-telling and for entertainment. If Kuroshitsuji was a real life record of someone who decided to forsake their belief in God and make a contract with a demon, then I could easily see the confliction. As it is, as it sadly is, nobody such as Sebastian, Grell, Pluto, or any of the others exist. At least not as far as the general populace is concerned.
Even as a work of fiction, I do believe that the person watching it matters as well. If someone younger was watching the show, or perhaps someone whom was naive, or gullible, and believed it to be true or took the situation as possible; this would be wrong. If the mind and opinion of the person watching the show are not swayed morally by what they see, then there is no harm to it. It is a well rendered, action-filled, sexy, campfire story. If it is watched for entertainment's sake and entertainment's sake alone then there is no harm.
As it is, with the particular situation portrayed in Kuroshitsuji, it cannot be seen as completely negative. Given the bounds of many religions (none of which I claim to be an expert on) making a deal with a demon, or even meddling with one, is inherently evil. But Ciel was beaten, tortured, and about to die. He is a character that has seen the destruction of all that he loved and has decided to be strong and fight back. Again, I know very little about other religions, but you cannot live and be happy if you don't live at all. And as Kuroshitsuji is only a story, there are so many other details that could have played out between what we are shown. One could imagine Ciel healing, especially after his words during the extra Hamlet episode, perhaps moving forward, being happy again. Of course, this all relies on the hope that he did not die in the end, and he is still alive and well in the manga. We don't know what will happen. Yes, I can see what is inherently wrong with the situation from such a viewpoint, but from that viewpoint you also have to see what could come from it.
And I do realize that last paragraph bumps against contradicting my primary statement, that it is only entertainment. However, a little indepth examination never hurt...Most English courses in this day and age would be reduced to spelling bees without it.
That, is my view. Feel free to ask questions, but more importantly, express your own opinions! This is something I wanted to do for a friend, as well as anyone else who might find themselves feeling conflicted after a turning point in their life. This is a place for all to share, not a place to argue or, as the term goes, bible-thump. Give views on your belief and not just Kuroshitsuji, but other animes that might experience this same run-in with religion.
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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:45 pm
Ooooooooh boy. –takes deep breath- Well, I’m not ashamed of my religion and thus, I am going to express my viewpoint for anyone that may share my religion or anything similar. I consider myself non-denominational Christian with a heavy association towards Lutheran. What does this mean? Well, for those that have no idea, it means that yes I believe in a God (as opposed to perhaps Shinto where they have multiple gods) but while other religions also believe in a supreme deity, I also believe in Jesus Christ . Now, this isn’t a religion discussion so I’ll connect this to Kuro.
Most religions are in agreement demons are evil. Heck, even in countries where they do not consider themselves religious (ie: Japan) they consider demons evil spirits. They believe in them. I believe in them too. Are they like super sexy Sebastian? Highly doubtful. xD Here is what I know about demon lore (I watch too many supernatural shows lulz) Demons are energy. They have no body of their own and thus rely on stealing energy of other life forms to maintain some kind of physical presence. They can also possess and blah de blah blah. Kuroshitsuji basis the plot on a Contract with a Devil. And if you’re religious you know that any kind of deal with the devil is like, the ultimate sin. However the manga is fictional, and thus nothing is connected to real life. As Seraph said, this is fantasy. Is Ciel doomed to hell, or is anyone that connects or sympathizes with this character being sinful? Guess what, THAT ISN’T OUR PLACE TO JUDGE.
If I have learned ANYTHING about religion after viewing so many different kinds…the ultimate rule is to “Judge not lest you be judged.” I don’t judge anyone if I can help it. There are things I disagree with in my religion such as gay rights and what not but who can really define the Bible word for word and declare what it means? Faith cannot really be explained, Faith is a feeling. So, is Kuroshitsuji about Ciel giving up on his Faith? He just made a choice and no one can say for certain what will happen next. That’s up to Yana, if we ever find out. I think it all boils down to this.
Whatever you believe is right in your heart, really listening ONLY to your heart and not being influenced by other people or ideas…this is true Faith. Do you have to be religious to believe in this? No. You can believe whatever is right and wrong on your own, and making the decision to be religious is a choice as well, and a different kind of Faith. Thus, deciding to read Kuroshitsuji because it conflicts with your beliefs is also a choice but consider this first: look at the series in its entirety and consider what YOU think about it first, more so than what anyone else thinks of it or you for reading it.
I hope that all made sense~ I’ve been thinking about this for a LONG time. XD
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Rosencreutz Dietrich Captain
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:15 pm
I agree with Rozen.Sorry for not posting a paragraph(love too)like you did.*Im in class right nou ;A;. Both of you have a very good point and the one who didn´t get this right;then read it again -.- Yana Toboso just wanted to give some "spice" (u can name it like that if u like) to the story by putting Sebas as a demon. :< If i got something wrong I apologize.
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:29 pm
Well, I'm firmly Atheist.
The reason Anime deals so heavily on Demons and other supernatural beings is because their culture is based around them.
That's how they explained everything that went wrong, from illness to bad weather.
Now, how my religion deals in the supernatural is we just call it a bunch of bull s**t and move on.
If science can't prove it, then it's not real. Period. That's what my 'religion' is.
I personally am intrigued by myth and legend.
But, in all honesty, I hate religion and everything about it.
I'm not trying to bash anyone's beliefs, I'm just stating my opinion.
And I swear if anyone goes all 'conversion' on me, I'm gonna be one furious Earl.
If we didn't have religion, then we'd have less to fight about.
Right and wrong is up to the individual. Nobody can ever change what anybody believes.
I think it's sick when Christians or Mormans come to my home and tell me I'm wrong and then try to get my family and I to believe in their 'God.' You don't see me going around like: "THERE IS NO GOD, LULZZ."
Case in point, to each his own.
What would the world be with out that spice of difference~?
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Rosencreutz Dietrich Captain
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:31 pm
And to each their own, but just don't let this turn into a hate war between people who are religious and those that aren't...
Back onto the topic of other animes that contain religion in general, there are TONS of them. You have series like D.Gray-Man and Angel Sanctuary, Diabolo, obviously Kuroshitsuji just to name a few. A manga-ka would be foolish to make any clear point on religion in anime, as the series would lose fans if it shifted one way or another. To me, manga is generally open minded and showcases both viewpoints, thus giving the reader a chance to make their own decisions and base opinions given their own experience. What is Yana trying to prove? Make your own opinion on that, like I said...nothing will ever be for certain. She isn't bashing religion, neither is she praising it. And by religion let me say those that deal with demons, humans, and evil in general. Japanese do not consider themselves religious for the most part. Shinto has always been a part of Japanese life, and though they believe in Kami or spirits/gods they do not consider this religion. Neither is Buddhism a true religion, more a philosophy.
Kuro contains neither of these elements. Kuroshitsuji is the story of one boy's struggle within himself, whether it is for revenge or what...he encounters evils and struggles just like everyone else and thus, to me, the series can be considered a metaphor for the life struggles everyone experiences.
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Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:50 pm
Aah... The font is so tiny on these posts, It hurts my head to read them...
I need glasses...
D ;
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Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:36 pm
I will say that I, like Rozen am a non-denominational Christian. But I have no conflicts with religion and fiction at all. I don't believe in participating in the 'religion wars' that is for extremists...whom I deeply resent because they make the rest of us look bad and unintelligent. stressed That's my rant on religion. When it comes to opinions I'm neutral, I tend to half-agree with one side and half-agree with the other. And yes, I'm also Independent. Just call me Switzerland, not at your service(or anyone else's). As far as religion in anime, I love theology. And beleive it or not I have also studied demonology. All information, and stories are useful. One's belief is decided on their own. So there is no reason to put it into everything that you watch or read unless your personal morals conflict. In which case you wouldn't be watching it in the first place. That said I love when theology is used in anime, it's one of those things that just makes me happy because I can relate it to concepts I've learned.
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Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 7:15 pm
 + --------------+
(i don't have much to say on this matter, so don't go expecting a long-a** story from me, but..) i am a christian (baptist. lawl), yes, and i love Kuroshitsuji. by now i'm so used to demons and the like in the anime/ manga world so it doesn't faze me. (i've only been brought up to despise them and consider them a work of the devil.. but i make an exception in this case so yay ^^) again, i'm not trying to convert anyone. it's not my intention. but i do agree with Rosen: to each his own. -bows politely- thank you ^^
+--------------+
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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:10 am
I believe its fine just as long as you don't start worshiping the demons. It's just for entertainment, we aren't going to go around praying to Satan just for watching a show with demons in it. Right? I myself, am a Sunni Muslim (there are different branches of Muslims; Sunni, Shi'a, Sufi, and Ahmaddiya), I have been for as long as I can remember and can think of no other way of life for me to follow. Well, I can remember that up until I was 6 my mother was Mormon while my dad was Muslim, and she didn't want my dad to teach me anything. She converted on her own will.
Being a fan does not interfere with my beliefs and isn't it natural to question religion? I'm not afraid to admit that I have, on more than one occasion, questioned the religion I've had for mostly all my life. Being a fan of Kuroshitsuji does not interfere with my religion. I've had teachers (in a Muslim summer school) that were huge fan of anime, one of them had over $200 worth of manga in her home. And my dad is a huge fan of Death Note, he's even a Kira supporter. He's starting to get into D.Gray-Man and Majin Tantei Nougami Neuro
So no, being a fan of "demonic" anime and manga has not conflicted with any of my morals. At least, not that I know of.
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