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Do you think the points are viable?
  I am Christian/Jewish and think the points are viable
  I'm not Christian/Jewish and I think the points are viable.
  I'm not Christian/Jewish, but I think the points in it are not viable
  I am Christian/Jewish and think the points aren't viable
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Falsequivalence

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:26 pm


I have been listening to the song "The Bible Is Bullshit." By Corporate Avenger, and the people in it are Christian. I think their point is viable, and the fact that their Christian kind of says something... please don't get angry at me for starting the topic. Please listen to the song first. Link- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkQx0bHtgjk
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:46 pm


I don't have the right type of flash, so youtube acts dumb for me and I had to look up the lyrics. I think it's wrong about the Bible. I believe the Bible the Word of God, and that people interpret it wrong. In any case, it's people's actions that make bad stuff happen. Books can influence, but ultimately the person's to blame.

And I really don't think they're Christians. The Bible is an authority for most, if not all Christians, so putting it down like that makes me doubt their Christianity.

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Semiremis
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:51 pm


xxEternallyBluexx
I don't have the right type of flash, so youtube acts dumb for me and I had to look up the lyrics. I think it's wrong about the Bible. I believe the Bible the Word of God, and that people interpret it wrong. In any case, it's people's actions that make bad stuff happen. Books can influence, but ultimately the person's to blame.

And I really don't think they're Christians. The Bible is an authority for most, if not all Christians, so putting it down like that makes me doubt their Christianity.


OUCH!!! It hurt my ears.

I don't like that kind of music.

The bible inspires both acts of kindness and acts of hatred, there's no need to use the bible (or any holy text for that matter) as a scapegoat when the fault lies in humans.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:03 pm


Semiremis
xxEternallyBluexx
I don't have the right type of flash, so youtube acts dumb for me and I had to look up the lyrics. I think it's wrong about the Bible. I believe the Bible the Word of God, and that people interpret it wrong. In any case, it's people's actions that make bad stuff happen. Books can influence, but ultimately the person's to blame.

And I really don't think they're Christians. The Bible is an authority for most, if not all Christians, so putting it down like that makes me doubt their Christianity.


OUCH!!! It hurt my ears.

I don't like that kind of music.

The bible inspires both acts of kindness and acts of hatred, there's no need to use the bible (or any holy text for that matter) as a scapegoat when the fault lies in humans.

3nodding except books like the satanic bible (I really think that book can cause people to do bad stuff way more then other books), and the Koran if it encourages violence and sexism like I hear it does.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:15 pm


While I may have liked the song, and the points were good, I don't think it was enough to make a good argument, however it was a song. So that it limits it a bit. I liked it though, thanks.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:48 pm


Like I've said before, I don't think anyone should take the bible 100% literally.
Most Christians I know have never read the bible and are not even aware of some of the more hateful and violent verses.
I don't have a problem with Christianity when people take it to mean to simply be Christ-like.
But that's so rarely the case.
People too often use the bible and their power in the religion for hate.

That being said, I kind of hated that song. XD
It didn't seem to bring up many valid points but more to be just loud rebellion.
Maybe it's just not my kind of music... XD

Also, I get that they're pissy with the bible, but what's their deal with the Koran and the Bhagavad Gita? XD

brainnsoup
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alteregoivy

PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:26 am


Semiremis
OUCH!!! It hurt my ears.

I don't like that kind of music.

The bible inspires both acts of kindness and acts of hatred, there's no need to use the bible (or any holy text for that matter) as a scapegoat when the fault lies in humans.


I agree. I don't care for this type of music very much. Very rarely. Though I do like that they are advocating being good to one another.

xxEternallyBluexx
3nodding except books like the satanic bible (I really think that book can cause people to do bad stuff way more then other books), and the Koran if it encourages violence and sexism like I hear it does.


Actually, at the time, the Koran was a huge step forward in women's rights. Mohammad said to limit the number of wives you had (a big change) and to only have as many wives as you can treat equitably, even if that means having only one. This was a somewhat radical concept at the time.

Of course, much of the Koran and the interpretation of it into moral code in Islam hasn't really kept up with the modern paradigm of morality, but the same can be said of the Bible and the Torah.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:37 am


I didnt like it much, for one the music, admitedly subjective but its soooo just not my thing...at all. As for the lyrics, im an M&R reg, i've heard it all a thousand times and tbh I thought it was trite and a lot the ideas nieve.

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Nines19

PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:06 pm


xxEternallyBluexx
the satanic bible (I really think that book can cause people to do bad stuff way more then other books)

I really think you should make with the supporting this statement.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:31 pm


Nines19
xxEternallyBluexx
the satanic bible (I really think that book can cause people to do bad stuff way more then other books)

I really think you should make with the supporting this statement.

Okay. First off, the book Stairway to Hell was written by a man who helps counsel kids who've gone under the influence of Satan, and how much damage it can cause. Second, the book Daniel's Story (I think it's the title, but it's been about two years since I've read it, so I'm not sure.) It's a journal by a dead boy who played with the occult. It was published by the same person who published Go Ask Alice.
And here's a few websites: http://www.zimbio.com/The+Satanic+Bible/articles/71/Confessions+Former+Satanist
www.religionnewsblog.com/22124/kendra-alysha-suing
http://www.ucgstp.org/lit/bsc/bsc5/evilinfluence.htm
http://www.therefinersfire.org/challenging_joy_of_satan.htm
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils in America/devils_music.htm
Is that enough? (And I know they may not all be relevent and factual enough. The books are better then the websites in my opinion. xp )

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:58 am


xxEternallyBluexx
Nines19
xxEternallyBluexx
the satanic bible (I really think that book can cause people to do bad stuff way more then other books)

I really think you should make with the supporting this statement.

Okay. First off, the book Stairway to Hell was written by a man who helps counsel kids who've gone under the influence of Satan, and how much damage it can cause.


What's the relevance of that to the Satanic Bible?

Quote:
Second, the book Daniel's Story (I think it's the title, but it's been about two years since I've read it, so I'm not sure.) It's a journal by a dead boy who played with the occult. It was published by the same person who published Go Ask Alice.


Was he using the Satanic Bible as inspiration?
I ask because there are Christian Ceremonial groups who don't seem to have much trouble with the idea of the occult. I mean, look at Newton. Total Christian. Did the whole alchemist deal in later life.

At any rate, that's one individual. What you need to prove is that the Satanic Bible, more than other books, not only inspires but causes people to do bad stuff.

Quote:
And here's a few websites: http://www.zimbio.com/The+Satanic+Bible/articles/71/Confessions+Former+Satanist


This article is unrelated to the Satanic Bible. At least the one I know of.
How many Satanic Bibles are there, and which one are you referring to?

Quote:
www.religionnewsblog.com/22124/kendra-alysha-suing


This one says:

Quote:
High Priest of the Church of Satan says the crimes that Harris is accused of are in no way consistent with the teachings, beliefs or practices of his church.


....and those teachings would be in the Satanic Bible, ne?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:58 pm


if you're not trying to be an a**, don't use an Asswipe biased poll.

Lumanny the Space Jew

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xxEverBluexx

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:09 pm


Sanguina Cruenta
xxEternallyBluexx
Nines19
xxEternallyBluexx
the satanic bible (I really think that book can cause people to do bad stuff way more then other books)

I really think you should make with the supporting this statement.

Okay. First off, the book Stairway to Hell was written by a man who helps counsel kids who've gone under the influence of Satan, and how much damage it can cause.


What's the relevance of that to the Satanic Bible?

Quote:
Second, the book Daniel's Story (I think it's the title, but it's been about two years since I've read it, so I'm not sure.) It's a journal by a dead boy who played with the occult. It was published by the same person who published Go Ask Alice.


Was he using the Satanic Bible as inspiration?
I ask because there are Christian Ceremonial groups who don't seem to have much trouble with the idea of the occult. I mean, look at Newton. Total Christian. Did the whole alchemist deal in later life.

At any rate, that's one individual. What you need to prove is that the Satanic Bible, more than other books, not only inspires but causes people to do bad stuff.

Quote:
And here's a few websites: http://www.zimbio.com/The+Satanic+Bible/articles/71/Confessions+Former+Satanist


This article is unrelated to the Satanic Bible. At least the one I know of.
How many Satanic Bibles are there, and which one are you referring to?

Quote:
www.religionnewsblog.com/22124/kendra-alysha-suing


This one says:

Quote:
High Priest of the Church of Satan says the crimes that Harris is accused of are in no way consistent with the teachings, beliefs or practices of his church.


....and those teachings would be in the Satanic Bible, ne?

The relevence is of the same sort as if you were to look at a Christian. You have to look at the power behind the book.

Again, same point as before. And it's hard to get non-testimonial stuff. It's hard to do studies on it.

I wasn't refering to a specific one. (Sorry sweatdrop I'm not an expert on the subject, so I can't get that specific on it) When I do see stuff relating to satan, including to his bible, it almost always confirms it's a bad thing. Perhaps I should do more research on a subject before I use it as an example, but that's not always possible, and I do sometimes forget that what I regard as evil isn't a general opinion.

It still reflects on the church. Plus there's other things done by satanic cults. A friend of mine read a book about a girl whose mother was a satanist. Children were sacrificed, and they put her in a cage.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:00 pm


xxEternallyBluexx
The relevence is of the same sort as if you were to look at a Christian. You have to look at the power behind the book.


The Satanic Bible is, if anything, self-empowering. It has to do with personal power. There are plenty of self-help books on empowering oneself and on personal strength. Would these also be as much to blame?

Quote:
Again, same point as before. And it's hard to get non-testimonial stuff. It's hard to do studies on it.


The problem is largely that people lie. A lot. For attention. There's a whole HEAP of Satanic Panic stuff and very very little of it has anything to do with Satan, let alone Satanism. You get "I used to be a Wiccan, I worshipped Satan and killed babies" stuff too. It's absolute bollocks. (Not that a Wiccan couldn't kill babies, just that they wouldn't do it within Wiccan ritual because it's not a part of the orthopraxy.)

People tell lies. Often they do it to reinforce the value of their church ("I was saved from Satan") or something, as if a church or religion needed that sort of thing. Because of the amount of bollocks on the subject I won't accept a personal testimonial as any sort of source. The Satanic Panic stuff made the papers a couple decades ago. It was considered legit. It's not anymore. So I'd want something fairly authentic and non-testimonial as a source.

Quote:
I wasn't refering to a specific one. (Sorry sweatdrop I'm not an expert on the subject, so I can't get that specific on it) When I do see stuff relating to satan, including to his bible, it almost always confirms it's a bad thing. Perhaps I should do more research on a subject before I use it as an example, but that's not always possible, and I do sometimes forget that what I regard as evil isn't a general opinion.


Ah, see, this is the rub, right here. The Satanic Bible, at least, the most popular and common Satanic Bible, is by Anton Lavey. Satan is considered sort of a figurehead, not a real entity. He symbolises indulgence, embracing one's humanity, and personal strength. He is the antithesis of the parts of Christianity they consider worthy of dislike. The Satanic Bible stresses questioning, thinking for oneself, personal responsibility, respect of those who give you respect in return, etc.

It's a bit... dangerous to automatically assume everything with the word "Satan" in it is evil by default. I understand your reasons for doing so, and what he represents to you. However, the name has been used in different ways, and in this situation, the Satanists involved will not harm anyone unless given a very good reason to do so. No doubt there are many elements of the religion that you personally disagree with, but that in itself doesn't make something evil. At least, not in my opinion wink

No doubt there are other Satanic Bibles. The one most are referring to when they use the term is that of LaVey. The basic ideas of Satanism, and the Church of Satan, as defined by LaVey, can be summed up in a general sort of way by the Nine Satanic Statements, the Rules of Earth, and the Satanic Sins.

From the Church of Satan website (all are copyright Anton Szandor LaVey):

Nine Satanic Statements
1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!

2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!

3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!

4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!

5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!

6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!

7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!

8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!

9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!



Satanic Rules of Earth
1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.

2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.

3. When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.

4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.

5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.

6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.

7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.

9. Do not harm little children.

10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.

11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.


Satanic Sins
1. Stupidity—The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. It’s too bad that stupidity isn’t painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid.

2. Pretentiousness—Empty posturing can be most irritating and isn’t applying the cardinal rules of Lesser Magic. On equal footing with stupidity for what keeps the money in circulation these days. Everyone’s made to feel like a big shot, whether they can come up with the goods or not.

3. Solipsism—Can be very dangerous for Satanists. Projecting your reactions, responses and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They won’t. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of “Do unto others as they do unto you.” It’s work for most of us and requires constant vigilance lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point.

4. Self-deceit—It’s in the “Nine Satanic Statements” but deserves to be repeated here. Another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when it’s fun, and with awareness. But then, it’s not self-deceit!

5. Herd Conformity—That’s obvious from a Satanic stance. It’s all right to conform to a person’s wishes, if it ultimately benefits you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely instead of being enslaved by the whims of the many.

6. Lack of Perspective—Again, this one can lead to a lot of pain for a Satanist. You must never lose sight of who and what you are, and what a threat you can be, by your very existence. We are making history right now, every day. Always keep the wider historical and social picture in mind. That is an important key to both Lesser and Greater Magic. See the patterns and fit things together as you want the pieces to fall into place. Do not be swayed by herd constraints—know that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world.

7. Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies—Be aware that this is one of the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something new and different, when in reality it’s something that was once widely accepted but is now presented in a new package. We are expected to rave about the genius of the creator and forget the original. This makes for a disposable society.

8. Counterproductive Pride—That first word is important. Pride is great up to the point you begin to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The rule of Satanism is: if it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when you’ve painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, I’m sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow, then do it.

9. Lack of Aesthetics—This is the physical application of the Balance Factor. Aesthetics is important in Lesser Magic and should be cultivated. It is obvious that no one can collect any money off classical standards of beauty and form most of the time so they are discouraged in a consumer society, but an eye for beauty, for balance, is an essential Satanic tool and must be applied for greatest magical effectiveness. It’s not what’s supposed to be pleasing—it’s what is. Aesthetics is a personal thing, reflective of one’s own nature, but there are universally pleasing and harmonious configurations that should not be denied.

Sanguina Cruenta
Crew

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klamation

PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:19 pm


Broken_Penguin_Man
I have been listening to the song "The Bible Is Bullshit." By Corporate Avenger, and the people in it are Christian. I think their point is viable, and the fact that their Christian kind of says something... please don't get angry at me for starting the topic. Please listen to the song first. Link- ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkQx0bHtgjk


I don't think anyone would get mad at you for starting the topic, although discussing a topic by saying "listen to this song" isn't very useful. I couldn't handle more than a second or two of the heavy beat, so rather like getting in an argument with someone who likes to insult his opponent, I didn't find it a very good start to a discussion.

If we can get a link to the lyrics, or even post them here, it might be easier...
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