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 Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:33 pm
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If so, please read this urgent message:
Today, Congress is back in session and although they are focusing on economic bills right now, eventually they will get to voting on the Freedom of Choice Act, a.k.a. FOCA. At first glance, FOCA looks like Roe vs. Wade the sequel. However, this pro-abortion bill has an agenda even more sinister than Roe vs. Wade. The information about to be disclosed is information they won't tell you in the fine print. Here is what would happen if this bill passes:
The Freedom of Choice Act (FOCA) would eliminate every restriction on abortion nationwide.
FOCA will do away with state laws on parental involvement, on partial birth abortion, and on all other protections.
FOCA will compel taxpayer funding of abortions.
FOCA will force faith-based hospitals and healthcare facilities to perform abortions.
Unfortunately, there's more:
This would eradicate state and federal laws that the majority of Americans support, such as:
Bans on Partial Birth Abortion
Requirements that women be given information about the risks of getting an abortion
Only licensed physicians can perform abortions
Parents must be informed and give consent to their minor daughter's abortion
FOCA would erase these laws and prevent states from enacting similar protective measures in the future.
Basically, it would hold pro-lifers and religious American (Catholic, Christian, Jewish, etc) hostage to a radical agenda and because religious hospitals would be sued if they refuse a woman an abortion on demand, they would shut down to avoid a lawsuit, let alone performing an abortion. Pro-life organizations such as the Right To Life Commitee, the AUL, etc. would be in trouble, as well. But there is a way to fight FOCA. There is a website called www.fightfoca.com and on it, you can sign a petition against FOCA. You still have time to do it because the FightFOCA petition will be sent to Congress soon. There is no age limit. Just scroll to the bottom of the site and you will see a box where you have to sign your first and last name, your email, etc. So far, the petition has 476,780 signatures and the numbers just keep growing. If you want to save the babies or if you're someone who believes in true freedom and that no one should be forced to compromise their beliefs, go to www.fightfoca.com TODAY and please, please, PLEASE with cherry on top, sign the petition! The babies and Jesus will thank you!
God bless!
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Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:15 pm
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Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:46 pm
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Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:12 pm
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Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:28 pm
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Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:49 pm
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Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:51 pm
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Aquiella I have a link that will explain that question. http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/FocusOnTheFamilyDailyBroadcast/~5/518677638/ffd_20090121.mp3 EDIT: Just click OPEN when the dialog box shows up. The last half is important to listen to. It explains the differences between a newborn and a fetus. It explains why Pro-lifers believe what they do. It SHOULD answer your questions. If you don't listen to it though, you have no right to continue in this conversation. ^w^ v If you have any questions about the clip, lemme know; politely please!!! |
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Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:09 am
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Dark Angel Rai ShideKnight I was gonna post something else, but... I really don't understand... what's up with this whole 'single celled organism' thing? How can people really see a child as just that? I always thought the worth of human life and new life was obvious from the start. What makes people change their mind? Is it just a desire for absolute control? Okay. My original comment -- a much more effective way to prevent abortions would be if people decided to engage the community, provide services and help, volunteer, etc, than any law could possibly be. People need to be brought to a better understanding about responsibility and love, I think. Not that I'm against laws as a whole, it's just that a law can be broken; a conviction is harder to get around. Because that's what a fetus is starting out. A single celled organism.
But where does the utter detachment and uncaring attitude about the whole deal come from? |
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Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:44 am
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ShideKnight Dark Angel Rai ShideKnight I was gonna post something else, but... I really don't understand... what's up with this whole 'single celled organism' thing? How can people really see a child as just that? I always thought the worth of human life and new life was obvious from the start. What makes people change their mind? Is it just a desire for absolute control? Okay. My original comment -- a much more effective way to prevent abortions would be if people decided to engage the community, provide services and help, volunteer, etc, than any law could possibly be. People need to be brought to a better understanding about responsibility and love, I think. Not that I'm against laws as a whole, it's just that a law can be broken; a conviction is harder to get around. Because that's what a fetus is starting out. A single celled organism. But where does the utter detachment and uncaring attitude about the whole deal come from?
The true definition of a baby is when a full formed child (fully formed being the keyword) comes out from the birth canal, out into this world. Taking it's first breath of air and breathing on it's own. That's a child. That is a baby. If I were to dunk your head in a swimming pool, would you be able to breathe O2? Prolly not. In fact you would prolly lose oxygen. Humans don't have gills. So it's impossible for us to breathe underwater.
Now, even with the advance of medical technology, child birth can still be dangerous to a woman's life. Something can go wrong in the pregnancy and threaten the mother's life. There are woman that do die of child birth. Though the numbers are less now than what it was say in 1836. Now you have to take into consideration the mother's life as well. Doesn't she have the right to live too? Why should she endanger her life to birth a baby? Why should she have to die? Shouldn't she also be allowed the right to live? Or does that only apply to fetus' and not fully formed human beings?
With rape, it's a tricky case, because the rape victim suffers a lot of trauma. I know you'll prolly say but the child is not responsible for the rapist's mistakes. But you prolly think that because you don't know the thought process of the victim. Rape is serious and often goes unreported. Why? Because the victims that are raped are afraid that the attacker might come and attack them again or kill them. That fear is there if the victim is found to be pregnant. PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) is a serious psychological disorder. It can be caused by a very traumatic event, war, natural disasters, rape, terrorist attacks, etc. The victim is not at the right state of mind when she makes the decision to abort. Again you'll prolly think Hey. That child is in no way shape or form responsible for getting raped. She should've done xyz. The point of the matter is, stranger rape is less likely. The people who do get raped are by people they know. Whether it's a family friend, boyfriend, or a relative. You can't say oh well she shouldn't have dressed like a slut, because that isn't likely. The reason why people are raped, is for power. Control. It makes people feel like they have power and are in control of people. Sick right? Yeah. It is sick that humanity has this capacity. Now the way I see it, Death is an escape. It is not a punishment in any way shape of form nor should it be looked as such. Death is apart of life regardless of how you look at it. What the mother does with her child may seem horrid. But really, death is the best option for the child. Think about it. If you were raped and were with the rapist's child, how would you be able to tell that child once it became a teenager that it was a child of rape? Could you even do it? How would the child feel? Would knowing that it's a child of rape cause psychological problems like depression? Would the child seek to kill itself? How would you feel knowing that you were a child of rape? I know I would be depressed and would ask why not abort me. All I have caused you is unnecessary trauma. In one case I read, a woman who was raped, couldn't even touch her husband after she was raped. Couldn't look at him or her children. Because of the rape. Think about that. How would you cope if you couldn't hold your kids or your husband? Wouldn't that drive you nuts?
Now here's what gets me about pro-lifers. If you are for life, shouldn't you be anti-war and anti-death penalty. Not pro-war and pro-death penalty. Because doesn't everyone deserve the right to live? Death Penalty is not a penalty but giving convicts an escape. And regardless of the cause, killing people oversees in a war, is still wrong. I'm sorry. It's really wrong. Also. If you are pro-life, have you adopted any of the fetuses you've saved? Are you going to adopt? If the answer to both is no, then why? Are you going to adopt here or oversees? If you're going to adopt oversees? Why?
Now, choice is a principle that our country is based on. If you go against this principle and take it away then you are making us no better than the USSR. You are no better than a communist. By taking away abortion, you are bringing back a) orpanages and b) back door abortions which are more dangerous than medical abortions. Do you want our country to become like China or India, where we have more people than what our carrying capacity allows us to have, wasting our resources even more, and soon becoming a third world country instead of the industrialized country we've become? I know but overpopulation isn't possible right? Have you been to India or seen India before? Look up India's population size and compare it to the US and tell me overpopulation isn't possible. Now add China and India's population size together. Now if the US ever got to the size of both China and India then we have serious problems don't you think.
But seeing as how I'm an American. I'm pro-choice. Not pro-abortion. I only agree on abortion when it comes to rape or if the mother's life is in danger. But I'm not going to sit here and say what the mother is doing is wrong and that she'll go to hell. Why? Because I'm not God. I'm not the one to judge her for her decision. That's between her and God. Not only that but judging goes against the Bible. Read Matthew 7:1-2 and then tell me if you think it's still right to say what is right and what is wrong. biggrin
/rant. |
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Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:21 am
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Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:53 am
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divineseraph Dark Angel Rai So you would take away the right to choose to do whatever we want to save a single celled organism? That's really...smart? Also if it turns out that fetus is gay, would you still fight for it's rights? Feti are not single-celled. You may want to try biology. And yes, absolutely. Also, I am anti-war and largely anti-death penalty. (Depending on the situation- Folks like Dahmer and Bundy types are probably better off being killed.)
And if Dahmer and Bundy really wanted to die, they could easily take a cord or rope and hang themselves. Or start a fight with other prisoners. |
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Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:21 pm
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Dark Angel Rai It's not uncaring attitude. Do you care about the rights of the millions of bacteria living on your body? Everytime you wash your hands and body, you kill innocent bacteria. They have as much right to life as a fetus. Sound silly? That's because it is.
It is uncaring. It's uncaring in the same sense that slavery in America was uncaring, the inquisition was uncaring, and Nazi Germany was uncaring.
I know, people get worked up about that argument, but it's true - this argument is one over human rights, which all three of the situations above violated.
It's over human rights because one side asserts that a child has human rights from conception, while the other does not.
Dark Angel Rai The true definition of a baby is when a full formed child (fully formed being the keyword) comes out from the birth canal, out into this world. Taking it's first breath of air and breathing on it's own. That's a child. That is a baby. If I were to dunk your head in a swimming pool, would you be able to breathe O2? Prolly not. In fact you would prolly lose oxygen. Humans don't have gills. So it's impossible for us to breathe underwater.
It's semantics, really. Baby, fetus, child, whatever - it's still referring to a member of the next generation.
Dark Angel Rai Now, even with the advance of medical technology, child birth can still be dangerous to a woman's life. Something can go wrong in the pregnancy and threaten the mother's life. There are woman that do die of child birth. Though the numbers are less now than what it was say in 1836. Now you have to take into consideration the mother's life as well. Doesn't she have the right to live too? Why should she endanger her life to birth a baby? Why should she have to die? Shouldn't she also be allowed the right to live? Or does that only apply to fetus' and not fully formed human beings?
Look, cases where it's a medical risk for the mother are a different thing, don't you think? What really gets me about abortion is that the majority of them don't need to happen... right?
Dark Angel Rai With rape, it's a tricky case, because the rape victim suffers a lot of trauma. I know you'll prolly say but the child is not responsible for the rapist's mistakes. But you prolly think that because you don't know the thought process of the victim. Rape is serious and often goes unreported. Why? Because the victims that are raped are afraid that the attacker might come and attack them again or kill them. That fear is there if the victim is found to be pregnant. PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) is a serious psychological disorder. It can be caused by a very traumatic event, war, natural disasters, rape, terrorist attacks, etc. The victim is not at the right state of mind when she makes the decision to abort. Again you'll prolly think Hey. That child is in no way shape or form responsible for getting raped. She should've done xyz. The point of the matter is, stranger rape is less likely. The people who do get raped are by people they know. Whether it's a family friend, boyfriend, or a relative. You can't say oh well she shouldn't have dressed like a slut, because that isn't likely. The reason why people are raped, is for power. Control. It makes people feel like they have power and are in control of people. Sick right? Yeah. It is sick that humanity has this capacity.
Doesn't this fall into special cases again? But yes, when it comes down to it I don't really think that we as men and women have a right to say which child is more important than another.
Sigh... really, this is the kind of problem to which there are only long term solutions. Remember I spoke about engaging the community, being loving and responsible, etc?
Dark Angel Rai Now the way I see it, Death is an escape. It is not a punishment in any way shape of form nor should it be looked as such. Death is apart of life regardless of how you look at it. What the mother does with her child may seem horrid. But really, death is the best option for the child. Think about it. If you were raped and were with the rapist's child, how would you be able to tell that child once it became a teenager that it was a child of rape? Could you even do it? How would the child feel? Would knowing that it's a child of rape cause psychological problems like depression? Would the child seek to kill itself? How would you feel knowing that you were a child of rape? I know I would be depressed and would ask why not abort me. All I have caused you is unnecessary trauma. In one case I read, a woman who was raped, couldn't even touch her husband after she was raped. Couldn't look at him or her children. Because of the rape. Think about that. How would you cope if you couldn't hold your kids or your husband? Wouldn't that drive you nuts?
I am convinced from my life that love and forgiveness can overcome any problem.
But also, it sounds to me like it could go both ways. Can't a mother simply love her children? Certainly it depends on circumstance and the people that the mother associates with, but that's where that whole responsibility thing comes in again.
You know, I read in a book that living after the Fall is like living in the aftermath of atomic war... the analogy sounds right to me. I imagine it would be the same being a rape survivor.
But really, how do you know how a child would feel knowing that?
Dark Angel Rai Now here's what gets me about pro-lifers. If you are for life, shouldn't you be anti-war and anti-death penalty. Not pro-war and pro-death penalty. Because doesn't everyone deserve the right to live? Death Penalty is not a penalty but giving convicts an escape. And regardless of the cause, killing people oversees in a war, is still wrong. I'm sorry. It's really wrong. Also. If you are pro-life, have you adopted any of the fetuses you've saved? Are you going to adopt? If the answer to both is no, then why? Are you going to adopt here or oversees? If you're going to adopt oversees? Why?
I don't think that pointing out hypocrisy in what the other side believes makes their arguments invalid.
Regardless of what I believe, I bet your right with what your saying here. That doesn't mean that our position that human rights are granted at conception is invalid.
Dark Angel Rai Now, choice is a principle that our country is based on. If you go against this principle and take it away then you are making us no better than the USSR. You are no better than a communist. By taking away abortion, you are bringing back a) orpanages and b) back door abortions which are more dangerous than medical abortions. Do you want our country to become like China or India, where we have more people than what our carrying capacity allows us to have, wasting our resources even more, and soon becoming a third world country instead of the industrialized country we've become?
No better than the USSR? Please... maybe a bit of an argument could be made for that someday, but not on the abortion case.
Personally I wish people would just learn better. Remember what I said about convictions and laws earlier?
I've thought about it before, and here are some things that we could change in our country to help alleviate the problem:
- Abstinence in most cases
- Better contraceptive/people actually remembering to use it stare
- People being ready to marry younger again (that is, more good jobs that you can go into without a degree, being sufficiently mature after or during High School)
- Community actually being community again
- Charity programs to assist where they're needed
I mean, seriously. Any law about this kind of thing is going to be a stopgap.
Dark Angel Rai But seeing as how I'm an American. I'm pro-choice. Not pro-abortion. I only agree on abortion when it comes to rape or if the mother's life is in danger. But I'm not going to sit here and say what the mother is doing is wrong and that she'll go to hell. Why? Because I'm not God. I'm not the one to judge her for her decision. That's between her and God. Not only that but judging goes against the Bible. Read Matthew 7:1-2 and then tell me if you think it's still right to say what is right and what is wrong. biggrin /rant.
Not pro-abortion, but a lot of what has been said above comes across as having just that very standpoint. Especially that whole single celled thing? Yeah.
You can be pro-choice for the reasons you've given in this paragraph and not degrade the human rights of the unborn, you know?
As far as judging - we are suppost to follow Jesus' example, and Jesus always said if he thought something was wrong.
Look, that whole 'your going to Hell' line is just bad, but aside from that....
Rai, I like you, I really respect you... but to say that calling out wrong when you see wrong is unbiblical is just wrong.
We as Christians are suppost to be examples, and we can't be good examples if we don't call wrong what it is.
Moreover, Christianity is first about respect and love for God and your people. Thus the human rights of the unborn. It isn't explicitly stated in the bible, but the pro-life idea is very well supported by Christianity. |
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Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:27 pm
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Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:04 pm
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Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:37 pm
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Dark Angel Rai So you would dare take away God's gift of choice to save a single celled orgainsm? (So it's uncaring to use technical terms? Wow. That's really intelligent.)You would dare say "Sorry God, but I repeal to give the women of my country the right to choose because I would rather care for a fetus than ensure the rights of both fully formed children and mothers" to God? This is a democracy. Not a theocracy. You may go somewhere else for a theocracy. biggrin Alright. Maybe your not using it in that way, but the majority of pro-choice people that I have seen arguing the point have used the fact that the child isn't born yet to say the child does not have right. Also, I don't see where the rights of fully formed children and mothers comes into it? Save maybe the whole choice thing? The point that I was mostly trying to make about it to you is that you don't have to assert that unborn children have no rights to warrant medical abortions, and possibly other cases, but denying human rights to the unborn is denying human rights, and ethically it's very dangerous ground. Especially for people who try to be loving people. Personally I am kind of inclined to view a woman deciding to carry through with a pregnancy that's harmful to her as a sort of martyrdom. Choosing to die for values. Also. Abstinence doesn't work. It's been proven it doesn't work. The Teenage pregnancy rate is high. Handing out condoms and birth control do help. (Just telling someone no is only going to make them curious. Do not tempt the minds of teenagers. The mind is a dangerous thing. Even my mind is dangerous)
Well, thus the other social changes that I mentioned also. The impression that I've gotten is that most people view sex as just pure fun, which I don't think is right. Clearly it has other functions, some of which are obvious, some of which are not so obvious. Discipline is important, but it is also important to be able to enjoy things like sex in a context that is healthy and right.
As for just telling them no - obviously that's not going to work, but from my own experience as a teenager, if you reason it out and think it over, you can clearly come to the decision that it's not a good idea to be so free and easy. Obviously the opinions of society at large have to be changed. |
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