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kaito_adrian_shigure

PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:26 pm


How and when should I use them?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:10 pm


I alway thought this was something that needed to be stressed when learning the language, so I'll offer a brief insight into how honorifics function within Japanese society.

Honorifics(or lack thereof) are an integral part of their everyday interactions and are typically a note of how much one respects the person or is close to them. Note that they can also be used when referring to a specific kind of shop worker(like butchers, officers and so on) or even companies, and are normally not used when referring to yourself.

*nothing*

Usually indicates the person feels incredibly close to the one involved. Not to be used unless the one you're speaking of is someone very near and dear to your heart.

-chan

A diminutive Honorific, usually infers a more casual relationship, similar to giving your of your friends a nickname, or your lover a pet name(which is usually how they are rendered as, when translated to English, IE Ryu-chan becoming Feenie in the English translation of Gyakutan Saiban/Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney). Also can be an actual pet name when the name of someone or something is shortened, with -chan attached to it(IE Ryuichi=Ryu-chan)

-tan

The childish mispronunciation of -chan & is regarded even as more diminutive and cute(an important part of the Kawaii aspect of Japanese culture).

-kun

Normally a male specific variant of -chan, but it can also be seen given to women on occasion.

-san


Equivalent, respect wise, to Mr, Ms or Mrs in the English language. The most used when referring to a specific kind of worker or a company. Considered diminutive/childlike when used to refer to animals, and in this context, not proper in most social settings.

-senpai

Used when acknowledging someone as your senior, mentor or a general professional in their field.

-kouhai

Used when someone is addressed as a junior, and is often seen as condescending by the person being spoken to.

-sensei

More commonly used to refer to professionals(such as doctors, mechanics, etc), and is also how one would refer to an instructor in Japanese martial arts.

-sama

A more formal version of -san and is most often used when regarding someone with great respect or reverence. Someone who uses this to refer to themself is normally seen as incredibly arrogant.

-tama

A childish mispronunciation of -sama(as -tan is to -chan), often used solely by children, or someone attempting to affect a childlike charm.

-shi

Much like -san, but often seen only in either very formal documents, or used by very formal people, when speaking with someone they've met for the very first time.

(more to come, after further study. If you're not interested in waiting 'til then, look here)

Koiyuki
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-okonomiyaki o konomu-

PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:31 pm


Honorifics (keigo) go beyond titles attached to the ends of people's names. It also includes verb changes and o- and go- nouns and such.

I'm not going to go into it though. Personally, I think the worst way to learn keigo is all at once. My textbooks introduced keigo in a very staggered way, which made it extremely easier to digest (Japanese: The Spoken Language by Eleanor Harz Jorden). A word or verb form got introduced every now and then in the context of conversations.

Other textbooks will present keigo in such a way to make it far more intimidating than it needs to be. They'll give you a list of what to substitute for what and give some examples of when. It makes it very hard to naturally integrate it into your speech.

So, my point is, find a book that teaches you keigo gradually and in context. In my experience, Japanese: The Spoken Language is probably the best series of books for learning keigo (one of the criticisms of the books is they do tend to focus on formal speaking moreso than casual. Personally I don't think this is a fault at all, seeing as formal speech is more useful when participating as a member of Japanese society, and when it comes to keigo especially, it's a very good quality). I never once found keigo difficult or intimidating with those books.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:23 am


-okonomiyaki o konomu-
Honorifics (keigo) go beyond titles attached to the ends of people's names. It also includes verb changes and o- and go- nouns and such.

I'm not going to go into it though. Personally, I think the worst way to learn keigo is all at once. My textbooks introduced keigo in a very staggered way, which made it extremely easier to digest (Japanese: The Spoken Language by Eleanor Harz Jorden). A word or verb form got introduced every now and then in the context of conversations.

Other textbooks will present keigo in such a way to make it far more intimidating than it needs to be. They'll give you a list of what to substitute for what and give some examples of when. It makes it very hard to naturally integrate it into your speech.

So, my point is, find a book that teaches you keigo gradually and in context. In my experience, Japanese: The Spoken Language is probably the best series of books for learning keigo (one of the criticisms of the books is they do tend to focus on formal speaking moreso than casual. Personally I don't think this is a fault at all, seeing as formal speech is more useful when participating as a member of Japanese society, and when it comes to keigo especially, it's a very good quality). I never once found keigo difficult or intimidating with those books.
That's a very good point, ma'am, and that can be said of a lot of learning. Self teaching is much like carrying water from one point to another: if you try to take it all at once, you're bound to spill much of it along the way. Taking it piece by piece ensures you get all that you need and never lose a drop of the knowledge you so seek.

Koiyuki
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--Amada15--

PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:30 pm


eek wow u crew member know wat u are talking about. 3nodding 3nodding are u guys asian or did u study all of that japanese in college? whee whee
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:09 pm


Thanks guys, I've been hedged on how to use em properly, and now I know. But according to some people Iknow I think there are honorifics based on ummm accent/dialect right???

kaito_adrian_shigure


Koiyuki
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:34 pm


kaitoshigure
Thanks guys, I've been hedged on how to use em properly, and now I know. But according to some people Iknow I think there are honorifics based on ummm accent/dialect right???


That is also another variable. In the Kansai region, -san is usually pronounced as -han. And of course there're also suffixes based on profession, and whathaveyou
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:44 pm


kaitoshigure
Thanks guys, I've been hedged on how to use em properly, and now I know. But according to some people Iknow I think there are honorifics based on ummm accent/dialect right???

Kansai-ben has its own honorific form that involves putting "haru" on a verb. For example, "kudasaru" (the honorific form of "kureru") would be "kureharu" (kureru + haru). How it's conjugated depends on the specific location in Kansai. Apparently Osaka puts it on the -masu stem of a verb (kakiharu for kaku + haru), where as Kyoto puts it the -nai stem (kakaharu for kaku + haru).

I'm not sure how often honorifics come up in other dialects. But speakers of any dialect still use the standard dialect for polite speech the vast majority of the time.

-okonomiyaki o konomu-


kaito_adrian_shigure

PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:07 pm


I see, so honorifics change in some dialects or has additions to it. Am I correct?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:53 am


kaitoshigure
I see, so honorifics change in some dialects or has additions to it. Am I correct?

For the most part no. Like I said, they use standard Japanese for polite speech the majority of the time. Like Kansai-ben uses "ya" for "da" but they still use "desu" when they're being more polite. Even though they have "haru" from what I understand it's slightly less formal than other honorifics.

-okonomiyaki o konomu-


kaito_adrian_shigure

PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:24 pm


-okonomiyaki o konomu-
kaitoshigure
I see, so honorifics change in some dialects or has additions to it. Am I correct?

For the most part no. Like I said, they use standard Japanese for polite speech the majority of the time. Like Kansai-ben uses "ya" for "da" but they still use "desu" when they're being more polite. Even though they have "haru" from what I understand it's slightly less formal than other honorifics.


"Desu"? I though that was a kawaii word....
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:23 am


kaitoshigure
-okonomiyaki o konomu-
kaitoshigure
I see, so honorifics change in some dialects or has additions to it. Am I correct?

For the most part no. Like I said, they use standard Japanese for polite speech the majority of the time. Like Kansai-ben uses "ya" for "da" but they still use "desu" when they're being more polite. Even though they have "haru" from what I understand it's slightly less formal than other honorifics.


"Desu"? I though that was a kawaii word....

No, that is a form of the copula that you use when you're speaking in a more formal, but not super-polite, way.

For example:
"Kore?" "Un, sore da" ("This?" "Yeah, that")
"Kore desu ka?" "Ee, sore desu" ("This?" "Yes, that")

Both pairs of sentences mean the same thing, but the first pair is between two people who are familiar with each other, like friends, family, etc. The second one is more formal, so it's likely the two don't know each other well, or at least don't have a very close relationship, such as colleagues, strangers, acquaintances, etc.

-okonomiyaki o konomu-


mazuac

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:12 pm


Koiyuki
I alway thought this was something that needed to be stressed when learning the language, so I'll offer a brief insight into how honorifics function within Japanese society.

Honorifics(or lack thereof) are an integral part of their everyday interactions and are typically a note of how much one respects the person or is close to them. Note that they can also be used when referring to a specific kind of shop worker(like butchers, officers and so on) or even companies, and are normally not used when referring to yourself.

*nothing*

Usually indicates the person feels incredibly close to the one involved. Not to be used unless the one you're speaking of is someone very near and dear to your heart.

-chan

A diminutive Honorific, usually infers a more casual relationship, similar to giving your of your friends a nickname, or your lover a pet name(which is usually how they are rendered as, when translated to English, IE Ryu-chan becoming Feenie in the English translation of Gyakutan Saiban/Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney). Also can be an actual pet name when the name of someone or something is shortened, with -chan attached to it(IE Ryuichi=Ryu-chan)

-tan

The childish mispronunciation of -chan & is regarded even as more diminutive and cute(an important part of the Kawaii aspect of Japanese culture).

-kun

Normally a male specific variant of -chan, but it can also be seen given to women on occasion.

-san


Equivalent, respect wise, to Mr, Ms or Mrs in the English language. The most used when referring to a specific kind of worker or a company. Considered diminutive/childlike when used to refer to animals, and in this context, not proper in most social settings.

-senpai

Used when acknowledging someone as your senior, mentor or a general professional in their field.

-kouhai

Used when someone is addressed as a junior, and is often seen as condescending by the person being spoken to.

-sensei

More commonly used to refer to professionals(such as doctors, mechanics, etc), and is also how one would refer to an instructor in Japanese martial arts.

-sama

A more formal version of -san and is most often used when regarding someone with great respect or reverence. Someone who uses this to refer to themself is normally seen as incredibly arrogant.

-tama

A childish mispronunciation of -sama(as -tan is to -chan), often used solely by children, or someone attempting to affect a childlike charm.

-shi

Much like -san, but often seen only in either very formal documents, or used by very formal people, when speaking with someone they've met for the very first time.

(more to come, after further study. If you're not interested in waiting 'til then, look here)
When will we learn....

when every fish is ate, when every tree is chopped down, when every animal is killed...








Oprah-sama atsui desu yo! RAwr! XD Heh, just messing with you!That money is not edible....
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:40 pm


-okonomiyaki o konomu-
kaitoshigure
-okonomiyaki o konomu-
kaitoshigure
I see, so honorifics change in some dialects or has additions to it. Am I correct?

For the most part no. Like I said, they use standard Japanese for polite speech the majority of the time. Like Kansai-ben uses "ya" for "da" but they still use "desu" when they're being more polite. Even though they have "haru" from what I understand it's slightly less formal than other honorifics.


"Desu"? I though that was a kawaii word....

No, that is a form of the copula that you use when you're speaking in a more formal, but not super-polite, way.

For example:
"Kore?" "Un, sore da" ("This?" "Yeah, that")
"Kore desu ka?" "Ee, sore desu" ("This?" "Yes, that")

Both pairs of sentences mean the same thing, but the first pair is between two people who are familiar with each other, like friends, family, etc. The second one is more formal, so it's likely the two don't know each other well, or at least don't have a very close relationship, such as colleagues, strangers, acquaintances, etc.


Oh thanks, that clears that....

Ummm... I have another question, about boku and watashi and the such...

kaito_adrian_shigure


Koiyuki
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:58 am


kaitoshigure
-okonomiyaki o konomu-
kaitoshigure
-okonomiyaki o konomu-
kaitoshigure
I see, so honorifics change in some dialects or has additions to it. Am I correct?

For the most part no. Like I said, they use standard Japanese for polite speech the majority of the time. Like Kansai-ben uses "ya" for "da" but they still use "desu" when they're being more polite. Even though they have "haru" from what I understand it's slightly less formal than other honorifics.

"Desu"? I though that was a kawaii word....

No, that is a form of the copula that you use when you're speaking in a more formal, but not super-polite, way.
For example:
"Kore?" "Un, sore da" ("This?" "Yeah, that")
"Kore desu ka?" "Ee, sore desu" ("This?" "Yes, that")
Both pairs of sentences mean the same thing, but the first pair is between two people who are familiar with each other, like friends, family, etc. The second one is more formal, so it's likely the two don't know each other well, or at least don't have a very close relationship, such as colleagues, strangers, acquaintances, etc.

Oh thanks, that clears that....
Ummm... I have another question, about boku and watashi and the such...


The different uses for "I" depend on the context and kind of tone you wish to give off. Where as Watashi is more neutral, Boku is more masculine and Atashi is more feminine, along with my many other kinds of words for "I".
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