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Baron von Turkeypants
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:31 pm


http://comment.independent.co.uk/letters/article2970799.ece

Originally thought up by Richard Dawkins, he points out in a witty little saying how ridiculous it is to believe things exist simply because no "proof" (whatever that means) has been found for their non-existence.

Au contraire, a healthy belief system would not believe in X given no proof of X's existence, NOT that there's no reason to believe X doesn't exist since there's no proof it doesn't.

It seems to me the only difference between believing in leprechauns, fairies in your garden, invisible pink unicorns, flying spaghetti monsters, invisible space cups and things like spirits that give off energy and follow your car is the relative frequency of belief in the rest of the population.

However, to seriously consider something as plausible, no matter how ridiculous it is, simply because "other people" believe in it is no reason at all to hold that thing's existence as plausible. If you look back in history and see all the beliefs people held because other people held those beliefs, you'll see quite a lot of erroneous worldviews. In fact, it doesn't take much to convince a group of people with mob mentality of pretty much anything.

To sum up, the burden of proof is not on the person who claims something doesn't exist, but on the person who claims it does. You can't* ask someone to provide proof for something's nonexistence; you must provide proof that it does exist.

*without looking like a retard

EDIT:

Forgot to mention something. This deals with philosophical provability, logical possibility, and physical possibility. Strictly speaking, anything that is not logically possible is neither philosophically possible or physically possible; but logic doesn't say something like a flying spaghetti monster isn't possible. Likewise, to prove philosophically the existence of something in the real world is impossible. It's akin to Descartes' "I think, therefore I am" argument - he wasn't sure that anything else existed except himself. Yet there is no good reason to believe the chair you're sitting under isn't truly there. Because something is not philosophically provable does not mean there is good reason to not believe it exists. Therefore, in any ontological debate, the rhetorical retreat to philosophical existence of objects is both cowardly and ignorant, and the hallmark of someone who is willing to use his higher faculties to only half of the existence problem and no more. Sure, you can't prove the chair doesn't exist. But does that mean we should go about our lives pretending it doesn't?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:29 am


Point seen, but it leaves us back at square one. I, personlly, can't prove anything you mentioned exist, however anyone can offer decent evidence.
Example: decent evidence of some form of intelligence involed in the construction of this planet

1. the sky is blue, from what I gather, blue is a calming color, hinting that we were meant to be peaceful
the opposite arguement: the sky also turns red, orange, yellow, black, and a few other colors, so this theory is either a cooincidence or the peaceful thing isn't 24/7.

2. the sea has salt water, that's probobly to keep the fish in colder parts of the world (namely those closer to the surface) from freezing to death.
the opposite arguement: the fish could migrate or something, there are probobly more factors to this one that could kill or preserve them.

3. evolution, more specificly, living things have claws, teeth, stingers, web dipensers, eyes, (or not if not needed) things going to another phase of life change to suit them.
the opposite arguement: oddly, I don't have a theory to disprove this one YET. baron?

4. the opposite arguement: there is no god of any kind, everything simply formed out of nothing in the big bang.
the original arguement: if that were the case, wouldn't we all be randomly generated blob things in a randomly formed planet?

For 4, it made more sense to start with the opposite arguement, but hopefully no one was thrown off.

All of this gives evidence ans "sensible contridiction", but doesn't really accomplish much. Pretty much the same as this guild, any like it, or any other collection of theories, a big collecton of puzzle peices that don't may be right, but don't look right to everyone.

Ominous Jester
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:48 am


Blue is calming probably because it reminds us of the sky, or in my case, the ocean.

I dunno if you know this, but salt lowers water temperature. So if anything, it's making the fish colder.

According to most people who believe in intelligent design, evolution doesn't exist.

We are all randomly generated blob things in a randomly formed planet. Basically anyway. The reason we look the way we do is because we evolved from very tiny blob things. Evolution works by survival of the fittest. I raise a lot of animals, so one thing I know about is genetic mutations, and how if something works, then that's what will most likely be passed on. We got helpful mutations and they passed on.
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:08 am


As scientists don't hesitate to tell us, we evolved, and I really doubt there was literally a garden of eden. I think we were put here by an intelligence, had the plans for the future rooted into us, and were left here either because it got bred and metaphoricly changed the channel, or is watching us currently... The most I can give are theories. dammit.

True, we were, according to scientists, all bacteria in the begging and evolved into something else. We've all seen that darwin chart with th monkey turning into a human, but it that's what happened, why are there still monkeys?
the opposite arguement: there are all different kinds of monkeys, only one evolved into us.
the original arguement: but the question remains, why just that one?
the opposite arguement: as far as I know, remotely intelligent human life began in europe, people moved around over time, things grew, things happened, now we've pretty much rule the world, more than just where those monkeys were.

*takes a breath*

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:22 am


Look at mice and rats. Very close, but not the same thing. Why did rats evolve to be bigger and a lot more intelligent? They're very good at figuring things out themselves, and they even have emotions. Mice don't. Why did rats get that way, but mice stayed the same?

That's just the way things are. Everything is chance.
If you really want answers, then study everything yourself. Don't ask other people to do it for you.


Also: I once asked a sunday school teacher about that. Even the church admits that Adam and Eve is just a story. What they don't admit, is that the rest of the bible is too.
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:26 am


vanillaXtiffy
Look at mice and rats. Very close, but not the same thing. Why did rats evolve to be bigger and a lot more intelligent? They're very good at figuring things out themselves, and they even have emotions. Mice don't. Why did rats get that way, but mice stayed the same?

That's just the way things are. Everything is chance.
If you really want answers, then study everything yourself. Don't ask other people to do it for you.


Also: I once asked a sunday school teacher about that. Even the church admits that Adam and Eve is just a story. What they don't admit, is that the rest of the bible is too.


Thank you very much. Though some of it may have happened, Egypt was probobly greatly exagerrated... Should we be worried that there's a belief system on tall tales?

Ominous Jester
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:56 am


I dont know why you are talking about the sly being blue. Or why you think there is a purpose to it but, the blue color of the sky is due to Rayleigh scattering.

As light moves through the atmosphere, most of the longer wavelengths pass straight through. Little of the red, orange and yellow light is affected by the air.

Much of the shorter wavelength light is absorbed by the gas molecules. The absorbed blue light is then radiated in different directions. It gets scattered all around the sky. Whichever direction you look, some of this scattered blue light reaches you. Since you see the blue light from everywhere overhead, the sky looks blue.

Its just light reflecting.
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:01 am


Thanks for the scientific explanation, but it's neither news nor the point. I was pointing out that it was THAT specific color. The sky and sea could have been yellow, grey, bright pink, brown, but they're blue. It may have been deliberate, or an insignificant cooincidence, I leave that in the eye of the beholder.

Ominous Jester
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Doctor Atoms
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:08 am


To that horrible question about why there are still monkeys.

If Protestantism evolved from Catholicism, Why are there still Catholics?

or

If God made man from dirt, why is there still dirt?

also

If mammals came from reptiles, why are there still lizards? If reptiles came from amphibians, why are there still frogs? If amphibians came from fish, why are there still fish? If birds came from dinosaurs, why are there still… , never mind.

Seriously though. Just because one line of evolution from single-celled organisms resulted in us, that doesn't mean that no other lines of evolution could exist. Some apes evolved in a line that became us. Others branched off to chimpanzees, others branched off to gorillas, others branched off to orangutans, and so forth.

Its wrong to assume that evolution moves in a line form from lower to higher. Once a "higher" organism exists, there is no reason for a "lower organism to not exist.

The online line that exists is from one adaptation to another. We are not higher the anything else. We are just more adaptive and better suited to more environments then others. Our brains and ability to change our surroundings change the environment to suit our needs. The one best able to survive is just the one that does survive. Not any sort of higher species.
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:10 am


Varmeip
Thanks for the scientific explanation, but it's neither news nor the point. I was pointing out that it was THAT specific color. The sky and sea could have been yellow, grey, bright pink, brown, but they're blue. It may have been deliberate, or an insignificant cooincidence, I leave that in the eye of the beholder.


Well the only reason the sea is blue is because its reflecting the sky, or another color because of whats underneath it and showing through

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Ominous Jester
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:12 am


Congrats, you can tell HOW the sky is blue, but not why.
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:16 am


Why? It is because we can see, because there is light and because our light is of a certain frequency. If it was a few wave lengths different it would be Violet or mauve.

Hell it might be possible to change it if we messed with the sun or the atmosphere enough.

Reminds me of the sliders episode when they went into an earth that had a purple sky.

Doctor Atoms
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Ominous Jester
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:18 am


Once again, that's really more how than why.
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:24 am


Only because you wont accept it as why. There is always a why if you dont accept one reason. If I said the why was because god like the color blue or wanted us to feel happy when we saw it. Then I would say, "Well why did he want us to feel a certian way when we saw it. And it would go on. He wanted us to know he is there for us. "Why does he want us to know he is there". So we know how things were created or who created it. "Why is god so insecure? Why does he need to have us know he did all this for him"

It will just get more complex and probably dumber questions. And it will eventually lead to Why is there a god or why do we believe in him,

Doctor Atoms
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