Welcome to Gaia! ::

It's the degree and intent with which you do it. Reasoning based on the notion of "good" is an attempt to circumvent reasoning entirely. Except with perfect inaction you cannot help but to manipulate something.

I lol'd when you talked about not manipulating reality. It sounds almost as if you think it's some sort of invariable constant.

And yes, a tree produces sound waves even if we aren't around to hear it.

...I...You can't...Yes, you're trying to manipulate something, but it's negligible. If we said "forget good and evil, it's just a way to manipulate things," we'd also have to say "forget about ever saying anything or doing anything at all, because we wouldn't want to manipulate anything..." You said yourself that except with absolutely no action can we prevent manipulation. So what, you want everyone to never leave their house, never leave their bed, never move or speak at all? We'd just rot.

Reality is solely one's perception of one's surroundings. Nothing more, nothing less. That perception can be altered or tainted, but not really manipulated. I suppose it can be manipulated in a way, but not...controlled or molded in the way you're making it sound. It's not invariable, but it can't be altered easily. Trauma, medical conditions, psychological conditions, and certaint unhealthy environments can all alter reality, but as you know, it's not an easy thing. On the same note, peope cannot be manipulated as easy as you may think. You can try to manipulate someone, but you can never truly gain control of them. They'll still have thoughts, still have a subconscious that isn't easily broken into. You might argue, "what about people who are brainwashed?" Those who have been brainwashed are not manipulated in the literal sense of the word. Their perception of reality has been broken. But even they still can't be completely controlled. They can be scared or intimidated into doing things, but not controlled.

I don't know what the ******** Cognitive Dissonance Theory is. lol

Oh I can definitely see where they did. :/ I also see where I stupidly let them lead me along the path they wanted like I normally do to other people. Interestingly they'd rather pick at what is in reality an irrelevant attachment to the claim rather than the main thing itself. None of them have done anything about moral relativity, they just all complained about the puppet statement.

Oh I'm abandoning it. I do understand the prove me stupid to prove my ideas stupid bit. It's already set in their minds that I'm an idiot and due to the trivial nature of this entire debate in the grand scheme of things, it's a waste of effort to pursue it further.

Yay, I love it when people talk about me as if I'm not around. But I especially liked the part where you pretended it wasn't me. And for once, I'm being completely serious.

And, in my defense, I have nothing against you, Resurrection. I don't even know you well enough to form a judgement for or against you. I do, however, disagree with your point. Maybe a better explanation would help me understand. I don't entirely disagree with Khalida's interpretation of your point, but it still needs some backing. As Khalida himself said, "it has been given poor representation." I'm not trying to attack you or your beliefs. I can come off as a bit harsh at times, but sarcasm and verbal irony compromise a large part of my sides of discussions. But I'll leave you alone now, and I look foreward to meeting you in another thread.

Oh, and my apologies for this post being a few days late. I've been bed-ridden for the past few days, due to a lovely cold on top of a sinus infection that's been building for a few weeks. Sometimes my seemingly useless immune system amazes even me.

Hey, in my defense, I usually only fault people if they are really crazy or stupid. And I usually think that if they have flawed arguements. So hah.