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 Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:40 pm
I think that gays/bi's should be allowed into all faiths and religions and that, as long as they don't bother me, that they are fine.
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Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:45 pm
Severus-snape-the-second Dis Domnu darkphoenix1247 Dis Domnu I'll use a line of thought given to me by an orthodox friend while debating this very issue. G-d has given mankind commandments to follow, but G-d also makes it so some people can not (physically, mentally, or spiritually) follow these commandments. There are men born without arms, who clearly can not wash their hands, or place Tefillin on himself. There are Jews born in remote regions where they have no hope of keeping kosher, or where it is dangerous to openly practice and so must not celebrate shabbat. And there are people born who do not believe their gender fits their sex, or who are attracted to people of the same sex, or any other of the many things that naturally make it hard, or even impossible, for a person to follow G-d's commandments. Are we/they (yes, I am one of them) going to suffer for eternity because of this? No, of course not. The main difference between our G-d, and the God of the Christians is that G-d forgives, God does not. Even IF G-d disagrees with our choices, we will be forgiven. That point aside, one must wonder if these things are really wrong, if G-d decided to place them in our lives in the first place. It's not as though we had a choice when we were born, so please don't even try the "free choice" line of BS. G-d made us the way we are, and you're going to sit there and tell G-d He made us wrong? That is probably one of the best arguments I've heard in a while; well-said. :3 Except careful of knocking the Christian god. xp Not knocking their god. Just pointing out a key difference in ideology. They can go to Hell for eternity, we can't. I think it is ok to be knocking their god; they have agianst ours. As it is written: An eye for an eye; a tooth for a tooth. Actually, jew's and christians worship the same God, with a difference. Christians believe Jesus is the Messiah and Jewish people don't. It says in the bible in the New Testement that "I come before you, from the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob." -Jesus. So... yeah biggrin Just saying that the difference is messianic beleifs, not God beleifs... Oh! And most christians don't have anything against the jewish peoples, just to let you know...
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Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:52 pm
isaiahprofit Severus-snape-the-second Dis Domnu darkphoenix1247 Dis Domnu I'll use a line of thought given to me by an orthodox friend while debating this very issue. G-d has given mankind commandments to follow, but G-d also makes it so some people can not (physically, mentally, or spiritually) follow these commandments. There are men born without arms, who clearly can not wash their hands, or place Tefillin on himself. There are Jews born in remote regions where they have no hope of keeping kosher, or where it is dangerous to openly practice and so must not celebrate shabbat. And there are people born who do not believe their gender fits their sex, or who are attracted to people of the same sex, or any other of the many things that naturally make it hard, or even impossible, for a person to follow G-d's commandments. Are we/they (yes, I am one of them) going to suffer for eternity because of this? No, of course not. The main difference between our G-d, and the God of the Christians is that G-d forgives, God does not. Even IF G-d disagrees with our choices, we will be forgiven. That point aside, one must wonder if these things are really wrong, if G-d decided to place them in our lives in the first place. It's not as though we had a choice when we were born, so please don't even try the "free choice" line of BS. G-d made us the way we are, and you're going to sit there and tell G-d He made us wrong? That is probably one of the best arguments I've heard in a while; well-said. :3 Except careful of knocking the Christian god. xp Not knocking their god. Just pointing out a key difference in ideology. They can go to Hell for eternity, we can't. I think it is ok to be knocking their god; they have agianst ours. As it is written: An eye for an eye; a tooth for a tooth. Actually, jew's and christians worship the same God, with a difference. Christians believe Jesus is the Messiah and Jewish people don't. It says in the bible in the New Testement that "I come before you, from the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob." -Jesus. So... yeah biggrin Just saying that the difference is messianic beleifs, not God beleifs... Oh! And most christians don't have anything against the jewish peoples, just to let you know... No, there really is a difference in beliefs. We believe in the unity of G-d. Christians have the father, son, and holy ghost. That's three (f=1, s= 1, hg=1; 1+1+1=3). Big difference.
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Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:55 am
Just in case this should evolve from a gentle correction here and there into a theological debate, and then devolve into rounds of insults, I'm putting notice that this may be better served by PMs than by posts.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:42 pm
Dis Domnu Arm Chair, honestly, W-T-F? Are you coming into the Jewish guild and arguing against G-d and His laws? Are you seriously coming here to argue that another holocaust is inevitable? This is the wrong bloody guild to try that childish, illogical, stuff. Kindly take it somewhere else. The wheel is still in spin and unless it stops anything is possible. You may not like me, but saying we can have world peace and have no more wars. If you feel I have hate against any of you then here it is. No. People hate you already for reasons that aren't even good to kill a person about not to mention say it in public or act it out in private.
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Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:41 am
Going back to the original talking points, just for my own benefit. I dont want to get into this whole god thing going on. Heh Dx
Do you think that a commited homosexual couple should be permitted to join a synagogue as a 'family', paying the rate of a married couple?
Yes, although, I wouldnt mind not being considered a family if I get a little extra off the top. Payments are expensive for some congregations. If you ask me, that should warrant a biblical time stoning more than two men enjoying it up the bum.
How far should Jews go with accepting homosexuality?
Considering what has happened to the Jewish people and how there are so worse things to be worrying about than being gay, I think Jews should welcome all members of the LGBT community. It just doesnt seem right for people who have had a history of hatred towards them show hatred towards someone, especially if those people are in their own community.
What would you say if your rabbi was going to officiate at a gay ceremony?
Id be all for it.
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:03 pm
Seeing as I'm new... and my word is very small and I don't expect to be listened to but I make it tradition to speak my mind when given permission...
I' am against Homosexuality, I think it is a sin; but I have alot of friends that believe they're Bi/Gay/Lesbian and I love them just as much as my "normal" friends. In religion I belive that no sin should be allowed to go with the blessings of the religious leader, but this is my personal opinion. Conformity is all to much becoming a normality in todays religious lifestyles. I will not forsake my friendship to my gay friends and I' am not against making new gay friends but I do pray that they change their ways as I would for any other friend sinning.
This is myopinion I have more to it but my mom wants me to go to bed and is getting angry.
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Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:19 am
Eh... Noo 0ne, before I whips out my big guns I want to clear something up; are you stating that homosexual feelings are sin, or homosexual sex is sin?
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Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:21 pm
Personally I don't believe that being the way G-d made you can be a sin. I mean if G-d didn't want some men to be gay why is a man's prostate a g-spot? Anyway I know Torah says to kill any man who sleeps with another man and any one who commits beastiality, but I haven't read anything on lesbianism, so does anyone know what it says about woman with woman?
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 3:13 pm
It's not a sin; it's just not a marriage. A marriage is a man and a woman, and you can't have sex without marriage. So acting on your homosexuality is a sin.
And Christians don't have anything against the Jewish people? History disagrees.
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 3:28 pm
Jumping in...I agree with Divash, who is amazing. I read this whole thing, and I'm really late for dinner now, so I'm typing fast forgive errors thankyou. The whole synagogue/gay thing is interesting to say the least. I'm kind of a prude about sexual acts - I believe in waiting until marriage - but I think gay and straight couples should be held to the same standards. That's why I think having gay marriages or commitment ceremonies is really important, because sex without formally committing to each other is not right. And honestly, there are so many rules in the Torah that not everybody follows (or can follow, as with diabetics and fasting) that breaking the prohibition against male-on-male sex is a personal matter I wouldn't intervene in, like the idea of menstruating women as unclean or not keeping kosher and not working on Shabbat.
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Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:17 am
To hold frum Jews on the equal ground as "homosexual Jews"( openly Torah Breaking Jews?) Now I guess only G-d can judge but why live in this secular fairy land where everyone is equal and everyone should be accepted. ONce you started taking G-d out of the equation corruption comes in and sin runs rampent.
Well let me qoute Rabbi Moshe Tendler in response to Steven Greenberg who claimed to be an Orthodox Rabbi and Gay.
"the exact same as if he said, 'I'm an Orthodox Rabbi and I eat ham sandwiches on Yom Kippur.'"
See all sins are terrible and you can't all of a sudden make it okay unless G-d say it is okay. Well Shalom and have nice Shabbat on Saturday.
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darkphoenix1247 Vice Captain
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Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:27 pm
Boreddude07 To hold frum Jews on the equal ground as "homosexual Jews"( openly Torah Breaking Jews?) Now I guess only G-d can judge but why live in this secular fairy land where everyone is equal and everyone should be accepted. ONce you started taking G-d out of the equation corruption comes in and sin runs rampent. Well let me qoute Rabbi Moshe Tendler in response to Steven Greenberg who claimed to be an Orthodox Rabbi and Gay. "the exact same as if he said, 'I'm an Orthodox Rabbi and I eat ham sandwiches on Yom Kippur.'" See all sins are terrible and you can't all of a sudden make it okay unless G-d say it is okay. Well Shalom and have nice Shabbat on Saturday. I was unaware that being gay/lesbian was a sin- isn't only the actual act of sex prohibited? I could be wrong, though.
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Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:23 pm
darkphoenix1247 I was unaware that being gay/lesbian was a sin- isn't only the actual act of sex prohibited? I could be wrong, though. Mostly right. Only ONE same-sex act is prohibited in all of Torah or Talmud: a**l penetration between men. That's not my own interpretation, but the interpretation of my rav, a very learned and pious man.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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