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This is an idea I have been toiling with for a while which has generated interest from the crew. Since this is a significant overhaul, a potential relatively major system update like the one we could have coming up would be the perfect time to implement it. However, before I even submit this as an official proposal, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

Thanks!

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The Proposal

Changing the way the Ninjutsu skill is applied in the system through various modifications:

1. Making all elemental natures independant skills that need to be develloped individually, the same way different weapon skills need to be develloped independantly.

2. Making "Chakra Shape Manipulation" its own skill and have it grant additional effects.

3. Making Chakra Control have an effect on the effective chakra cost of techniques, as is stated to be its main effect in the series.

4. Having characters have only one elemental affinity which will grant certain bonuses (still allowing to learn additonal elemental nature manipulation, having "Water Affinity" is a different thing than knowing "Water Release".)


Your Method of address


For the division of Ninjutsu skills:

First, in the [ESSENTIAL] Skills thread, replacing Ninjutsu and Chakra Control by the following:

Chakra Nature Transformation (Insert Element Name): This skill measures your ability to transform your chakra to a specific elemental nature in order for it to gain its properties.
Bonus: For every 10 points over a jutsu's Chakra Nature Manipulation requirement, reduce the number of attack turns required to cast it by 1, for a minimum of 1.

Chakra Shape Transformation: This skill measures your ability to transform the shape of your chakra. It involves changing the form and movement of chakra, determining the size, range, and purpose of techniques.
Bonus: For every 4 points over a jutsu's Chakra Shape Transformation requirement (if any), increase technique damage by (2-4).

Chakra Control: This skill measures your ability to control chakra and to handle it when performing any kind of ninjutsu, genjutsu, medical ninjutsu or fuuin jutsu. Chakra Control allows for more efficient use of chakra while using jutsus, making it a crucial skill for shinobis who were not gifted with significant chakra reserves.
Formula: 1d20 + Chakra Control skill points + Intelligence modifier vs. DC
Bonus: For every 5 points over a jutsu's chakra control requirement, reduce it's chakra cost by 5%.


For the modification to nature affinity and nature manipulation:

First, adding the following section to the basic character sheet found in the Step by Step Character Creation and Character Sheet 2.5, just before "Jutsus":



Second, changing , in the Step 4 post, Character Data, the text for nature affinity so that it reads as follows:

Element Affinity: Even though many shinobis know how to control up to two elemental natures of chakra, each person's body has a natural afinity to only one. Even though some elemental affinities are more common to certain regions or villages, individuals of any affinity can be found around the world. In order to decide which affinity your character will have, refer to the [ESSENTIAL] Technique List thread under each individual elemental nature to choose your character's elemental affinity. Once chosen, consider it a "limit" to insert in your character's profile from the start.

Third, adding at the top of every post for each elemental nature in the [ESSENTIAL] Technique List thread the following abilities and limits:

Chakra Seishitsu Henka: Mizu (Chakra Nature Transformation: Water)

Nature transformation is an advanced form of chakra control. It entails the moulding and defining of one's chakra into an innate type of chakra nature, altering its properties and characteristics. The Water Release are techniques that allow the user to manipulate pre-existing water, or create their own, by turning their chakra into water.
Requirements: Chakra Control 20.
Training: 3 stages:
Stage 1: Chakra Control DC: 30, Focusing your chakra on a piece of chakra paper until it soaks with water.
Stage 2: Chakra Nature Transformation (Water) DC: 10, Generating movement in a bowl filled with water without touching it.
Stage 3: Chakra Control + Chakra Nature Transformation (Water) DC: 32, Filling an empty bowl with water using only your chakra.
Effect: User can learn and use water element jutsus.

Chakra Seishitsu Henka: Kaminari (Chakra Nature Transformation: Lightning)

Nature transformation is an advanced form of chakra control. It entails the moulding and defining of one's chakra into an innate type of chakra nature, altering its properties and characteristics. The Lightning Release are techniques allow the user to generate lightning by increasing the high frequency vibrations of their chakra, allowing for piercing damage and fast movement. The electricity often paralyses or stuns targets so that they are unable to move and leave them vulnerable to attacks.
Requirements: Chakra Control 20
Training: 3 stages
Stage 1: Chakra Control DC: 30, Focusing your chakra on a piece of chakra paper until it shrivels from static.
Stage 2: Chakra Nature Transformation (Lightning) DC: 10, Activating an electic appliance by holding it's extremity and feeding it with lightning chakra.
Stage 3: Chakra Control + Chakra Nature Transformation (Lightning) DC: 32, Feeding the appliance while standing away from it, conducting your electricity through the air.
Effect: User can learn lightning element jutsus.


Chakra Seishitsu Henka: Hi (Chakra Nature Transformation: Fire)

Nature transformation is an advanced form of chakra control. It entails the moulding and defining of one's chakra into an innate type of chakra nature, altering its properties and characteristics. The Fire Release are techniques are of the offensive-type that primarily allow the user to create fire by increasing the temperature of their chakra.
Requirements: Chakra Control 20.
Training: 3 stages
Stage 1: Chakra Control DC: 30, Focusing your chakra on a piece of chakra paper until it burns and consumes itself.
Stage 2: Chakra Nature Transformation (Fire) DC: 10, Intensifying the size and heat of a bonfire using your chakra.
Stage 3: Chakra Control + Chakra Nature Transformation (Fire) DC: 32, Lighting a bonfire using your chakra.
Effect: User can learn fire element jutsus.


Chakra Seishitsu Henka: Kaze (Chakra Nature Transformation: Wind)

Nature transformation is an advanced form of chakra control. It entails the moulding and defining of one's chakra into an innate type of chakra nature, altering its properties and characteristics. The Wind Release are offensive-type techniques that allow the user to manipulate wind by shaping their chakra to be as sharp and as thin as possible, very much like the blades of a pair of scissors.
Requirements: Chakra Control 20
Training: 3 stages
Stage 1: Chakra Control DC: 30, Focusing your chakra on a piece of chakra paper until it cuts in two.
Stage 2: Chakra Nature Transformation (Wind) DC: 10, Diverting the direction and intensity of the wind in your immediate area using your chakra.
Stage 3: Chakra Control + Chakra Nature Transformation (Wind) DC: 32, Cutting a leaf or a sheet of paper in two by manioulating wind particles with your chakra.
Effect: User can learn wind element jutsus.


Chakra Seishitsu Henka: Tsuchi (Chakra Nature Transformation: Earth)

Nature transformation is an advanced form of chakra control. It entails the moulding and defining of one's chakra into an innate type of chakra nature, altering its properties and characteristics. The Earth Release are techniques that allow the user to manipulate the surrounding earth for offensive and defensive purposes; be it dirt, mud, or rock. Earth Release techniques have the ability to change the strength and composition of the earth from being as hard as metal to as soft as clay.
Requirements: Chakra Control 20
Training: 3 stages
Stage 1: Chakra Control DC: 30, Focusing your chakra on a piece of chakra paper until it turns to dirt and crumbles.
Stage 2: Chakra Nature Transformation (Earth) DC: 10, Getting the ground under your feet to slightly tremble.
Stage 3: Chakra Control + Chakra Nature Transformation (Earth) DC: 32, Generating an uneveness in the ground using your chakra.
Effect: User can learn earth element jutsus.

And adding for the affinities:

Chakra Seishitsu Aishou: Mizu (Chakra Nature Affinity: Water)

This shinobi's chakra has a natural affinity to the water element.
Effect:
*Reduce requirements to learn Suiton and suiton jutsus by 20%.
*Reduce Cp cost penalty to create water for jutsus when no water source is present by 50%.

Chakra Seishitsu Aishou: Rai (Chakra Nature Affinity: Lightning)

This shinobi's chakra has a natural affinity to the lightning element.
Effect:
*Reduce requirements to learn Raiton and raiton jutsus by 20%.
*Reduce Cp cost of lightning jutsus by 10%.

Chakra Seishitsu Aishou: Hi (Chakra Nature Affinity: Fire)

This shinobi's chakra has a natural affinity to the fire element.
Effect:
*Reduce requirements to learn Katon and katon jutsus by 20%.
*Increase base damage of fire jutsus by 15%.

Chakra Seishitsu Aishou: Kaze (Chakra Nature Affinity: Wind)

This shinobi's chakra has a natural affinity to the wind element.
Effect:
*Reduce requirements to learn Fuuton and fuuton jutsus by 20%.
*Increase wind jutsu's chances of causing critical hits by 5% (if target rolls a natural 1 or 2 on Save).

Chakra Seishitsu Aishou: Tsuchi (Chakra Nature Affinity: Earth)

This shinobi's chakra has a natural affinity to the earth element.
Effect:
*Reduce requirements to learn Doton and doton jutsus by 20%.
*Increase resistance of all earth defenses and barriers generated by the user by 15%.


Why is this change necessary?

Canon wise, this system was set in place very early in the Naruto storyline's devellopment, well before much information was given concerning the fundamentals behind chakra molding, jutsu creation, etc. Since then, we've learned how each of these shinobi's aptitudes can impact the effectiveness of ninjutsu, and we've seen that different characters specialize in each of these three skills and how it can impact their fighting style.

Chakra Control: It is very clearly in canon that the more skilled a shinobi is in chakra control, the less chakra he will need to spend to properly cast it. The example was given by comparing sakura to naruto and how much chakra it actually required each to cast a simple jutsu like the bunshin technique.

Nature Manipulation: It is also clearly explained that mastering different elemental transformation is a long process since learning each means starting from scratch all over again, explaining why jounin usually know only 2. By seeing various high level shinobis, we see very skilled shinobis in various arts be able to cast very complicated jutsus with sometimes as few as one seal (like Tobirama) while others might need A LOT longer to cast the same techique (like Zabuza and his 44 hand seals for the water dragon).

Shape Manipulation: It is explained that a jutsu's raw power will come mostly from how skilled a user is at controlling its shape and movement. Some will be extremely skilled in this technique making them require very little elemental skill to make powerful jutsus.

As for the affinities, it is now very clear that shinobis only have one nature affinity, whichever it is. They can learn more, although they will not be as apt with the others as they are with theirs.

Balance wise, it became very apparent to me that having all ninjutsu be governed by two stats lead to significant imbalances, especially when compared to non ninjutsu specialists.

Someone who specialized in, let's say genjutsu, will pretty much have only offensive techniques; whereas ninjutsu specialists have a very large variety of effects that they can benefit from ninjutsu, making it a lot more versatile and effective. Splitting the skills that can have potential effects on the jutsus themselves will make getting a large variety of bonuses more costly points wise then simply having ninjutsu and chakra control.

About making each chakra nature their unique skills, this would prevent people from simply jacking up ninjutsu to be masters of any school they choose and will also bring more relevance to the lower level jutsus we see so seldomly when people make higher level characters from scratch. It makes sense that unless they really devote to elemental manipulation, someone shouldn't be a super specialist in two completely different kinds of ninjutsu as easily as the current system allows.

Also, making bonuses to ninjutsu only start when stats exceed the requirements brings much needed balance and logic to the system. If a technique requires 50 ninjutsu to learn in its basic form, the basic damage should take that 50 ninjutsu into consideration... Plus, the current bonus coming automatically from ninjutsu makes some techniques ridiculously powerful, especially flurry of projectiles type techniques.

RP wise, I think this makes things a lot more interesting since it will make for a much broader variety of ninjutsu users than simply having all the same characters with two skills... Those who want to specialize in offensive ninjutsu will need to sacrifice techniques that might require more finesse in nature manipulation to increase the raw power with shape manipulation. Wehreas those that would specialize more in support or finesse would have to sacrifice more direct attack type jutsus in favor of others.


Resulting conclusion based on data

This is a bit redundant with the past explanations, but by adding a third requisite, ninjutsu specialists will need to spread out their points a bit more to be effective. This will ensure that simply having high ninjutsu won't allow someone to learn all the most powerful ninjutsu, the most potent barriers and the most versatile special effect ninjutsu. This will also give less of a dramatic advantage to characters who can use elemental kekkei genkais since they will not be able to learn high ranking jutsus from 3 nature automatically just by maxing out ninjutsu.

Still, this spread will not "nerf" them too much since the added bonuses to each skill will compensate a bit for how more difficult it will become to learn higher level jutsus.

First problem that I see is that you left the reflex bonus out.

Secondly, while I get the reasoning with chakra control, if we are going to give it benefits it ....


Ya know what ... we just need to do a skill rehaul in general.

As it stands, every 10 ranks of nibjutsu makes your techniwue harder to dodge by adding +2 to the save. Without this a will save and reflex save of around 30-40 will dodge eveything in the guild.

Also the whole using less attack turns bit. We tested that and it didnt work Hiru. We need thos in place to balance out the system.

No. Just no. If it wasn't kosher to do it for 5 cp, I don't know why you thought it was a great idea to make it free. Anywho, as I have been saying, the fact that ninjutsu take up multiple turns is the counterbalance for the fact that ninjutsu are usually highly damaging or debilitating, if they were not limited to taking up attack turns they could get out of hand, which is what I witnessed in the mission fight. A good example is Masa's custom jutsu that got approved, I give up attack turns to increase my attack roll. Now with this technique, or your swift release, I drop 5 attacks per 1 attack and end up with 4 attacks that have +50 on top of my attack bonus. Nothing would be able to dodge that. In the current system all I can do is a +30 to only get the one attack .
So yeah, lets just make that a thing that there shouldn't be things that allow jutsu to take less turns without some great cost.

Well what makes things "unfair" or "unbalanced" is when only one party can benefit from an advantage. Making it a general effect means that all can benefit from it, equalizing things for all users.

Canon wise, it is explained in detail how the hand seals are made to weave chakra into the jutsus, and that the more skilled a shinobi is in his art the less he will need to use hand seals to cast the technique.

I understand how you feel it would give an advantage against "pure" taijutsu users; but those, in the Naruto universe, aren't meant to be that dominant, being stated several times that even the most powerful of them can only hope to be very good shinobis at best. Even Gai, probably the most powerful taijutsu user, knows some extent of ninjutsu. This bonus yes, I forgot to specify, would apply to all forms of jutsus including genjutsu; but obviously not taijutsu like in the example you're referring to with your "true strike". This comes from the fact mostly that taijutsu has no chakra cost, making the only down side to learning these techniques be that they use up additional turns (although I'm not even sure why striking a certain way would require more turns than another...) To me, taijutsu is a bit busted in this system and would require a quite extensive rework, but that's a completely different story.

In the fight you're referring to, what struck me as the biggest problem wasn't so much the reduced number of attack turns, as the way ninjutsu was calculated. When you look at it, all it did was give Hiru more chances to stay alive, since only one offensive technique was used by him for the whole fight. Despite Hiru and your character's average dexterity scores for their levels, if Hiru hadn't had his unique jutsu to replace dex by chk for a cost, he would have had 0 chances of dodging any of the fire projectiles your character used, only having a 25% chance to "barely dodge" any of them and therefore taking half damage. That means any other generic or "from scratch" character with his stats and skills would have had a 75 % chance to take (408 - 72 cool damage. Instant death for roughly 100 cp actually seemed to me like the biggest and most significant alarm flag in that fight.

To me, it made it clear that we needed to spread out the skills a bit more, since having a high ninjutsu score made hitting almost an automatic and damage ridiculously punishing.

With this modification, people who would specialize in develloping their elemental mastery would do so at the cost of either their chakra control or their shape transformation. This means that, yes, they would cast them a bit faster; but either for a higher chakra cost and/or for less damage, balancing it out. Also, do not forget two things: 1. The bonus would only apply to a single school, meaning if they attempt any other type of techniques they will not benefit from this effect. 2. The bonus applies when you outscore jutsu requirements, meaning a character would need to have ridiculously high stats to significantly alter the number of turns required to cast B-Rank jutsus and above.

To me, when this modification is looked at as a whole rather than as individual parts, it actually makes ninjutsu a bit weaker when concretely applied to a character; although I find it makes it more interesting.

NOTE: A proposal to limit the number of attacks to a maximum of 4 per round like in real D&D is also in the works, which, if approved, would also reduce the effectiveness of ninjutsu users since the chances of being interrupted will be higher, meaning they would also need to spend more points in concentration to avoid jutsu failures.




No, it would still apply as it is stated in the description of every single jutsu.

The bonus stated in the skill description does not add itself to the bonus already stated in the Reflex DC formula found on the individual techniques, it simply mentions that it is there. Otherwise, the bonus would be applied twice which is not what was meant to be the case. Also, dividing the skills to use jutsus would give greater freedom as to which stat would affect the Reflex DC of jutsus. Shape transformation would definitely affect the chances of hitting of a tornado, making it broader and faster; but wouldn't have any impact on the chances of hitting of a rasengan. Nature manipulation would increase the ease of maneuvering a water dragon in the air; but would not affect the chances of hitting of a pressurized water stream whose speed depends on the pressure applied.



I was not aware of this difference between mundane and other skills. I do believe it makes sense though to have be independant from intelligence, since to me being smart doesn't mean you feel your chakra better and are more skilled at controlling it.


I am cool with these, but I think that they should be easier to learn. Keep in mind that level 5s will be learning this stuff.

I don't mind lowering it, but 20 chakra control is well withing reach of level 5 characters. Nature transformation is actually meant to be a quite advanced skill.


Why do these things have such varied effects?
I think that these should just be trashed. It just seems like this will demolish the balance in this guild.

How? To me it seems they barely have any palpable effect, only enough to motivate people to concentrate in their character's elemental affinity, as should be the case. I'm not sure which of these bonuses you find to be unbalanced... 10% chakra cost? That's a 30 cp difference on an A-Rank lightning jutsus, certainly not what would give a dramatic advantage to a player. 15% damage on fire jutsus is probably the most significant one and I agree it should be 10, but fire jutsus were meant to have the lowest base damage of all jutsus for chakra cost, except earth which is meant to be defensive. Basically, the reason the bonuses are different from an affinity to another is because I made them to compensate slightly for the weaknesses that have been incorporated into each element for the system (except wind for which I just applied all the principles explained in the series as being the ultimate cutting power).



I actually do not see this at all as an increase in power of ninjutsu; but rather as a decrease. I understand that there are beneficial effects that are added to some skills (although it reduces ninjutsu damage), but you actually make the point when you point out the potential complaints that there not be enough points to spread around all of these skills. To me, the ninjutsu system actually is broken, your frustration with our fight being a very good example of it. If this system had applied, Hiru, who is meant o be a specialist in chakra control and nature manipulation, would have had things go very differently:

1. He would barely have had any skill in Swift nature manipulation, having only very recently acquired it. This would mean he would have barely been able to reduce his attack turns required to use jutsus by more than 1.
2. Having focused in Nature manipulation and Chakra Control, his Shape transformation would have been lower, meaning his water prison would have been far easier to escape from.

And no genjutsu would not have to be divided, it is a skill in itself which does not have components like elemental ninjutsu does.

Not much to say on many of the subjects but I think that you all are one different DnD formats. Everyone is trying to input info that is correct in their form of DnD, in which in their said version, is correct but to the others it does not compute due to playing a different version of the game. Maybe we should take a step back and actually come together and pick ONE particular system or make ONE. I'm sure if Pupsage, Qyp, Kouri, Gid, Hiru, and everyone else comes together we can hash out the flaws and make things work but that would require a massive reset to everything. I see jutsus still asking for training requirements in days, some are too over powered, some are broken, and trying to add anything new just doesn't really work. I think with the Kaguya we decided to just let it get approved and figure out the bugs later.