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 Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:50 am
Recently, there has been a discovery of a man thought to be one of the oldest known human fossils in existance. Scientists want to research and investigate these bones in order to find clues as to the true origins of mankind, but, because of the fact that it's on sacred ground and some of the research would involve grinding the bones into dust *or something along those lines*, some Native American groups are trying to pull the plug on thse digs and expeditions.
So, I ask you all, is it better to find our past, or respect the rights of the dead? *according to local legends, at least*
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Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:21 pm
If it was taken from sacred ground, then the bones shouldnt be used. Its disrespectful to the customs of the place (if they believe in stuff like that). If a body was just buried in some random patch of land, and it isnt sacred, I say go for it.
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Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 12:33 am
A balance between these ideals must be attained; honestly, I'm going to roll for one in favor of the Native Americans. Unless and until we start digging big holes in the Vatican looking for archaeological finds, we need to hold ourselves to the same standard for other religious beliefs.
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Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:24 am
While I favor the natives on this one, I do reccomend a happy medium: If the natives accept, they could just take bone chips instead of skeletons. But of course, this is only if they accept. Scientists don't have to investigate everything, it's just that they're really curious about this type of thing. Somethings should be respected.
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Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 12:22 pm
Wow, quite the conundrum.
As an athiest and a scientist, naturally i'm tilting towards the whole, "Screw the Natives, roll in the diggers! biggrin " mentality. That said, even my morals aren't low enough to simply give the Natives a big ol' middle finger. I agree that there should be a happy medium. Carbon dating and all those other methods for testing how old the bones are wouldn't require an entire skeleton, only pieces of it.
The thing is, it's still entering a sacred burial area, even to get just one piece of the bone.
To that, I don't think there will be a medium reached, unless there are other ways of getting inside that will not 'disrespect the spirits of the dead'. Are there rituals or anything that allow a Native into the burial grounds without disturbing the resting of any other bodies?
If there will never be a medium reached, though, i'm more for the whole excavation idea, i'm afraid. The bones could shed more light on humanity's history - possibly even religious history - and would therefore benefit more to mankind. To that end, i'm going to apologise and say dig.
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Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:23 pm
Sacred is scared. if you do so you may have a LOT of angry natives, possibly incurring a riot.
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Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:01 pm
~zzang~ Sacred is scared. if you do so you may have a LOT of angry natives, possibly incurring a riot. Since when did that keep people from taking land, sacred places, and killing people in the name of "progress" and "discovery"? Maybe it's because I'm Cherokee and Muskogee Creek, but it just burns my brisket that people are constantly justifying themselves in destroying other cultures, when, look, when someone flies a plane into two big buildings in our country, it's considered a major tragedy. It's like we think that nothing sucks unless it hurts US. But oh, can't let anyone stand in the way of what WE want to do. Let's just rape, pillage, and steal stuff from those natives. It's not like they're actually HUMAN or anything, 'cause they're not White Christians. stare And people wonder why I look at them like they're crazy when they complain about the "Latino Invasion." Umm, excuse me, WE stole THEIR land, we're the intruders here, not them!!
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:38 am
I agree there should be a happy medium, and I am a scientist with a pet hobby of archaeology. I do believe that at the end of the day, even if I believe there is no higher being, if I want the respect from people about MY beliefs, I ought to grant the same respect to others with theirs'. My after-thought is "Who knows, there might be a God and I'll simply go "******** agree with you too Oni, well that there is a double standard almost when it comes to certain things. Like right now in South Africa, there is a generation of kids in our schools being "all-rights" but "********" that are attached to these rights. They claim that because THEY (they were what, four years old maybe?) were treated harshly under the Apartheid system and THEREFORE are ENTITLED to this and that and the following. I'm sorry, but because I'm white, it doesn't mean I'm a racist. It also doesn't mean that I did anything to harm them in any way. These kids do not realize that in the 1980's violence was high, yes, but apartheid laws were starting to disintegrate then as well. I'm not going to apologise for something that I had no direct influence in. I am sorry that it happened, because it was a nasty case of events, but seriously - it's not like I took a gun and shot a black person just because they were black. Or that I protested about a black lady being in the same cloakroom as I was in. Hell, I even went to damn nursery school with kids of ALL races because everything was so relaxed then. I never knew there was an "Apartheid" until I learnt about it in school. Oh. And my racist mother dancing about like a headless chicken because of the 1994 elections and how we are all going to get killed somehow.
I hate the fact that everybody makes up some half-cocked pathetic reason for their actions just to ensure their actions are not condoned in some sort of way. This brings up the whole thing with the radical Muslims trying to kill off people of all nationalities, not just Americans, because of their religious jihad. I have three friends at varsity who are Muslims are they are stunning women, but even they are disgusted by the actions of these radicals. But just because they are "Arab" and "Muslim", they get such dirty looks from some white people and even black people because of what other idiots that happen to share the same race and culture/religion are doing elsewhere.
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:26 pm
Oni-Angel ~zzang~ Sacred is scared. if you do so you may have a LOT of angry natives, possibly incurring a riot. Since when did that keep people from taking land, sacred places, and killing people in the name of "progress" and "discovery"? Maybe it's because I'm Cherokee and Muskogee Creek, but it just burns my brisket that people are constantly justifying themselves in destroying other cultures, when, look, when someone flies a plane into two big buildings in our country, it's considered a major tragedy. It's like we think that nothing sucks unless it hurts US. But oh, can't let anyone stand in the way of what WE want to do. Let's just rape, pillage, and steal stuff from those natives. It's not like they're actually HUMAN or anything, 'cause they're not White Christians. stare And people wonder why I look at them like they're crazy when they complain about the "Latino Invasion." Umm, excuse me, WE stole THEIR land, we're the intruders here, not them!! Well, it's as the saying goes, history will alway be written by the victors. Which brings me to this: What do the people here think of expansionism and capitalism?
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Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 7:50 am
While, as a Latino, I agree with your point, I disagree on your comparison with the Tower incident. There's a difference, even if the results are the same. The investigations aren't done to spite natives, they have a set goal in mind: investigation and discovery. Sure, that was the same excuse for colonization, but still, there are differences that should be respected. The 9/11 thing was done solely to make a point: they don't like us, and they're willing to die to make us miserable.
It's not that I disagree with you, because I don't, but you have to admit, that comparison was a bit out of place. The double-standard has to end, that's true.
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Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:43 am
Koiyuki Oni-Angel ~zzang~ Sacred is scared. if you do so you may have a LOT of angry natives, possibly incurring a riot. Since when did that keep people from taking land, sacred places, and killing people in the name of "progress" and "discovery"? Maybe it's because I'm Cherokee and Muskogee Creek, but it just burns my brisket that people are constantly justifying themselves in destroying other cultures, when, look, when someone flies a plane into two big buildings in our country, it's considered a major tragedy. It's like we think that nothing sucks unless it hurts US. But oh, can't let anyone stand in the way of what WE want to do. Let's just rape, pillage, and steal stuff from those natives. It's not like they're actually HUMAN or anything, 'cause they're not White Christians. stare And people wonder why I look at them like they're crazy when they complain about the "Latino Invasion." Umm, excuse me, WE stole THEIR land, we're the intruders here, not them!! Well, it's as the saying goes, history will alway be written by the victors. Which brings me to this: What do the people here think of expansionism and capitalism? Well Expansionism is something I'd much rather turn a blind eye too because I know it's going to happen and I hate it. Too many people losing their homes and land to land hungry countries....as for capitalism I don't really see much problem with...just like everything in the world a few people take it too far. (Thiefs, con-artists and so on)
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Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:29 pm
My thoughts on expansionism and capitalism coming from a country that was formally colonized originally by the Dutch which was later fought over by the English. Constantly.
This got escalated due to the fact that the majority of ships travelled around the tip of Africa to reach India by sea - good territory to have as a half-way stop.
This got further escalated with the recognition of diamonds in Kimberly and the discovery of the gold reef in the Witwatersrand areas. Prospectors all around the world came to earn themself some "gold". Greedy capitalists came and industrialised a subsistence agricultural society causing mass urbanisation of Black migrant workers throughout the border countries and within South Africa itself in order to cheaply remove the ore - as the machinery was expensive as if! They had to make a profit...
And then, to further protect their profit, the lengths they went to to secure their worker base by convincing the government to make racist laws in an effort to restrain their workers and force them to do the White capitalist's bidding.
Which then later brings about the poor White Afrikaner, who feels threatened by the Black man willing to work for so cheap as he is not given an education or means to progress himself better in a racist society. They complain and demand job security - it becomes a law!
A segregationist state soon turns into an Apartheid state in the early 1940's. Up to this point and hereafter, laws get altered in order to prevent any person of Colour is not allowed to vote. In order to make the scared White men win the election. Believing that Black people in particular are primitive and uncivilised. Believing that Indians are here to steal jobs and money from White people. Believing that Coloureds which is a creation of the White man with the Black inhabitants, going four centuries strong now, are the enemy because their hair is too curly and thick. I really do not mean to offend people, but in South Africa, if you called a Coloured person Black, they would seriously own your a** - because they are not Black. They are centuries of mix-breeds breeding with other mix-breeds to put it simply. The same means of violence is applied with Black people - instead they'll curse you first in iZulu/Setswana/iPedi/iXhosa/etc. and then own your a**.
Apartheid is in full force in the 1960's. Capitalists getting rich within the country when the proletariat get poorer. In the 1980's, government thinks they are doing everybody a massive favour with a Tricameral Parliament which falls through eventually. We only have our first truly democratic elections in 1994.
With that little bit of history and background, and with my stance on the subject, and as a White women living in Africa who IS African, capitalism got a beautiful place into a whole heap of s**t over some greedy ******** bastards who could exploit the uneducated masses of whom just came from their traditional ethnic homeland to get money because their hut(s) were starting to get taxed by an uncaring White colonised state who did not think for a minute to educate these people. I strongly believe that the majority of racism is derived from fear or lack of understanding of the other race in question - which I believe is case and point in South African history. The earliest report of racism documented discussed how the Cape Colony constructed a hedge around their colony to keep the local San and Khoi-Khoi out of what was actually the locals' land. Sorry, I feel I rambled on, this does kind of touch base with my Historical Studies research essay I'm currently busy with. ninja
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