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 Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:30 pm
xxEverBluexx Chieftain Twilight xxEverBluexx Shadows-shine I haven't really noticed it. I know of people who are anti-Islam, but I haven't seen America as a whole moving in that direction. I suppose though, the same could be said about all religions, different parts of America are anti-Christian, anti-Jew, etc. I haven't either. I actually think America's a little too tolerant of different ideas sometimes... how can america be too tolerant of different ideas? confused that's what america was founded on: Radicalism! i think that american Conservatives should remember their roots and uphold the Constitution of Rights and the Declaration of Independence, while Liberals should speak up for the Personal Rights and Freedoms that those documents stand for. we are AMERICA! we are supposed to be a Progressive, Tolerant, Safe-Haven where people can worship freely, speak freely, defend themselves, and earn an honest living from the sweat of their brows! We weren't all that tolerant from the beginning actually. I don't know about Muslims in American history, but we've done a lot of judging, especially based on race. I've even got some ancestors that were judged ('No Irish need apply'? I'm Irish), and I have completely European roots. African-Americans were thought of as animals at one point, and where do you think the laws against homosexuality came from? Not to mention what was thought of a girl who became pregnant. Some of them were forced to marry the guy, even the if he raped her. Even the founding fathers didn't think everyone was equal: woman didn't have equal rights, and black men were valued as 3/5 of a person. We celebrate diversity now, but once it was only the white men who had all the rights you're talking about. I'm not saying that was right, just that those rights were for one specific race and gender. I don't think America embraces intolerance more than anything else, at least not when it comes to race, sexual orientation, or religion. I could name a few different things we embrace more, like capitalism. It might just be what part of the country the both of us live in. My state's really liberal, so anyone who judges is really likely to be more judged, especially if they judge based on religion, race or sexual preference. Anyways...I really don't think it's wrong to be intolerant towards an idea, as long as you aren't being intolerant towards the people under the idea. I've actually got to say, I think people have gotten too open-minded. You can take anything too far, and that's the way I feel America is about accepting new ideas. 'Open-minded' is a compliment, 'close-minded' an insult. Well, when taken to extremes they're both bad things, but people need to have some non-negotiable convictions.
And you can't separate an idea from it's followers then it's something so personal. Religion, sexual orientation, many people define themselves by those things. So even without making laws, proclaiming your hate for that thing is hurtful.
When you enforce that hatred with laws on top of it, then it's something that those people simply can't ignore anymore. If you make laws against homosexuality, naturally it will affect and oppress homosexuals. Make laws against Islam, oppress Muslim. etc.
You can't support laws against Islam (and the rights of its followers) and expect to be okay with Muslims. Especially because its a religion that demands an incredibly amount of devotion and loyalty.
Also, there's a difference between open-minded and naive. Naive is giving terrorists a secret base for them to scheme and plan another attack. Open-minded is stopping to think that maybe these people aren't in fact terrorists and American citizens looking for religious freedom in a country that so proudly promises it and looking into it before dismissing them.
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Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:36 pm
brainnsoup xxEverBluexx brainnsoup xxEverBluexx brainnsoup What if I said I hated Christianity?
If a person wishes to stay in the dark and chooses not to expand the size of his pea brain, that is his own choice.
But it isn't an informed opinion. I can't and won't try to ban a person's personal thoughts.
Still, it is understandable to find faults with a religion.
It's stupid to hate a religion.
I could possibly understand if a religion is solely based on infanticide and torturing puppies.
But the truth is that all religions are trying to work towards what its people think is good.
Every religion is corrupted and twisted by people. And most religions encourage a dangerous cultish level of devotion and obedience.
But it is plain stupid to hate a religion. Especially one that you know nothing about. And I guarantee that anyone who claims to hate Islam doesn't understand it. *shrugs* One of my friends says God is dead. In some way I kinda prefer it when take a definite view (even if it's totally against Christianity or something I believe) because 1) they're more likely to stick to Christianity really strongly if they come to it, and 2) it says that's better in the Bible. I don't think it is. I don't understand Islam perfectly, but to tell the truth, after reading what happens to people in the Islamic nations, I hate it. Some of the men are real monsters, and some of the stories make me want to weep for the victims. I know there's evil Christians, but these people (men mainly) use this religion as an excuse to keep the power in their hands. Some of it's also misinterpretation, but not all of it is .It's not just that either. I feel like Islam twisted Christianity and Judaism and called it 'truth'. It bugs me a lot more that something I value is made less to give support to something completely different, then when it's simply hated. At least being hated is honest in a way. There's Muslims I like, Muslims I've enjoyed reading about, Muslims I'm friends with; I don't hate them in the least. But I hate the religion.
Why do you hate it?
And if you don't mind me asking, what do you actually know about Islam?
I hate it because Muhammad twisted two other religions for money and power, and because they've made Jesus into one of their prophets, and also because there are verses that they use to mistreat women in the Middle East. I blame the Koran for having at least some part in the suffering there. If there were Jews who hated Christians because they think we stole from their religion, I wouldn't blame them, but at least you can't say Jesus didn't suffer for what He did. He died on a cross. Muhammad, so far as I can see, got tons of respect and riches, and not a lot of the pain. So to recap, I hate it: 1) For it's founder. 2) Because it disrespects the two religions I value most. 3) And for modern day suffering based off verses from it's holy book. 4) Oh, and it's a belief in their religion our Holy Book was distorted, which bugs me to no end. It sounds like a cop-out to me, and I don't see how any of them would know (and how would they know anything about Jesus anyway, if it developed a long time after His death?). What I know: Muhammad was the founder. Muslims have great reverence for him as the 'Last Prophet', though they don't consider him a god. Allah (which means 'god') is their only god, and they consider it a sin to have any others. They follow the Five Pillars, including a visit to Mecca and praying five times a day. Islam means 'submission'. In their paradise, the men have virgins, and the women are given children to care for. Muslims (at least from Saudi Arabia) don't really believe women have any sexual desires. Women aren't as valued as men, and they aren't considered mature enough to do certain things (like drive) in the Middle East. In some Middle Eastern countries, women are forced to don burqas or other less restrictive head coverings, though some Muslim women want to wear head coverings (one of my Muslim friends would wear a hijab if her mom would let her). Muhammad claimed to have a revelation from Gabriel about being the 'Last Prophet'. Muslims believe that Allah revealed it because the Bible and Torah were distorted. Muhammad is probably descended from Abraham's other son, Ishmael, who God said would become a great nation too. In some ways, Islam is incredible similar to my religion, and I don't doubt that some Muslims treat their religion much the way Christians treat theirs. I debated with a Muslim, and felt like it was like looking in a distorted mirror. Some of his beliefs mirrored mine, with different names. That helps me not to feel any resentment towards Muslims, as well as the books I've read and knowing some Muslims. But I despise the religion, because it feels like a cheapo imitation of something I love, a plastic ring in place of gold. I resent the fact a lot of people have been lied to. Honestly, you'd have to force me to stop believing in Christianity to make me stop hating Islam, or at least give me some sort of proof that Muhammad's not a liar. At least if he was just a fool who had a vision, he didn't deceive a bunch of people on purpose (that's why I'm convinced that even if Jesus lied, He's not the villain Muhammad was. Who would lie for no profit? Why wouldn't He run from the soldiers if He didn't really believe what He was talking about? Who would knowingly die for a lie, especially if it seemed all was lost?). And by the way, we don't have to test every idea to know if it's bad or good. I don't read horror because I don't need that in my head, and the only book which is slightly horrific I really regret reading (It had a scene which detailed a kid being conscious, yet paralyzed and unable to feel, while doctors took hours to strip him of his body parts. They start with the blood, then the feet, and go up from there...It's called Unwind, and now whenever I think of it, I get nauseous...)
As far as Islam's treatment of women: Women are second class citizens in some portions of the world that practice Islam, no argument. But that's not the fault of the religion. Islam revolutionized the treatment of women when it originated. Before Islam, a little girl would be lucky to see her childhood, rather than murdered on the spot for the heinous crime of being born female. rolleyes
Also remember that Muhammad was teaching his beliefs to basically a completely polytheistic group. He threatened businesses that entirely depended on people's belief in Pagan gods. He definitely put up with his share of persecution. Islam just doesn't teach the same submissive, turn the other cheek policy.
To say that Jesus got no respect is also wrong. Even when he was alive, well, many people believed he was the son of God. I would think that he got a little positive attention. Fast forward to thousands of years in the future, people are still worshiping Him. Muhammad, however, made it clear that he was not God and worshiping him is sacrilegious.
And now your list:
1) You hate Muhammad because he claimed to be God's prophet and, from any point of view that isn't Muslim, he lied. Who knows why or if he even knew, but he lied. Well... What does that say about Jesus to everyone who isn't Christian? Am I to hate Jesus for claiming to be the son of God when I don't believe that's true?
2) Muhammad claims to be God's prophet. That God spoke to him. This is something that no doubt millions of people have said over the past few thousand years. Not entirely offensive to Judaism or Christianity. Misinformed, maybe, but it's own followers claim the same thing. Jesus, however claimed to be God's son, also making him God. In Islam or Judaism, that is extremely sacrilegious and a huge no-no.
3) The idea of people twisting verses from holy texts to match their own point is nothing new. Living in a mostly Christian country (one that claims to separate church and state by the way) I can say with certainty that Christianity does it all the time. Just off of the top of my head, I can point to the dead horse called the homosexuality debate. Let's beat it, shall we? Nowhere in the Bible does it objectively say that homosexuality is wrong. And yet people still continue to twist the same few phrases without any clue of their meaning.
4) My problem with your fourth point is the same problem I had with your second point. One views the holy texts of every religion that they don't believe in as distorted.
As for what they would know about Jesus... Well, you live thousands of years after His death, and you claim to know Him very, very well. Why should these people not know about Jesus?
The point that I'm trying to make with all of my counter-arguments is that Christianity is equally- if not more- guilty of all of these. If those reasons are grounds for everyone who isn't a Muslim to hate Islam, they are also grounds for every non-Christian to hate Christianity even more.
And is that really a productive way to think? To hate rather than understand?
If you don't show tolerance to others, how can you expect them to be tolerant of you?
And Islam isn't a horror book. Clearly that book is designed to terrify and disturb you. Taking an extra step to understand Islam before condemning it only serves to enlighten you.Who's talking about other people? I don't go around telling people to hate Islam. Besides, so far as I've seen, understanding something doesn't always mean you won't hate it. I didn't hate Islam when I first heard of it. I didn't hate it after 9/11. I started to hate it after I learned more about it. 'Not the fault of the religion'? A two-second google search got me this: http://infidelsarecool.com/2008/01/11/top-10-quran-quotes-every-woman-must-see/ If I wasn't exhausted from Freshman Orientation, I could do a more thorough job then that. The prejudices against women come from the Koran, therefore the religion is[/is] at fault. Besides, even if the ideas were revolutionary at the time, they're harmful now. It's like saying we freed the slaves, so we don't have to worry about African Americans being treated fairly. The past is no reason to justify something wrong with something now.
Maybe Muhammad was persecuted, but he didn't die for what he was talking about. I consider him no better then the founder of Scientology, except that guy only misled a small group of people and those people could find out he was a liar easily enough. I think that the founder probably has difficulties too, but I think he deserves them all (and more) for making a false religion to make money off of.
Jesus claimed to be the Son of God - not a son of God (Matthew 11:27; 14:33; 16:16,17; 21:33-41; Luke 22:70; John 1:49,50; 5:19-27; 10:36,38, etc.) and not a just a prophet. Basically, Muhammad didn't bother with what He said-He just shoved Jesus out of the spotlight so he could have it. In some ways it's as bad as calling Jesus a liar, and it is disrespectful to ignore what Jesus said, so yes, I have a real problem with that.
1) At least if Jesus lied He died for it, and as I pointed out before, who willingly would let himself be killed for a lie? If Muhammad didn't know he lied, then I don't care. He didn't purposefully cause harm. If he did though, then... scream It's my pet peeve. I hate it when people do wrong things on purpose.
2) I know! The insanity of what He claimed is part of the reason why I think He wasn't lying. People just didn't say those things then, but He did, making Him either a liar, delusional/insane, or the Son of God. If He's a liar, He died a horrible death already, and He didn't really get anything good for it, so I wouldn't be mad at Him. He doesn't sound delusional/insane. So I believe the third-He's the Son of God.
CS Lewis "A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg - or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us."
3) That's misinterpretation of, at worst, a few verses. I don't even debate that anymore because I don't want to deal with it. What Muhammad did, saying the Holy Books were misinterpreted was on a much larger scale, and yes, I do take offense when it's my religion's Holy Book that it's being done to.
4) Not every religion does it with a religion they claim to be related to though. I don't care as much that you think the Bible's off because you don't claim a relationship with the religion.
Because they disregard everything He said! At least I go off the words He said that were written down by people who knew Him, or knew people who knew Him. And even going off of that, I know Him in another way by personal revelation. The Muslims I've read about who've had a revelation of Him turn from Muhammad to Him. I have at least three books about Muslims getting Saved and becoming Christians, right in the heart of the Middle East, and away from Christian influences.
Well, I don't see it as equally guilty, and I never said everyone should hate Islam anyway. I said I do. I don't think it's wrong to hate Islam, but I'm not suggesting people make hate groups and go burn down mosques either. Besides, I'd rather have people hate Christianity then just be like 'meh', because there's a Bible verse that says God wants people 'hot' or 'cold', not lukewarm. It doesn't really apply to my religion.
I don't know if it is or not. It's a feeling. I have reasons, and they're based on what I know of Islam, but it's not like I decided, I'm gonna hate it. I just do. I'm not going to try to stop hating it either, because I don't see my reasoning as bad.
I don't expect them to be tolerant of me, because I try not to expect things of people. It leads to disappointment. It might even be a good thing to be persecuted for Jesus. I think the Bible says that's a good thing, and that we should also bless those who persecute us, but I should probably go back and find that verse. (That whole reverse it thing doesn't really seem to work with Christianity... xp )
Actually, it wasn't straight out horror, or I wouldn't have bought it. That scene was the worst out of the book, which whole concept was that the pro-life people and the pro-choice people had had a Civil War in our country, with the end result being that babies couldn't be aborted, but kids from the ages of 13-17 could be 'unwound'. It was supposed to be a transition to a new state, and not death. It was interesting, but I still wish I hadn't read it.
And if an idea was just a lie, I think it's poison. If Muhammad purposefully lied, there's no chance there's any truth behind it that wasn't twisted. It's worthless, and you might as well try to find a whole truth, instead of a distorted version of one.
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Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:46 pm
brainnsoup xxEverBluexx Chieftain Twilight xxEverBluexx Shadows-shine I haven't really noticed it. I know of people who are anti-Islam, but I haven't seen America as a whole moving in that direction. I suppose though, the same could be said about all religions, different parts of America are anti-Christian, anti-Jew, etc. I haven't either. I actually think America's a little too tolerant of different ideas sometimes... how can america be too tolerant of different ideas? confused that's what america was founded on: Radicalism! i think that american Conservatives should remember their roots and uphold the Constitution of Rights and the Declaration of Independence, while Liberals should speak up for the Personal Rights and Freedoms that those documents stand for. we are AMERICA! we are supposed to be a Progressive, Tolerant, Safe-Haven where people can worship freely, speak freely, defend themselves, and earn an honest living from the sweat of their brows! We weren't all that tolerant from the beginning actually. I don't know about Muslims in American history, but we've done a lot of judging, especially based on race. I've even got some ancestors that were judged ('No Irish need apply'? I'm Irish), and I have completely European roots. African-Americans were thought of as animals at one point, and where do you think the laws against homosexuality came from? Not to mention what was thought of a girl who became pregnant. Some of them were forced to marry the guy, even the if he raped her. Even the founding fathers didn't think everyone was equal: woman didn't have equal rights, and black men were valued as 3/5 of a person. We celebrate diversity now, but once it was only the white men who had all the rights you're talking about. I'm not saying that was right, just that those rights were for one specific race and gender. I don't think America embraces intolerance more than anything else, at least not when it comes to race, sexual orientation, or religion. I could name a few different things we embrace more, like capitalism. It might just be what part of the country the both of us live in. My state's really liberal, so anyone who judges is really likely to be more judged, especially if they judge based on religion, race or sexual preference. Anyways...I really don't think it's wrong to be intolerant towards an idea, as long as you aren't being intolerant towards the people under the idea. I've actually got to say, I think people have gotten too open-minded. You can take anything too far, and that's the way I feel America is about accepting new ideas. 'Open-minded' is a compliment, 'close-minded' an insult. Well, when taken to extremes they're both bad things, but people need to have some non-negotiable convictions.
And you can't separate an idea from it's followers then it's something so personal. Religion, sexual orientation, many people define themselves by those things. So even without making laws, proclaiming your hate for that thing is hurtful.
When you enforce that hatred with laws on top of it, then it's something that those people simply can't ignore anymore. If you make laws against homosexuality, naturally it will affect and oppress homosexuals. Make laws against Islam, oppress Muslim. etc.
You can't support laws against Islam (and the rights of its followers) and expect to be okay with Muslims. Especially because its a religion that demands an incredibly amount of devotion and loyalty.
Also, there's a difference between open-minded and naive. Naive is giving terrorists a secret base for them to scheme and plan another attack. Open-minded is stopping to think that maybe these people aren't in fact terrorists and American citizens looking for religious freedom in a country that so proudly promises it and looking into it before dismissing them.I'm just saying, it's not exactly something we were founded on if it took us this long to get to this point. This is probably the first place I've said I hate Islam at all publicly. I wouldn't say it to anyone I didn't trust in real life, and I don't think I'd ever say it to a Muslim in real life, especially not this bluntly. And who said anything about laws? I'm not going to encourage people to hate it, and I wouldn't act on my hatred of the religion (seriously, if anyone ever said I could make the laws regarding Islam, I'd decline), because I'm not out to harm that religion's followers. I might rejoice people step away from Islam, tell people what I find is wrong with it, etc., but that's the furthest I'd go. I just don't think being 'open-minded' is a great compliment. We're embracing that attitude so much, that it's apparently wrong for me to hate a religion (because I might offend someone rolleyes ), even if that doesn't include the followers, and I don't mean to act on it. Is it wrong for me to like certain cultures more then others? Why is it wrong for me to dislike a religion I know about if it doesn't affect anyone else? If I find a like one ethnic group a little more then another because of something like an accent, is that wrong? If I tell my little sister not to be so close to her bi friend who says she thinks she's cute (and also that she'd date her) more then once, is that wrong?
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Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:41 pm
xxEverBluexx brainnsoup xxEverBluexx brainnsoup xxEverBluexx *shrugs* One of my friends says God is dead. In some way I kinda prefer it when take a definite view (even if it's totally against Christianity or something I believe) because 1) they're more likely to stick to Christianity really strongly if they come to it, and 2) it says that's better in the Bible. I don't think it is. I don't understand Islam perfectly, but to tell the truth, after reading what happens to people in the Islamic nations, I hate it. Some of the men are real monsters, and some of the stories make me want to weep for the victims. I know there's evil Christians, but these people (men mainly) use this religion as an excuse to keep the power in their hands. Some of it's also misinterpretation, but not all of it is .It's not just that either. I feel like Islam twisted Christianity and Judaism and called it 'truth'. It bugs me a lot more that something I value is made less to give support to something completely different, then when it's simply hated. At least being hated is honest in a way. There's Muslims I like, Muslims I've enjoyed reading about, Muslims I'm friends with; I don't hate them in the least. But I hate the religion.
Why do you hate it?
And if you don't mind me asking, what do you actually know about Islam?
I hate it because Muhammad twisted two other religions for money and power, and because they've made Jesus into one of their prophets, and also because there are verses that they use to mistreat women in the Middle East. I blame the Koran for having at least some part in the suffering there. If there were Jews who hated Christians because they think we stole from their religion, I wouldn't blame them, but at least you can't say Jesus didn't suffer for what He did. He died on a cross. Muhammad, so far as I can see, got tons of respect and riches, and not a lot of the pain. So to recap, I hate it: 1) For it's founder. 2) Because it disrespects the two religions I value most. 3) And for modern day suffering based off verses from it's holy book. 4) Oh, and it's a belief in their religion our Holy Book was distorted, which bugs me to no end. It sounds like a cop-out to me, and I don't see how any of them would know (and how would they know anything about Jesus anyway, if it developed a long time after His death?). What I know: Muhammad was the founder. Muslims have great reverence for him as the 'Last Prophet', though they don't consider him a god. Allah (which means 'god') is their only god, and they consider it a sin to have any others. They follow the Five Pillars, including a visit to Mecca and praying five times a day. Islam means 'submission'. In their paradise, the men have virgins, and the women are given children to care for. Muslims (at least from Saudi Arabia) don't really believe women have any sexual desires. Women aren't as valued as men, and they aren't considered mature enough to do certain things (like drive) in the Middle East. In some Middle Eastern countries, women are forced to don burqas or other less restrictive head coverings, though some Muslim women want to wear head coverings (one of my Muslim friends would wear a hijab if her mom would let her). Muhammad claimed to have a revelation from Gabriel about being the 'Last Prophet'. Muslims believe that Allah revealed it because the Bible and Torah were distorted. Muhammad is probably descended from Abraham's other son, Ishmael, who God said would become a great nation too. In some ways, Islam is incredible similar to my religion, and I don't doubt that some Muslims treat their religion much the way Christians treat theirs. I debated with a Muslim, and felt like it was like looking in a distorted mirror. Some of his beliefs mirrored mine, with different names. That helps me not to feel any resentment towards Muslims, as well as the books I've read and knowing some Muslims. But I despise the religion, because it feels like a cheapo imitation of something I love, a plastic ring in place of gold. I resent the fact a lot of people have been lied to. Honestly, you'd have to force me to stop believing in Christianity to make me stop hating Islam, or at least give me some sort of proof that Muhammad's not a liar. At least if he was just a fool who had a vision, he didn't deceive a bunch of people on purpose (that's why I'm convinced that even if Jesus lied, He's not the villain Muhammad was. Who would lie for no profit? Why wouldn't He run from the soldiers if He didn't really believe what He was talking about? Who would knowingly die for a lie, especially if it seemed all was lost?). And by the way, we don't have to test every idea to know if it's bad or good. I don't read horror because I don't need that in my head, and the only book which is slightly horrific I really regret reading (It had a scene which detailed a kid being conscious, yet paralyzed and unable to feel, while doctors took hours to strip him of his body parts. They start with the blood, then the feet, and go up from there...It's called Unwind, and now whenever I think of it, I get nauseous...)
As far as Islam's treatment of women: Women are second class citizens in some portions of the world that practice Islam, no argument. But that's not the fault of the religion. Islam revolutionized the treatment of women when it originated. Before Islam, a little girl would be lucky to see her childhood, rather than murdered on the spot for the heinous crime of being born female. rolleyes
Also remember that Muhammad was teaching his beliefs to basically a completely polytheistic group. He threatened businesses that entirely depended on people's belief in Pagan gods. He definitely put up with his share of persecution. Islam just doesn't teach the same submissive, turn the other cheek policy.
To say that Jesus got no respect is also wrong. Even when he was alive, well, many people believed he was the son of God. I would think that he got a little positive attention. Fast forward to thousands of years in the future, people are still worshiping Him. Muhammad, however, made it clear that he was not God and worshiping him is sacrilegious.
And now your list:
1) You hate Muhammad because he claimed to be God's prophet and, from any point of view that isn't Muslim, he lied. Who knows why or if he even knew, but he lied. Well... What does that say about Jesus to everyone who isn't Christian? Am I to hate Jesus for claiming to be the son of God when I don't believe that's true?
2) Muhammad claims to be God's prophet. That God spoke to him. This is something that no doubt millions of people have said over the past few thousand years. Not entirely offensive to Judaism or Christianity. Misinformed, maybe, but it's own followers claim the same thing. Jesus, however claimed to be God's son, also making him God. In Islam or Judaism, that is extremely sacrilegious and a huge no-no.
3) The idea of people twisting verses from holy texts to match their own point is nothing new. Living in a mostly Christian country (one that claims to separate church and state by the way) I can say with certainty that Christianity does it all the time. Just off of the top of my head, I can point to the dead horse called the homosexuality debate. Let's beat it, shall we? Nowhere in the Bible does it objectively say that homosexuality is wrong. And yet people still continue to twist the same few phrases without any clue of their meaning.
4) My problem with your fourth point is the same problem I had with your second point. One views the holy texts of every religion that they don't believe in as distorted.
As for what they would know about Jesus... Well, you live thousands of years after His death, and you claim to know Him very, very well. Why should these people not know about Jesus?
The point that I'm trying to make with all of my counter-arguments is that Christianity is equally- if not more- guilty of all of these. If those reasons are grounds for everyone who isn't a Muslim to hate Islam, they are also grounds for every non-Christian to hate Christianity even more.
And is that really a productive way to think? To hate rather than understand?
If you don't show tolerance to others, how can you expect them to be tolerant of you?
And Islam isn't a horror book. Clearly that book is designed to terrify and disturb you. Taking an extra step to understand Islam before condemning it only serves to enlighten you.Who's talking about other people? I don't go around telling people to hate Islam. Besides, so far as I've seen, understanding something doesn't always mean you won't hate it. I didn't hate Islam when I first heard of it. I didn't hate it after 9/11. I started to hate it after I learned more about it. 'Not the fault of the religion'? A two-second google search got me this: http://infidelsarecool.com/2008/01/11/top-10-quran-quotes-every-woman-must-see/ If I wasn't exhausted from Freshman Orientation, I could do a more thorough job then that. The prejudices against women come from the Koran, therefore the religion is[/is] at fault. Besides, even if the ideas were revolutionary at the time, they're harmful now. It's like saying we freed the slaves, so we don't have to worry about African Americans being treated fairly. The past is no reason to justify something wrong with something now.
Maybe Muhammad was persecuted, but he didn't die for what he was talking about. I consider him no better then the founder of Scientology, except that guy only misled a small group of people and those people could find out he was a liar easily enough. I think that the founder probably has difficulties too, but I think he deserves them all (and more) for making a false religion to make money off of.
Jesus claimed to be the Son of God - not a son of God (Matthew 11:27; 14:33; 16:16,17; 21:33-41; Luke 22:70; John 1:49,50; 5:19-27; 10:36,38, etc.) and not a just a prophet. Basically, Muhammad didn't bother with what He said-He just shoved Jesus out of the spotlight so he could have it. In some ways it's as bad as calling Jesus a liar, and it is disrespectful to ignore what Jesus said, so yes, I have a real problem with that.
1) At least if Jesus lied He died for it, and as I pointed out before, who willingly would let himself be killed for a lie? If Muhammad didn't know he lied, then I don't care. He didn't purposefully cause harm. If he did though, then... scream It's my pet peeve. I hate it when people do wrong things on purpose.
2) I know! The insanity of what He claimed is part of the reason why I think He wasn't lying. People just didn't say those things then, but He did, making Him either a liar, delusional/insane, or the Son of God. If He's a liar, He died a horrible death already, and He didn't really get anything good for it, so I wouldn't be mad at Him. He doesn't sound delusional/insane. So I believe the third-He's the Son of God.
CS Lewis "A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg - or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us."
3) That's misinterpretation of, at worst, a few verses. I don't even debate that anymore because I don't want to deal with it. What Muhammad did, saying the Holy Books were misinterpreted was on a much larger scale, and yes, I do take offense when it's my religion's Holy Book that it's being done to.
4) Not every religion does it with a religion they claim to be related to though. I don't care as much that you think the Bible's off because you don't claim a relationship with the religion.
Because they disregard everything He said! At least I go off the words He said that were written down by people who knew Him, or knew people who knew Him. And even going off of that, I know Him in another way by personal revelation. The Muslims I've read about who've had a revelation of Him turn from Muhammad to Him. I have at least three books about Muslims getting Saved and becoming Christians, right in the heart of the Middle East, and away from Christian influences.
Well, I don't see it as equally guilty, and I never said everyone should hate Islam anyway. I said I do. I don't think it's wrong to hate Islam, but I'm not suggesting people make hate groups and go burn down mosques either. Besides, I'd rather have people hate Christianity then just be like 'meh', because there's a Bible verse that says God wants people 'hot' or 'cold', not lukewarm. It doesn't really apply to my religion.
I don't know if it is or not. It's a feeling. I have reasons, and they're based on what I know of Islam, but it's not like I decided, I'm gonna hate it. I just do. I'm not going to try to stop hating it either, because I don't see my reasoning as bad.
I don't expect them to be tolerant of me, because I try not to expect things of people. It leads to disappointment. It might even be a good thing to be persecuted for Jesus. I think the Bible says that's a good thing, and that we should also bless those who persecute us, but I should probably go back and find that verse. (That whole reverse it thing doesn't really seem to work with Christianity... xp )
Actually, it wasn't straight out horror, or I wouldn't have bought it. That scene was the worst out of the book, which whole concept was that the pro-life people and the pro-choice people had had a Civil War in our country, with the end result being that babies couldn't be aborted, but kids from the ages of 13-17 could be 'unwound'. It was supposed to be a transition to a new state, and not death. It was interesting, but I still wish I hadn't read it.
And if an idea was just a lie, I think it's poison. If Muhammad purposefully lied, there's no chance there's any truth behind it that wasn't twisted. It's worthless, and you might as well try to find a whole truth, instead of a distorted version of one.
On your source... A site called "Infidels are cool" probably isn't a very unbiased source. It's pretty easy to find incriminating verses like this. I can do it too.
The Bible's idea of women reflects society's view at the time. Our culture changed, not the Bible.
The Quran's rules towards women are actually an improvement on the treatment of women in biblical times.
You see: "The Quran only allows women half of the inheritance that her brothers would receive."
I see: "The Quran guarantees women an inheritance that she would have otherwise surely been denied."
You see: "The Quran allows for polygamy because it treats women as property."
I see: "The Quran allows for polygamy because in Muhammad's time, an unmarried woman would have no hope of supporting herself."
Is the Quran behind the times as far as the treatment of women? Yeah. Is the Bible just as behind, if not more? You bet.
So... It's just okay to call Muhammad a liar... But calling Jesus a liar is grounds for hate?
1&2) I'm aware that I'm a little different than the other kids. I tend to attract social deviants like a freaking magnet. But I've certainly met people who would lie like that for infamy in death rather than invisibility in life. What are cults? That's how those happen, some manipulative, charismatic guy claims that he is magic in whatever way and can give his followers some supernatural reward in return for their unquestioning devotion.
And I think the only reason some of my friends haven't tried it is because it would be far too hard to get anyone to believe them now.
In my book, they are both equally charismatic leaders. Whether they were mislead, or lying, or delusional, it really doesn't matter. I don't think either did so with malicious intent. I think their abilities were blown out of proportion, the way all legends are.
And I think that the only reason you see Jesus as benevolent and Muhammad as evil in the scenario that both of them are wrong is because you are trained to.
3) The twisting of holy texts to fit one's point is the fault of the person twisting it. Not the religion. The holy texts of all of the Abrahamic religions were written thousands of years ago in a different culture. And they reflect the views of that culture. We can't be surprised when they include verses on violence, slavery, etc that doesn't have a place in the modern world anymore. The problem with most religions comes when people try to say that they follow their texts literally and unquestioningly.
4) People aren't hot and cold. Or black and white. Or good and evil. Everyone is working towards what they see as good. Nobody tries to be evil. Christianity stresses dualism, which is why I think that it's particularly easy for Christians to view people as the kind of villains from old cartoons. Tying damsels to the tracks, twisting symbolically evil mustaches, taking breaks from the plot to remind us how evil they are. But people simply aren't like that. And almost always, if we take extra steps to understand why they're doing what they're doing, we can understand.
I think it's particularly hard for me to grasp the concept of just allowing oneself to hate a religion because I go to such painstaking lengths to tolerate other religions. As an atheist, it is so hard not to be condescending. I see church creeping dangerously far into state. I see theists proselytizing, holding a holy book they haven't bothered to read. And it takes a lot of work and self-restraint to not just tell them off. And I don't do it because it's fun. It's a lot more fun to be an arrogant, sarcastic jerk to everyone. But hatred accomplishes nothing. So it's hard for me to wrap my head around just throwing all of that tolerance out the window.
Can you at least agree that it would be a better world if we could expect respect and tolerance from people who disagree with us rather than resentment and hate?
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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:54 am
xxEverBluexx Chieftain Twilight xxEverBluexx Shadows-shine I haven't really noticed it. I know of people who are anti-Islam, but I haven't seen America as a whole moving in that direction. I suppose though, the same could be said about all religions, different parts of America are anti-Christian, anti-Jew, etc. I haven't either. I actually think America's a little too tolerant of different ideas sometimes... how can america be too tolerant of different ideas? confused that's what america was founded on: Radicalism! i think that american Conservatives should remember their roots and uphold the Constitution of Rights and the Declaration of Independence, while Liberals should speak up for the Personal Rights and Freedoms that those documents stand for. we are AMERICA! we are supposed to be a Progressive, Tolerant, Safe-Haven where people can worship freely, speak freely, defend themselves, and earn an honest living from the sweat of their brows! We weren't all that tolerant from the beginning actually. I don't know about Muslims in American history, but we've done a lot of judging, especially based on race. I've even got some ancestors that were judged ('No Irish need apply'? I'm Irish), and I have completely European roots. African-Americans were thought of as animals at one point, and where do you think the laws against homosexuality came from? Not to mention what was thought of a girl who became pregnant. Some of them were forced to marry the guy, even the if he raped her. Even the founding fathers didn't think everyone was equal: woman didn't have equal rights, and black men were valued as 3/5 of a person. We celebrate diversity now, but once it was only the white men who had all the rights you're talking about. I'm not saying that was right, just that those rights were for one specific race and gender. I don't think America embraces intolerance more than anything else, at least not when it comes to race, sexual orientation, or religion. I could name a few different things we embrace more, like capitalism. It might just be what part of the country the both of us live in. My state's really liberal, so anyone who judges is really likely to be more judged, especially if they judge based on religion, race or sexual preference. Anyways...I really don't think it's wrong to be intolerant towards an idea, as long as you aren't being intolerant towards the people under the idea. I've actually got to say, I think people have gotten too open-minded. You can take anything too far, and that's the way I feel America is about accepting new ideas. 'Open-minded' is a compliment, 'close-minded' an insult. Well, when taken to extremes they're both bad things, but people need to have some non-negotiable convictions. americans have been intolerant, yes. but america itself was founded on principles that went against this. that's the reason the republican party was formed. to remind people what the Founding Fathers laid down in print as what america stands for. nowadays you look to a conservative republican american and you don't feel a call-back to a time of the forst Republican President, Abraham Lincoln, and his valiant speaches about Unity and Equality and Freedom and Justice.... you see this racist, ignorant, theocratically-minded rabble of ******** who DARE call themselves the "Grand Old Party". it's an insult to what it means to be Republican! so to say that america used to be racist and sexist and bible-thumping is no excuse to continue to encourage it today. america was founded on the idea that those things are wrong, and many attempts have been throughout our history to stay Loyal to those Principles. i do understand what you say about extremes, and i consider myself a Moderate for that exact reason. but i think you are taking it out of context. we can't allow religious ideas to rule our nation. we can't allow ourselves to become a christian nation, or to subjugate Muslims. Islam is not about sexism. in fact, it states very clearly how unrighteous that is! sexism is to Islam what Homosexuality is to christianity. the hot debate. the issue railed about in the name of the religion but without any actual religious verses or suras to back it up. the sexism in Muslim nations is a Cultural thing, not a religious thing. some Muslim nations don't have sexist stereotypes in their legislation at all!
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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:17 am
xxEverBluexx brainnsoup xxEverBluexx Chieftain Twilight xxEverBluexx Shadows-shine I haven't really noticed it. I know of people who are anti-Islam, but I haven't seen America as a whole moving in that direction. I suppose though, the same could be said about all religions, different parts of America are anti-Christian, anti-Jew, etc. I haven't either. I actually think America's a little too tolerant of different ideas sometimes... how can america be too tolerant of different ideas? confused that's what america was founded on: Radicalism! i think that american Conservatives should remember their roots and uphold the Constitution of Rights and the Declaration of Independence, while Liberals should speak up for the Personal Rights and Freedoms that those documents stand for. we are AMERICA! we are supposed to be a Progressive, Tolerant, Safe-Haven where people can worship freely, speak freely, defend themselves, and earn an honest living from the sweat of their brows! We weren't all that tolerant from the beginning actually. I don't know about Muslims in American history, but we've done a lot of judging, especially based on race. I've even got some ancestors that were judged ('No Irish need apply'? I'm Irish), and I have completely European roots. African-Americans were thought of as animals at one point, and where do you think the laws against homosexuality came from? Not to mention what was thought of a girl who became pregnant. Some of them were forced to marry the guy, even the if he raped her. Even the founding fathers didn't think everyone was equal: woman didn't have equal rights, and black men were valued as 3/5 of a person. We celebrate diversity now, but once it was only the white men who had all the rights you're talking about. I'm not saying that was right, just that those rights were for one specific race and gender. I don't think America embraces intolerance more than anything else, at least not when it comes to race, sexual orientation, or religion. I could name a few different things we embrace more, like capitalism. It might just be what part of the country the both of us live in. My state's really liberal, so anyone who judges is really likely to be more judged, especially if they judge based on religion, race or sexual preference. Anyways...I really don't think it's wrong to be intolerant towards an idea, as long as you aren't being intolerant towards the people under the idea. I've actually got to say, I think people have gotten too open-minded. You can take anything too far, and that's the way I feel America is about accepting new ideas. 'Open-minded' is a compliment, 'close-minded' an insult. Well, when taken to extremes they're both bad things, but people need to have some non-negotiable convictions.
And you can't separate an idea from it's followers then it's something so personal. Religion, sexual orientation, many people define themselves by those things. So even without making laws, proclaiming your hate for that thing is hurtful.
When you enforce that hatred with laws on top of it, then it's something that those people simply can't ignore anymore. If you make laws against homosexuality, naturally it will affect and oppress homosexuals. Make laws against Islam, oppress Muslim. etc.
You can't support laws against Islam (and the rights of its followers) and expect to be okay with Muslims. Especially because its a religion that demands an incredibly amount of devotion and loyalty.
Also, there's a difference between open-minded and naive. Naive is giving terrorists a secret base for them to scheme and plan another attack. Open-minded is stopping to think that maybe these people aren't in fact terrorists and American citizens looking for religious freedom in a country that so proudly promises it and looking into it before dismissing them.I'm just saying, it's not exactly something we were founded on if it took us this long to get to this point. This is probably the first place I've said I hate Islam at all publicly. I wouldn't say it to anyone I didn't trust in real life, and I don't think I'd ever say it to a Muslim in real life, especially not this bluntly. And who said anything about laws? I'm not going to encourage people to hate it, and I wouldn't act on my hatred of the religion (seriously, if anyone ever said I could make the laws regarding Islam, I'd decline), because I'm not out to harm that religion's followers. I might rejoice people step away from Islam, tell people what I find is wrong with it, etc., but that's the furthest I'd go. I just don't think being 'open-minded' is a great compliment. We're embracing that attitude so much, that it's apparently wrong for me to hate a religion (because I might offend someone rolleyes ), even if that doesn't include the followers, and I don't mean to act on it. Is it wrong for me to like certain cultures more then others? Why is it wrong for me to dislike a religion I know about if it doesn't affect anyone else? If I find a like one ethnic group a little more then another because of something like an accent, is that wrong? If I tell my little sister not to be so close to her bi friend who says she thinks she's cute (and also that she'd date her) more then once, is that wrong? the amount of time it takes for the people of a nation to actually follow what their Constitution and Declaration state has nothing to do with whether or not the nation itself was founded on those statements. america was founded on Liberty, Equality and Justice for All. we havn't been following through with that, true. but it is what america was founded on, and it is still what we are supposed to be. and instead of giving up on that and accepting that the way of life is prejiduce and bigotry, we should strive for Integrity, not mediocrity! and no, it isn't wrong for you to say whatever the hell you want, to express your opinions and felings. but it also is not wrong for us to have our retorts, to speak up as well. when someone feels offended they have a right to speak and act in responce,as long as they don't trample on another person's Liberty or Rights (including the person who offended them). if a person is a racist, they have a right to call a black person a ******. that black person has the right to get a restraining order. if the racist said it on a radio show, the black person has the right to call the producer of that show and tell them tha and that they won't listen to the show anymore if that continues, which could get the racist fired. that's all legal. the racist does not have a right to spray-paint "******" on a black person's house (that's vandalism), nor does he have the right to refuse to hire the black person or to refuse service to him in a business he owns based on him being black (that's discrimination). and the black person doesn't have the right to threaten with violence (that's conspiracy to commit assault, or conspiracy to commit murder). so you have every right to say what you want, and so do we. as long as it doesn't break the law. also, i don't approve of someone saying something as serious as that they hate Islam online, but not in person or to a Muslim. i suppose i can understand it, but i'm just the blunt person who isn't politically correct. to make an example, i don't like the NAACP. i think they take it too far. i don't think that businesses should be required to have a set minimum number of employees of minority races, i don't think that we should offer so many extras to people based off of them being minorities. it only encourages more of the racism. i didn't enslave and mistreat any black people and deny them civil rights. and in fact, i have unofficially enslaved white people, and still treated them as the citizens that they are. i still treated them like property, but i certainly wasn't basing anything on race. and i'd not be afraid to have a black slave if i knew i could keep that slave away from anything he or she could use to escape with or cause me harm with. you can call me a racist if you want. you can make fun of how i'm from the south and am ok with slavery. but i know i'm not a racist, and i know i believe in equality and liberty. i know that i wouldn't try to repeal the amendments that made slavery illegal. and i'd rather not claim my ownership of my slaves when i'm within the city limits of any on-the-map city in america.
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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:04 pm
brainnsoup xxEverBluexx brainnsoup xxEverBluexx brainnsoup Well let's start with this:
Why do you hate it?
And if you don't mind me asking, what do you actually know about Islam?
I hate it because Muhammad twisted two other religions for money and power, and because they've made Jesus into one of their prophets, and also because there are verses that they use to mistreat women in the Middle East. I blame the Koran for having at least some part in the suffering there. If there were Jews who hated Christians because they think we stole from their religion, I wouldn't blame them, but at least you can't say Jesus didn't suffer for what He did. He died on a cross. Muhammad, so far as I can see, got tons of respect and riches, and not a lot of the pain. So to recap, I hate it: 1) For it's founder. 2) Because it disrespects the two religions I value most. 3) And for modern day suffering based off verses from it's holy book. 4) Oh, and it's a belief in their religion our Holy Book was distorted, which bugs me to no end. It sounds like a cop-out to me, and I don't see how any of them would know (and how would they know anything about Jesus anyway, if it developed a long time after His death?). What I know: Muhammad was the founder. Muslims have great reverence for him as the 'Last Prophet', though they don't consider him a god. Allah (which means 'god') is their only god, and they consider it a sin to have any others. They follow the Five Pillars, including a visit to Mecca and praying five times a day. Islam means 'submission'. In their paradise, the men have virgins, and the women are given children to care for. Muslims (at least from Saudi Arabia) don't really believe women have any sexual desires. Women aren't as valued as men, and they aren't considered mature enough to do certain things (like drive) in the Middle East. In some Middle Eastern countries, women are forced to don burqas or other less restrictive head coverings, though some Muslim women want to wear head coverings (one of my Muslim friends would wear a hijab if her mom would let her). Muhammad claimed to have a revelation from Gabriel about being the 'Last Prophet'. Muslims believe that Allah revealed it because the Bible and Torah were distorted. Muhammad is probably descended from Abraham's other son, Ishmael, who God said would become a great nation too. In some ways, Islam is incredible similar to my religion, and I don't doubt that some Muslims treat their religion much the way Christians treat theirs. I debated with a Muslim, and felt like it was like looking in a distorted mirror. Some of his beliefs mirrored mine, with different names. That helps me not to feel any resentment towards Muslims, as well as the books I've read and knowing some Muslims. But I despise the religion, because it feels like a cheapo imitation of something I love, a plastic ring in place of gold. I resent the fact a lot of people have been lied to. Honestly, you'd have to force me to stop believing in Christianity to make me stop hating Islam, or at least give me some sort of proof that Muhammad's not a liar. At least if he was just a fool who had a vision, he didn't deceive a bunch of people on purpose (that's why I'm convinced that even if Jesus lied, He's not the villain Muhammad was. Who would lie for no profit? Why wouldn't He run from the soldiers if He didn't really believe what He was talking about? Who would knowingly die for a lie, especially if it seemed all was lost?). And by the way, we don't have to test every idea to know if it's bad or good. I don't read horror because I don't need that in my head, and the only book which is slightly horrific I really regret reading (It had a scene which detailed a kid being conscious, yet paralyzed and unable to feel, while doctors took hours to strip him of his body parts. They start with the blood, then the feet, and go up from there...It's called Unwind, and now whenever I think of it, I get nauseous...)
As far as Islam's treatment of women: Women are second class citizens in some portions of the world that practice Islam, no argument. But that's not the fault of the religion. Islam revolutionized the treatment of women when it originated. Before Islam, a little girl would be lucky to see her childhood, rather than murdered on the spot for the heinous crime of being born female. rolleyes
Also remember that Muhammad was teaching his beliefs to basically a completely polytheistic group. He threatened businesses that entirely depended on people's belief in Pagan gods. He definitely put up with his share of persecution. Islam just doesn't teach the same submissive, turn the other cheek policy.
To say that Jesus got no respect is also wrong. Even when he was alive, well, many people believed he was the son of God. I would think that he got a little positive attention. Fast forward to thousands of years in the future, people are still worshiping Him. Muhammad, however, made it clear that he was not God and worshiping him is sacrilegious.
And now your list:
1) You hate Muhammad because he claimed to be God's prophet and, from any point of view that isn't Muslim, he lied. Who knows why or if he even knew, but he lied. Well... What does that say about Jesus to everyone who isn't Christian? Am I to hate Jesus for claiming to be the son of God when I don't believe that's true?
2) Muhammad claims to be God's prophet. That God spoke to him. This is something that no doubt millions of people have said over the past few thousand years. Not entirely offensive to Judaism or Christianity. Misinformed, maybe, but it's own followers claim the same thing. Jesus, however claimed to be God's son, also making him God. In Islam or Judaism, that is extremely sacrilegious and a huge no-no.
3) The idea of people twisting verses from holy texts to match their own point is nothing new. Living in a mostly Christian country (one that claims to separate church and state by the way) I can say with certainty that Christianity does it all the time. Just off of the top of my head, I can point to the dead horse called the homosexuality debate. Let's beat it, shall we? Nowhere in the Bible does it objectively say that homosexuality is wrong. And yet people still continue to twist the same few phrases without any clue of their meaning.
4) My problem with your fourth point is the same problem I had with your second point. One views the holy texts of every religion that they don't believe in as distorted.
As for what they would know about Jesus... Well, you live thousands of years after His death, and you claim to know Him very, very well. Why should these people not know about Jesus?
The point that I'm trying to make with all of my counter-arguments is that Christianity is equally- if not more- guilty of all of these. If those reasons are grounds for everyone who isn't a Muslim to hate Islam, they are also grounds for every non-Christian to hate Christianity even more.
And is that really a productive way to think? To hate rather than understand?
If you don't show tolerance to others, how can you expect them to be tolerant of you?
And Islam isn't a horror book. Clearly that book is designed to terrify and disturb you. Taking an extra step to understand Islam before condemning it only serves to enlighten you.Who's talking about other people? I don't go around telling people to hate Islam. Besides, so far as I've seen, understanding something doesn't always mean you won't hate it. I didn't hate Islam when I first heard of it. I didn't hate it after 9/11. I started to hate it after I learned more about it. 'Not the fault of the religion'? A two-second google search got me this: http://infidelsarecool.com/2008/01/11/top-10-quran-quotes-every-woman-must-see/ If I wasn't exhausted from Freshman Orientation, I could do a more thorough job then that. The prejudices against women come from the Koran, therefore the religion is[/is] at fault. Besides, even if the ideas were revolutionary at the time, they're harmful now. It's like saying we freed the slaves, so we don't have to worry about African Americans being treated fairly. The past is no reason to justify something wrong with something now.
Maybe Muhammad was persecuted, but he didn't die for what he was talking about. I consider him no better then the founder of Scientology, except that guy only misled a small group of people and those people could find out he was a liar easily enough. I think that the founder probably has difficulties too, but I think he deserves them all (and more) for making a false religion to make money off of.
Jesus claimed to be the Son of God - not a son of God (Matthew 11:27; 14:33; 16:16,17; 21:33-41; Luke 22:70; John 1:49,50; 5:19-27; 10:36,38, etc.) and not a just a prophet. Basically, Muhammad didn't bother with what He said-He just shoved Jesus out of the spotlight so he could have it. In some ways it's as bad as calling Jesus a liar, and it is disrespectful to ignore what Jesus said, so yes, I have a real problem with that.
1) At least if Jesus lied He died for it, and as I pointed out before, who willingly would let himself be killed for a lie? If Muhammad didn't know he lied, then I don't care. He didn't purposefully cause harm. If he did though, then... scream It's my pet peeve. I hate it when people do wrong things on purpose.
2) I know! The insanity of what He claimed is part of the reason why I think He wasn't lying. People just didn't say those things then, but He did, making Him either a liar, delusional/insane, or the Son of God. If He's a liar, He died a horrible death already, and He didn't really get anything good for it, so I wouldn't be mad at Him. He doesn't sound delusional/insane. So I believe the third-He's the Son of God.
CS Lewis "A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg - or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us."
3) That's misinterpretation of, at worst, a few verses. I don't even debate that anymore because I don't want to deal with it. What Muhammad did, saying the Holy Books were misinterpreted was on a much larger scale, and yes, I do take offense when it's my religion's Holy Book that it's being done to.
4) Not every religion does it with a religion they claim to be related to though. I don't care as much that you think the Bible's off because you don't claim a relationship with the religion.
Because they disregard everything He said! At least I go off the words He said that were written down by people who knew Him, or knew people who knew Him. And even going off of that, I know Him in another way by personal revelation. The Muslims I've read about who've had a revelation of Him turn from Muhammad to Him. I have at least three books about Muslims getting Saved and becoming Christians, right in the heart of the Middle East, and away from Christian influences.
Well, I don't see it as equally guilty, and I never said everyone should hate Islam anyway. I said I do. I don't think it's wrong to hate Islam, but I'm not suggesting people make hate groups and go burn down mosques either. Besides, I'd rather have people hate Christianity then just be like 'meh', because there's a Bible verse that says God wants people 'hot' or 'cold', not lukewarm. It doesn't really apply to my religion.
I don't know if it is or not. It's a feeling. I have reasons, and they're based on what I know of Islam, but it's not like I decided, I'm gonna hate it. I just do. I'm not going to try to stop hating it either, because I don't see my reasoning as bad.
I don't expect them to be tolerant of me, because I try not to expect things of people. It leads to disappointment. It might even be a good thing to be persecuted for Jesus. I think the Bible says that's a good thing, and that we should also bless those who persecute us, but I should probably go back and find that verse. (That whole reverse it thing doesn't really seem to work with Christianity... xp )
Actually, it wasn't straight out horror, or I wouldn't have bought it. That scene was the worst out of the book, which whole concept was that the pro-life people and the pro-choice people had had a Civil War in our country, with the end result being that babies couldn't be aborted, but kids from the ages of 13-17 could be 'unwound'. It was supposed to be a transition to a new state, and not death. It was interesting, but I still wish I hadn't read it.
And if an idea was just a lie, I think it's poison. If Muhammad purposefully lied, there's no chance there's any truth behind it that wasn't twisted. It's worthless, and you might as well try to find a whole truth, instead of a distorted version of one.
On your source... A site called "Infidels are cool" probably isn't a very unbiased source. It's pretty easy to find incriminating verses like this. I can do it too.
The Bible's idea of women reflects society's view at the time. Our culture changed, not the Bible.
The Quran's rules towards women are actually an improvement on the treatment of women in biblical times.
You see: "The Quran only allows women half of the inheritance that her brothers would receive."
I see: "The Quran guarantees women an inheritance that she would have otherwise surely been denied."
You see: "The Quran allows for polygamy because it treats women as property."
I see: "The Quran allows for polygamy because in Muhammad's time, an unmarried woman would have no hope of supporting herself."
Is the Quran behind the times as far as the treatment of women? Yeah. Is the Bible just as behind, if not more? You bet.
So... It's just okay to call Muhammad a liar... But calling Jesus a liar is grounds for hate?
1&2) I'm aware that I'm a little different than the other kids. I tend to attract social deviants like a freaking magnet. But I've certainly met people who would lie like that for infamy in death rather than invisibility in life. What are cults? That's how those happen, some manipulative, charismatic guy claims that he is magic in whatever way and can give his followers some supernatural reward in return for their unquestioning devotion.
And I think the only reason some of my friends haven't tried it is because it would be far too hard to get anyone to believe them now.
In my book, they are both equally charismatic leaders. Whether they were mislead, or lying, or delusional, it really doesn't matter. I don't think either did so with malicious intent. I think their abilities were blown out of proportion, the way all legends are.
And I think that the only reason you see Jesus as benevolent and Muhammad as evil in the scenario that both of them are wrong is because you are trained to.
3) The twisting of holy texts to fit one's point is the fault of the person twisting it. Not the religion. The holy texts of all of the Abrahamic religions were written thousands of years ago in a different culture. And they reflect the views of that culture. We can't be surprised when they include verses on violence, slavery, etc that doesn't have a place in the modern world anymore. The problem with most religions comes when people try to say that they follow their texts literally and unquestioningly.
4) People aren't hot and cold. Or black and white. Or good and evil. Everyone is working towards what they see as good. Nobody tries to be evil. Christianity stresses dualism, which is why I think that it's particularly easy for Christians to view people as the kind of villains from old cartoons. Tying damsels to the tracks, twisting symbolically evil mustaches, taking breaks from the plot to remind us how evil they are. But people simply aren't like that. And almost always, if we take extra steps to understand why they're doing what they're doing, we can understand.
I think it's particularly hard for me to grasp the concept of just allowing oneself to hate a religion because I go to such painstaking lengths to tolerate other religions. As an atheist, it is so hard not to be condescending. I see church creeping dangerously far into state. I see theists proselytizing, holding a holy book they haven't bothered to read. And it takes a lot of work and self-restraint to not just tell them off. And I don't do it because it's fun. It's a lot more fun to be an arrogant, sarcastic jerk to everyone. But hatred accomplishes nothing. So it's hard for me to wrap my head around just throwing all of that tolerance out the window.
Can you at least agree that it would be a better world if we could expect respect and tolerance from people who disagree with us rather than resentment and hate?That's their problem them. I'm not gonna change to make other people more comfortable. razz [/shurgs] I said it was, what, a ten-second google search? I'm not gonna do anything more extensive, until I have more sleep and time on my hands. My quick rebuttals: This handle the first one. The second one, well there's other things that God does that don't seem right from our limited view, but I think He'll have an explanation when we meet Him. I'm not gonna try to justify OT stuff, because...well, that would take me forever and I doubt anyone besides God can explain all His actions then. Three is OT. Four is about God taking revenge for His people. He said of the Jews, those who curse you will be cursed, and those who bless you will be blessed, and Christians are not supposed to be vengeful because God will judge for us. He's doing as He said He would. It never said God approved of what happened in five, and again, four and five are OT anyway. Again, for six, didn't say God approved. Seven was a stupid vow on Jephthat's part...and again, OT. Eight was a test. Issac wasn't killed, and wouldn't have been killed, because either God would have stopped Abraham, or Abraham wouldn't have done it. This explains nine. And the last paragraph of this explains ten. So basically, it was all: taken out of context, from the OT, or something God didn't necessarily approve of. Can you explain the Koran verses? Actually, I think the Koran's more far behind considering that Christians don't really obey OT laws, well the Koran still expects it's version of the OT laws to be obeyed. And I do think men should be the head of the household, but I'll go into why some time later. From your point of view, they both taught things that weren't exactly true, right? From mine, one taught the truth first, and the other distorted it to get money and respect. I can see why you wouldn't hate them, but this is one of those things where belief plays in. I hate, because to me it's terrible to mislead so many. As I said before, I don't tell others to hate it (including you), but I'm also not coming from your point of view. From where I'm standing it's fine to call Muhammad a liar because that's what he was, while it's not fine to call Jesus a liar because He's not. Get it? 1/2) They wanted Jesus to become the new king of Israel. That's what they thought being a Messiah meant, and He would've known that. He had backing. If He just wanted to be famous, why didn't He make a bid for power and tell the nation He was God? Japanese emperors, were considered gods, if I remember correctly. It wouldn't have been that strange. Jesus wasn't charismatic. Actually, He was probably pretty average looking, easy to miss...I mean, they had to ask Judas for a sign to pick Him out among the disciples! That doesn't speak of a stand out type of guy. It matters to me because it's people's spiritual lives in the balence. And if they blew what Jesus did out of proportion, they did it very quickly. If three of the four gospels were written by people who knew Him personally, and they didn't get together to make sure they all exaggerated the same things, then that's either a really strange coincidence, or it all really happened. [/sigh] I know you do. And I think you don't want to think any religion is any better then any other, which I think is silly. razz 3) Maybe, but it feels wrong to hate people. I can hate ideas, or results of actions, but I don't even hate Muhammad. I just hate the stupid, twisted religion he created. razz Except Christians are supposed to follow the NT more then the OT, which means we don't have to do the violent things the OT advocates to follow our religion. The Koran doesn't have that separation, so Muslims have to follow those laws, or they're being wishy-washy. 4) No, Christianity just advocates standing for either good or evil, instead of being in the middle. It acknowledges that people are both good and bad. There are verses that say we're a little lower then God, saints, kings, but there are also verses which attack us for being less then we should be. God just wants us to be good because...I actually am not going to explain why it's better to be good. I shouldn't have to. I can't embrace tolerance the way you do. I admire the fact you do, and it's the stance I'd want if I was an atheist, but the Bible says Jesus is the only way, so I can't accept other religions as equal. It's against my religion, which I'm not willing to compromise, because Jesus is worth more to me then a tolerant attitude. Yeah, of course. I'm debating here, instead of in the forums because I'm scared I'll find people there who'll be insulting, and then I'll get insulting too, and it'll be bad (I probably shouldn't even be debating here. I found a verse in the NT (MSG) that says Jesus doesn't want you to be pushy or offensive, and I probably get that way sometimes.). At least here, most of the people won't be nasty. Besides, it's also against my religion to hate and/or resent people.
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