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 Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:53 am
This is a debate we were having on another thread. Here's a new thread, just for this debate. To see the start of that debate, please see the What Convictions Do U Have thread, but if you have something to reply to one of the posts relating to this debate, do it here. Here is Spike's most recent post: Spike Zantren Overall, I think your post was full of weak excuses, but I'll address them. I mean no disrespect, but we're called to expose heretics in the mainstream.
Voldemort point two Okay, I guess you're right about the rock salute thing being a salute to Satan in the past. But just because the founder of the Church of Satan used it doesn't mean it's like that forever. The Swastika was used by Hindus before it was used by Hitler. Does that mean every time it's used, it is for protection from evil spirits? No; it's the Nazi sign.
Dodging my point. The rock salute was never just a "rock" salute. It was always used in rock music as a salute to the "God of Rock." It's never been an okay sign.
Voldemort point two The stars look like stars on that picture. Which song is it?
Even if they were just stars, they'd still be satanic. Remember Lucifer means "The Morning Star." But these are six-pointed hexagrams, which are occultic, and she's wearing a red robe used in witchcraft. It's from "That's What Love is For."
Voldemort point two Okay, so dc Talk said they liked something. They didn't even say they LIKED the video of the monkey, they said they liked some of his work. They didn't say they liked the Closer video.
Touché. However, most of NIN's music is anti-christian, not just that video.
Voldemort point two And might I add, crosses were used as torture weapons WAY before they were used for Jesus. They were STILL torture weapons in the Crusades, where the Catholics put them on their shields.
The cross is still an important part of Christianity, and Nine Inch Nails has plenty of other blasphemous things in their music. They don't care if it was used by Rome, they still think they're attacking a symbol of Christianity, and the motive is important. Take for example the beginning lyrics of their song "Terrible Lie":
Quote: Hey god, why are you doing this to me?
Am I not living up to what Im supposed to be?
Why am I seething with this animosity?
Hey god, I think you owe me a great big apology
Terrible lie
Terrible lie
Terrible lie
Terrible lie
Hey god, I really dont know what you mean.
Seems like salvation comes only in our dreams.
I feel my hatred grow all the more extreme.
Hey god, can this world really be as sad as it seems Voldemort point two It was like running around with an Iron Maiden for protection.
Did Christ die on a cross or in an Iron Maiden?
Voldemort point two So yeah, how is that blasphemous? I'll admit I haven't seen the video so I don't know, but I don't get it from just that picture.
I've shown you some of the band's lyrics. It's obviously an anti-Christian band. Here's a selection from their song "Heresy":Quote: "He sewed his eyes shut because he is afraid to see He tries to tell me what i put inside of me He's got the answers to ease my curiosity He dreamed up a god and called it christianity
Your god is dead and no one cares
If there is a hell I will see you there…"Voldemort point two Haha, yes. The Beatles are a wicked secular group. Proof? John Lennon "Jesus, a garlic-eating, stinking little yellow, greasy fascist b*****d catholic Spaniard." (John Lennon, A Spaniard in the Works, p.14) "Christianity will go, it will vanish and shrink. I needn't argue about that. I'm right and will be proved right. You just wait.. . .We're more powerfull than Jesus ever was.." - John Lennon
The Beatles song "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" is a subliminal message. The initials of the song are "LSD." They did drugs, there's no debate there, and they put messages in their songs often.
Voldemort point two ...And, dc Talk took something which was probably anti-Christian (the song) and made it good.
Proof?
Voldemort point two You know the word Christian was originally an insult?
Yes, the Jews called the early believers "Christians" because they didn't want to be associated with them, but that has nothing to do with this subject.
Voldemort point two Okay, they covered a song by a band whose old lead singer had strange decorating habbits. Wow, that's almost like they're not condeming it!
...Dead babies being hanged... I don't want to sound offensive, but that's a stupid excuse and a severe understatement.
Voldemort point two Wow, if they don't run around ramming Bibles down people's throats, they must be evil, right?
Straw Man. Don't put words in my mouth.
Voldemort point two Anyway, why is covering a song by someone who took drugs bad? If they can make the song mean something good, then it's a good thing, right?
It's not the drugs, it's the groups that were involved in the occult.
Voldemort point two (That also applies to the chopped up babies thing. Also on the topic of chopped up babies: so, the album has pictures of chopped up babies on. Does that mean the song is made of chopped up babies?).
Why don't we make an album about abortion and put chopped up babies on it and praise abortion? stare Voldemort point two That article seems to be saying "NUUUU, COBAIN'Z EVULZZZ!!!!11111ONEONE", nothing about dc Talk. Well, there is something about dc Talk, but none of it is bad. Only that they're associated with people who are associated with people who are associated with evil.
Manson isn't just associated with Anton LaVey, he's also an actual member of the Church of Satan.
The fact that these people were their rolemodels plays a part in it.
Voldemort point two Yeah, we live in a sinful world, I'm sure if you keep making links, everyone's linked to Satan!
These aren't stringed links, these are direct ones. It's not as weak as you make it out to be.
Voldemort point two I'd like to say again: THEY NEVER SAID THEY LIKED THE VIDEO WITH THE CRUCIFIED MONKEY ON IT.
Almost ALL of Nine Inch Nails' music is satanic.
Voldemort point two Anyway, if you're talking about it, you must have watched "this kind of blasphemy", right?
Ad hominem. This isn't about me. I don't listen to this crap any longer.
Voldemort point two Onto the Manson thing: I go to school with non-Christians. And you know what? I've talked about music with some of them! I even discussed music with a Satanist once. Terrible, isn't it?
You know what, so have I! Does that make it okay?
Voldemort point two EDIT: in retrospect, I probably should have used quotes... sweatdrop
No comment.Voldemort point two EDITx2: Sorry if some of my points sounded rude. That's how I get my points accross.
I think you did come off a bit rude, but this isn't about you, it's about your argument.Voldemort point two EDITx3: Why don't you spend your time arguing against things that are anti-Christian without ANY tennuous links, like The Shack?
Because I've never heard of The Shack.Voldemort point two EDITx4: How is wanting to discuss 80's music being equally yoked together?
Read the rest of the verse:
"for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"Voldemort point two EDITx5: So what's wrong with being with a member of the Church of Satan? Jesus ate with tax collectors and sinners. Is it not the sick that need a doctor?
Preaching to non-believers is not equal to discussing music with satanist artists. There's a distinct difference.Voldemort point two Also: (different post because I've already got loads of edits), where do you get your "this band is satanic" articles from? It's not by Jack Chick, is it?
No, it's not by Jack Chick. I've gathered it from sources and a picture says a thousand words, which is why I include them in my posts. I do not agree with everything from the places where I get the information, because some of their arguments are weak and I don't buy them. However, with Amy Grant using occultic symbolism in her music videos, it's obvious to me that she's a wolf in sheep's clothing. Just because people claim to be Christians doesn't mean that they are.
Matthew 7:16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles?
It's hard to keep up with your posts since you keep editing every five seconds. neutral ...and here is Haven's most recent: Haven923 I'm sorry if I sound simple, but this crap is flat-out stupid. Most of these things have no grounds at all! Most of this looks like the result of gulibility. I'm not going to dive deep and make sources. Partly because I'm lazy, but mostly because my computer sucks and would die if I went through that many searches. Let us begin.... NOTE: I'm not going to quote who said these things, but just take them as general statements. 1. The "Demon Horns" (Original name), dubbed here as the "Rock Salute." The demon horns gesture was orignaly made by a popular rock artist. Since then, it has exploded in popularity, and, like all things that do that, has been changed. It is a gesture given in approval of rock music or to tell somebody to "rock on." It is not simply a demonic "salute" to Satan. It is an icon of an entire genre and culture. Spike said that it is ".... always used in the rock industry as a salute to Satan." That is simply ignorance and an opinion. 2. Amy Grant being a "Wolf in Sheep's Clothing." Amy Grant is one of the most notable Christian artists. A little food for fact, most music videos are made by the director and writer with only some feedback from the artist. Most of the time, the artist just picks an idea from a list that the director and writer give to them. Did you realize that teh Jewish Star of David, their most notable symbol, is in fact a six-pointed star. Does this mean that all Jews are worshipers of Satan? Last time I checked, they worshiped God. P.S. I'm pretty sure that a hexogram has distinguished lines for it's outline. The ones on Grant's hands are solid with no lines. 3. Just because a Christian artist associates with a secular artist, it doesn't mean that they are hypocrites. Several of my good friends who have a local Christian band play in bar rooms all the time. This is an act of ministry for them. They are doing as God commands us and reaching out. UnderOATH is in the Warped Tour with many secular bands. Doesn't mean that they have disowned God. Because a band appreciates an anti-Christian band, it doesn't mean they are anti-Christian. I am a musician, and as such have a great deal of respect for music. I don't like all music, but I still can appreciate it for what it is. Music is an extremely complex thing. You have to have a great deal of knowledge of it in order to write a decent song. You can respect many artists simply for their unique use of musical theory (the laws and guidelines to music) in their music. People like Marilyn Manson have a huge impact on the musical world and for that, demand respect. You can talk with them but not believe what they believe. P.S. I have an aquantence who labels himself as a Satanist. He is a cool person, doesn't do wrong to people, and his favorite music is Christian Hardcore!! 4. Spike said that rock was originally a Satanic genre. Did you know that it was called this because its rough, non-conforming sound caused many traditional people to become scared of its difference. Christianity was once considered a dangerous cult because of its difference. Puritans had a strict code that they followed. Anybody who didn't follow that code was considered evil and, during the Harlem Witch Trials (caused by greed and envy, not by actual witches) were even hung. 5. So DC Talk covered a secular song. So what? Do you have any idea how often songs are covered? ALL THE TIME. My friend's band (the one I mentioned earlier) covered some songs by Boston, and recently covered "Tribute" by Tenacious D. Both secular bands, but they didn't play any "bad" music. 6. Spike, when you quoted some of "Terrible Lie," you didn't capitalize "God." That could be sacreligion. Does that mean that you are sacreligios? No. It means you made a typo (and at this time, I would ask yuo to excuse all of my typing errors. My spell checker isn't working sweatdrop ) So many things are blown out of proportion when they, in reality, are nothing. 7. I read most of the article referenced with Spike's post on Bush being a bonesman. It says that the groups goal is to get many of its members into high positions. Do they realize that the "club" is located at Yale? Do you know who comes from Yale? That's right, influential people. People with enough knowledge and drive to make those positions. Is that just a coincidence, or am I retarded? (Excuse my lack of Americanism by not being PC and saying "Challenged" stare ) And here's Anastasis' most recent post: Anastasis As for the rock on sign, It was originally used by a German composer named Daniel Speer back in the early 1700's to show the distance between positions on a tenor trombone. That is the original use of it, yall can shut up. Haven you rock. That is all for now. After reading this thread, I need to correct something haven missed. The Hexagram has long been associated with other stuff BEFORE satanism, and besides, its not "the most evil symbol" and if you think that, your stupid wrong, and your source is wrong. The History and Practice of Magic even says that it represents Saturn, and its use is conjuring spirits, and if you know jack about jack, that isn't always bad, and rarely is. The Hexagram has even been said, by many wiser than me, to incorporate the WHOLE occult doctrine in its design. So all of the occult is "the most evil??" Really? Really? Get off the internet plzkthx. 2nd addition, the Skull and Bones Society was founded in the late 1800's, and their traditions havent changed. The satanic bible was written in 1969, the founder of the church wasnt even born till 1930. How are they satanic if they have been around almost 100 years before the church of satan? D: No matter how many members they have put out, and what positions they have had, there is NO WAY, even if FULLY embraced by all bonesmen, that there would be very much, if any, satanic influence as a result of the bonesmen.
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Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:54 am
Spike Zantren Dodging my point. The rock salute was never just a "rock" salute. It was always used in rock music as a salute to the "God of Rock." It's never been an okay sign. I'm not dodging your point, okay? I just answered your point. Even if it had started as a salute to Satan, we've changed it. Spike Zantren Even if they were just stars, they'd still be satanic. Remember Lucifer means "The Morning Star." But these are six-pointed hexagrams, which are occultic, and she's wearing a red robe used in witchcraft. It's from "That's What Love is For." What Haven said, and they're stars. If you think everything to do with stars is Satanic, don't look up at night. Also, she's wearing a red robe. That don't mean she's doing witchcraft. And can you find where the Bible calls Satan Lucifer? I searched BibleGateway and got "Sorry. No results found for "Lucifer" in Keyword Search." I searched in the King James version and all I got was something about the king of Babylon... Spike Zantren Touché. However, most of NIN's music is anti-christian, not just that video. Okay, fair enough. But it's the video that dc Talk said they liked, not the music. I realise I'm just splitting hairs, but how is a monkey on a cross bad? I mean, rather than condeming everyone who associates with them, why not pray for them? Or even talk to them? Spike Zantren The cross is still an important part of Christianity, and Nine Inch Nails has plenty of other blasphemous things in their music. They don't care if it was used by Rome, they still think they're attacking a symbol of Christianity, and the motive is important. Take for example the beginning lyrics of their song "Terrible Lie": Quote: Hey god, why are you doing this to me?
Am I not living up to what Im supposed to be?
Why am I seething with this animosity?
Hey god, I think you owe me a great big apology
Terrible lie
Terrible lie
Terrible lie
Terrible lie
Hey god, I really dont know what you mean.
Seems like salvation comes only in our dreams.
I feel my hatred grow all the more extreme.
Hey god, can this world really be as sad as it seems Okay, fair enough. But that's their music, not their videos. They said that Simon's work appealed to them, not the satanism in it. You can like something by someone who did something Satanic, you know. If you can find me proof that they liked a video that was Satanic, I'll have to agree. Spike Zantren Did Christ die on a cross or in an Iron Maiden? Touché. But that was just the way He died. This is what Catholics did, it's kind of off-topic. But okay: Hitler killed himself (I think...). Does that mean that any reference to suicide is a reference to Hitler? Spike Zantren I've shown you some of the band's lyrics. It's obviously an anti-Christian band. Here's a selection from their song "Heresy": Quote: "He sewed his eyes shut because he is afraid to see He tries to tell me what i put inside of me He's got the answers to ease my curiosity He dreamed up a god and called it christianity
Your god is dead and no one cares
If there is a hell I will see you there…"I was asking how the video was blasphemous, but you seem to have answered that in some of your other conterarguments. Spike Zantren John Lennon "Jesus, a garlic-eating, stinking little yellow, greasy fascist b*****d catholic Spaniard." (John Lennon, A Spaniard in the Works, p.14) "Christianity will go, it will vanish and shrink. I needn't argue about that. I'm right and will be proved right. You just wait.. . .We're more powerfull than Jesus ever was.." - John Lennon The Beatles song "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" is a subliminal message. The initials of the song are "LSD." They did drugs, there's no debate there, and they put messages in their songs often. Ah, okay. Fair enough. What about David Bowe and The Police? Also: you can like someone's music without agreeing with their life views. Look at how many non-Christians listen to Christian metal. Also, the LSD thing isn't a sumbliminal message. I've seen car number plates with LSD as the last three letters. CONSPIRACY!!!!! Ah, okay. I thought you meant they covered it properly. From re-reading the article, it sounded like they'd just played a non-Christian song. A lot of Christians play non-Christian songs. As I said before, you can like something someone does without agreeing with their worldview. Spike Zantren Yes, the Jews called the early believers "Christians" because they didn't want to be associated with them, but that has nothing to do with this subject. Sorry, I should have been a little clearer. I was tired when I typed that. I was giving an example of how people took something bad and pretty anti-Christian and made it good. Spike Zantren ...Dead babies being hanged... I don't want to sound offensive, but that's a stupid excuse and a severe understatement. Okay, it was an understatement. But all they did was sing his song at a concert. In fact, that article didn't say it was his song. It might have been, but it might also have been written after he left the band, in which case, they're singing a song written by people who knew him. It might have been written by a songwriter and only sung by him. Anyway, singing a song isn't quite the same as saying, "Wow, I love the way you decorated your house!" Spike Zantren Straw Man. Don't put words in my mouth. Fair point, but it seems to be the next step up for your argument. Spike Zantren It's not the drugs, it's the groups that were involved in the occult. Once again, you can sing a song without agreeing with the worldview of the person who wrote it, as long as that worldview doesn't appear in the song. That song is about a girl, and there's nothing occult there. Spike Zantren Why don't we make an album about abortion and put chopped up babies on it and praise abortion? stare You're ignoring the point. I never said the album was good. But albums aren't always about the album art. I looked up the song, and there's nothing about chopped up babies there. Spike Zantren Straw Man, but I'll address it. Manson isn't just associated with Anton LaVey, he's also an actual member of the Church of Satan. The fact that these people were their rolemodels plays a part in it. Their musical rolemodels. And yes, okay. So there's one less link in the conspiracy theory. But that's all it really is, a conspiracy theory. As I said before, "discussing 80's music" isn't the same as praising Satan. Spike Zantren These aren't stringed links, these are direct ones. It's not as weak as you make it out to be. And it's not as strong as you make it out to be. Spike Zantren Almost ALL of Nine Inch Nails' music is satanic. Ignoring the point. I wasn't talking about the music, I was saying that they never said they liked the video with the monkey on it. Almost all of the music =/= all of the videos. Spike Zantren You know what, so have I! Does that make it okay? Fair point. Can you please give me a valid reason it's not okay? Spike Zantren Because I've never heard of The Shack. I might make a thread about that later then/ Spike Zantren Read the rest of the verse: "for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" They're reasons not to be yoked equally together, not reasons not to talk about 80's music. Spike Zantren Preaching to non-believers is not equal to discussing music with satanist artists. There's a distinct difference. Jesus ate with them. He must've talked about other things than God. And they wanted to discuss 80's music with him, not his music. Spike Zantren However, with Amy Grant using occultic symbolism in her music videos, it's obvious to me that she's a wolf in sheep's clothing. Just because people claim to be Christians doesn't mean that they are. I fully agree. But just because people are bad doesn't mean they're not Christians. Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Not "if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, stay away from red and stars, you will be saved." But I agree with Amy Grant not being a very good Christian. She seems to be condoning premartial sex. I won't quote it because we both agree that she's not a good rolemodel. Spike Zantren It's hard to keep up with your posts since you keep editing every five seconds. neutral Yeah, sorry about that. I'm not very orgainised when I don't do it by quotes. I didn't make that mistake this time.
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Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:07 am
I'll respond to you, Haven and Anastasis later on. I just woke up.
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Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:47 am
Okay. That reminds me, I didn't put Anistasis' last post on the first post.
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Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:43 am
I want to keep this respectable, so I won't taunt or appeal to emotion, I'll merely address the points and post my response. Voldemort point two Spike Zantren Dodging my point. The rock salute was never just a "rock" salute. It was always used in rock music as a salute to the "God of Rock." It's never been an okay sign. I'm not dodging your point, okay? I just answered your point. Even if it had started as a salute to Satan, we've changed it. If you could tell me when that happened, I'd like to know. Voldemort point two Spike Zantren Even if they were just stars, they'd still be satanic. Remember Lucifer means "The Morning Star." But these are six-pointed hexagrams, which are occultic, and she's wearing a red robe used in witchcraft. It's from "That's What Love is For." What Haven said, and they're stars. If you think everything to do with stars is Satanic, don't look up at night. Once again, you're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say everything with stars is satanic, but when she when you put the puzzle pieces together, it's obvious what they're meant to be. They spend thousands of dollars on these movies, they wouldn't just leave something like that up to coincidence. Everything is choreographed perfectly. Hexagrams are merely six-pointed stars, regardless of whether it's solid or not. Voldemort point two Also, she's wearing a red robe. That don't mean she's doing witchcraft. Once again, put the pieces together, and look past presuppositions. Voldemort point two And can you find where the Bible calls Satan Lucifer? I searched BibleGateway and got "Sorry. No results found for "Lucifer" in Keyword Search." I searched in the King James version and all I got was something about the king of Babylon... Isaiah 14:12-15 12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Voldemort point two Spike Zantren Touché. However, most of NIN's music is anti-christian, not just that video. Okay, fair enough. But it's the video that dc Talk said they liked, not the music. And what do they play in the video? The music. And who knows what other anti-Christian things could appear in NIN's other videos? Voldemort point two I realise I'm just splitting hairs, but how is a monkey on a cross bad? Begging the question. It's spitting in the face of Christ's sacrifice. If that's not blasphemy, I don't know what is. Voldemort point two I mean, rather than condeming everyone who associates with them, why not pray for them? Or even talk to them? Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. Voldemort point two Spike Zantren The cross is still an important part of Christianity, and Nine Inch Nails has plenty of other blasphemous things in their music. They don't care if it was used by Rome, they still think they're attacking a symbol of Christianity, and the motive is important. Take for example the beginning lyrics of their song "Terrible Lie": Quote: Hey god, why are you doing this to me?
Am I not living up to what Im supposed to be?
Why am I seething with this animosity?
Hey god, I think you owe me a great big apology
Terrible lie
Terrible lie
Terrible lie
Terrible lie
Hey god, I really dont know what you mean.
Seems like salvation comes only in our dreams.
I feel my hatred grow all the more extreme.
Hey god, can this world really be as sad as it seems Okay, fair enough. But that's their music, not their videos. They said that Simon's work appealed to them, not the satanism in it. The music is nothing but Satanism. That's what rock music was originally created for. Voldemort point two You can like something by someone who did something Satanic, you know. That does not mean we should. Voldemort point two If you can find me proof that they liked a video that was Satanic, I'll have to agree. As stated earlier, they play their satanic music in the video. You're really only looking at half the picture. Nine Inch Nails is an openly satanic band, and includes their crap on pretty much all their music, and since the videos are music videos, they contain that satanic music, including disturbing imagery. Voldemort point two Spike Zantren Did Christ die on a cross or in an Iron Maiden? Touché. But that was just the way He died. This is what Catholics did, it's kind of off-topic. Once again, they're not just showing a crucified monkey, it's a purposeful attack on Jesus Christ, and that's evidenced by the crap in their other songs that is blatantly Anti-Christ. Voldemort point two But okay: Hitler killed himself (I think...). He took a cyanide pill or something. Voldemort point two Does that mean that any reference to suicide is a reference to Hitler? Is suicide part of Christian symbolism? Jesus didn't commit suicide, he laid down his life. Don't compare Christ to Hitler, that's disgraceful. Voldemort point two Spike Zantren I've shown you some of the band's lyrics. It's obviously an anti-Christian band. Here's a selection from their song "Heresy": Quote: "He sewed his eyes shut because he is afraid to see He tries to tell me what i put inside of me He's got the answers to ease my curiosity He dreamed up a god and called it christianity
Your god is dead and no one cares
If there is a hell I will see you there…"I was asking how the video was blasphemous, but you seem to have answered that in some of your other conterarguments. I answered this above. Voldemort point two Spike Zantren John Lennon "Jesus, a garlic-eating, stinking little yellow, greasy fascist b*****d catholic Spaniard." (John Lennon, A Spaniard in the Works, p.14) "Christianity will go, it will vanish and shrink. I needn't argue about that. I'm right and will be proved right. You just wait.. . .We're more powerfull than Jesus ever was.." - John Lennon The Beatles song "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" is a subliminal message. The initials of the song are "LSD." They did drugs, there's no debate there, and they put messages in their songs often. Ah, okay. Fair enough. What about David Bowe and The Police? When I research David Bowie and The Police a little more, I'll get back to you. Voldemort point two Also: you can like someone's music without agreeing with their life views. True, but music affects your mind drastically. I used to listen to Disturbed and Dragonforce, and I turned out to be a swearing, violent, rebellious teenage rat. I'm still working on the swearing part, and I'm going to get a haircut soon because I shouldn't have long hair. Voldemort point two Look at how many non-Christians listen to Christian metal. EXACTLY. And why do they listen to it? Because it glorifies Jesus? No. Because they like the sound, they don't care about the lyrics. The problem is when it goes the other way around, Christians can be influenced by satanic rock; I'm an example of that. Voldemort point two Also, the LSD thing isn't a sumbliminal message. It is, actually, and it's pretty obvious from the title. Other strange things have happened with Beatles music, including Charles Manson's rampage after "decoding" Helter Skelter (Fun Fact: Marilyn Manson got the name "Manson" from Charles Manson). Voldemort point two I've seen car number plates with LSD as the last three letters. CONSPIRACY!!!!! Equivocation fallacy. There's a difference between a randomly given number to a purposefully named song. Voldemort point two Ah, okay. I thought you meant they covered it properly. From re-reading the article, it sounded like they'd just played a non-Christian song. A lot of Christians play non-Christian songs. As I said before, you can like something someone does without agreeing with their worldview. Agreed. However, when a Christian band's music is influenced by a Satanic band's music, it should raise red flags in your head. Voldemort point two Spike Zantren Yes, the Jews called the early believers "Christians" because they didn't want to be associated with them, but that has nothing to do with this subject. Sorry, I should have been a little clearer. I was tired when I typed that. I was giving an example of how people took something bad and pretty anti-Christian and made it good. I don't know if it's really "good," rather, it's something that stuck, like the Big Bang theory is just a name that stuck, it's really supposed to be a "Big Expansion", not an explosion or bang. Voldemort point two Spike Zantren ...Dead babies being hanged... I don't want to sound offensive, but that's a stupid excuse and a severe understatement. Okay, it was an understatement. But all they did was sing his song at a concert. In fact, that article didn't say it was his song. It might have been, but it might also have been written after he left the band, in which case, they're singing a song written by people who knew him. It might have been written by a songwriter and only sung by him. Anyway, singing a song isn't quite the same as saying, "Wow, I love the way you decorated your house!" Good point. A reasonable objection. I'll have to look into the songs covered and take a look over the lyrics. Voldemort point two Spike Zantren Straw Man. Don't put words in my mouth. Fair point, but it seems to be the next step up for your argument. I didn't quite understand this, but moving on... Voldemort point two Spike Zantren It's not the drugs, it's the groups that were involved in the occult. Once again, you can sing a song without agreeing with the worldview of the person who wrote it, as long as that worldview doesn't appear in the song. That song is about a girl, and there's nothing occult there. Once again, I'll have to look at the lyrics myself. Voldemort point two Spike Zantren Why don't we make an album about abortion and put chopped up babies on it and praise abortion? stare You're ignoring the point. I never said the album was good. But albums aren't always about the album art. I looked up the song, and there's nothing about chopped up babies there. The fact that the picture is even used, coupled with the fact that it's a blatantly anti-Christian band should send messages that "Maybe I shouldn't be listening to this." It's not just the song, it's the band as a whole. Voldemort point two Spike Zantren Straw Man, but I'll address it. Manson isn't just associated with Anton LaVey, he's also an actual member of the Church of Satan. The fact that these people were their rolemodels plays a part in it. Their musical rolemodels. That makes it even more suspicious when the music is influencing their music. Voldemort point two And yes, okay. So there's one less link in the conspiracy theory. But that's all it really is, a conspiracy theory. I'm merely looking at the evidence. Conspiracy is defined as: a secret agreement between two or more people to perform an unlawful act.I'm not yelling a conspiracy theory, I'm looking at the evidence. Voldemort point two As I said before, "discussing 80's music" isn't the same as praising Satan. It's not just "discussing 80's music," they said "I'd LOVE to HANG with him and discuss '80s music" which brings me back to Ephesians: "And have NO FELLOWSHIP with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." - Ephesians 5:11 Voldemort point two Spike Zantren These aren't stringed links, these are direct ones. It's not as weak as you make it out to be. And it's not as strong as you make it out to be. Perhaps somewhere in the middle? Voldemort point two Spike Zantren Almost ALL of Nine Inch Nails' music is satanic. Ignoring the point. I wasn't talking about the music, I was saying that they never said they liked the video with the monkey on it. Almost all of the music =/= all of the videos. All of the videos contain their music, because they're music videos. Voldemort point two Spike Zantren You know what, so have I! Does that make it okay? Fair point. Can you please give me a valid reason it's not okay? When the Apostle Paul met the sorcerer Elymas in Acts 13. Paul didn't "hang" with him. The Apostle Paul rebuked him. 8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,
10 And said, O full of all subtlety and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?Voldemort point two Spike Zantren Because I've never heard of The Shack. I might make a thread about that later then/ I look forward to it. Voldemort point two Spike Zantren Read the rest of the verse: "for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" They're reasons not to be yoked equally together, not reasons not to talk about 80's music. Reasons not to "hang" with each other, not just talk about old music. Voldemort point two Spike Zantren Preaching to non-believers is not equal to discussing music with satanist artists. There's a distinct difference. Jesus ate with them. He must've talked about other things than God. And they wanted to discuss 80's music with him, not his music. Jesus Christ never "hung" with people who perverted and hated God. Jesus Christ rebuked them. Jesus Christ said to the Pharisess in John 8:44: Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.Voldemort point two Spike Zantren However, with Amy Grant using occultic symbolism in her music videos, it's obvious to me that she's a wolf in sheep's clothing. Just because people claim to be Christians doesn't mean that they are. I fully agree. But just because people are bad doesn't mean they're not Christians. But it does mean that we should not support her in her unrighteousness. Voldemort point two Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Not "if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, stay away from red and stars, you will be saved." Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Voldemort point two But I agree with Amy Grant not being a very good Christian. She seems to be condoning premartial sex. I won't quote it because we both agree that she's not a good rolemodel. I've seen the quote. Made me even more suspicious of her. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This took forever to write, so I'll get to Haven and Anastasis later. Might be in a few hours, might be tomorrow. I have homework I need to get done. I haven't had homework in so long, and now all of a sudden I get piled in it. lol
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Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:10 am
Oh my goodness, this is getting long. Reading through, there are some things I want to say, but I have church in less than an hour. I'll probably respond tomorow, or when I get back. But just to cover myself: I wasn't comparing Christ to Hitler, I was saying that the way Jesus died wasn't anything special until the crusades, there would have been about as much of a link between Jesus and the cross as Hitler and pills. Okay, maybe a little bit more, but the cross wasn't considered special or holy. I can't remember the source; I think it's in a book that someone's borrowing at the moment but I'm not sure.
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Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:16 am
WOOOOW.... There are so many interesting topics on this thread - and a lot of them could really stand on their own as threads themselves. Btw, I wanted to look up some info on a couple things you were discussing, and found this. Is that what you guys are talking about???? o____O Quote: Even if they were just stars, they'd still be satanic. Remember Lucifer means "The Morning Star." But these are six-pointed hexagrams, which are occultic, and she's wearing a red robe used in witchcraft. It's from "That's What Love is For." Quote: What Haven said, and they're stars. If you think everything to do with stars is Satanic, don't look up at night. Quote: Once again, you're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say everything with stars is satanic, but when she when you put the puzzle pieces together, it's obvious what they're meant to be. They spend thousands of dollars on these movies, they wouldn't just leave something like that up to coincidence. Everything is choreographed perfectly. Hexagrams are merely six-pointed stars, regardless of whether it's solid or not. Voldemort point two Also, she's wearing a red robe. That don't mean she's doing witchcraft. Quote: Once again, put the pieces together, and look past presuppositions. Reading the webpage... it does seem a little bit strange for her to be dressed in red and have stars on her hands, I must admit. If she didn't intend it to be Satanic, I wonder why she'd have them there...?? o.O If she were wearing a red robe by itself, then I'd say it's definitely far-fetched. But the robe and stars together are strange.... Voldemort point two Spike Zantren Touché. However, most of NIN's music is anti-christian, not just that video. Okay, fair enough. But it's the video that dc Talk said they liked, not the music. Quote: And what do they play in the video? The music. And who knows what other anti-Christian things could appear in NIN's other videos? Wellll, even as Christians, we're prone to like secular things out there. For instance, even though John Lennon is obviously not Christian, I still like Beatles songs. And occasionally, there'll be a song that swears that I end up listening to and liking as well. DC Talk themselves, however, have never said anything or sung anything anti-Christian. Their songs have helped me alot through troubling times and in my walk with God, and they continue to do so. There'll have to be much stronger evidence than the fact they live NIN to convince me otherwise... Voldemort point two I realise I'm just splitting hairs, but how is a monkey on a cross bad? Quote: Begging the question. It's spitting in the face of Christ's sacrifice. If that's not blasphemy, I don't know what is. Didn't catch that picture on there. But I'm definitely not in like of a picture of a monkey on a cross, either. It does seem sacreligious.... >.> Voldemort point two I mean, rather than condeming everyone who associates with them, why not pray for them? Or even talk to them? Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. What about how Jesus walked and ate dinner with various sinners/tax collectors/ and such?? He did that, and brought many people to become followers of Him. Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Voldemort point two Spike Zantren The cross is still an important part of Christianity, and Nine Inch Nails has plenty of other blasphemous things in their music. They don't care if it was used by Rome, they still think they're attacking a symbol of Christianity, and the motive is important. Take for example the beginning lyrics of their song "Terrible Lie": Quote: Hey god, why are you doing this to me?
Am I not living up to what Im supposed to be?
Why am I seething with this animosity?
Hey god, I think you owe me a great big apology
Terrible lie
Terrible lie
Terrible lie
Terrible lie
Hey god, I really dont know what you mean.
Seems like salvation comes only in our dreams.
I feel my hatred grow all the more extreme.
Hey god, can this world really be as sad as it seems Okay, fair enough. But that's their music, not their videos. They said that Simon's work appealed to them, not the satanism in it. Quote: The music is nothing but Satanism. That's what rock music was originally created for. Is it Satanism, or does NIN just hate God?? (There is a difference..) There are a lot of elements that show Satanism in rock music. (KISS being Knight's in Satan's Service, demon horns, etc) But 'rock' existed before that movement. Elvis is "The King of Rock", right?? But he also sung Gospel-ish Christian music. It wasn't until the 70's and 80's that people began using rock for other means. Once more, I don't see any problem with DC Talk liking a NIN song... Voldemort point two You can like something by someone who did something Satanic, you know. That does not mean we should. Voldemort point two If you can find me proof that they liked a video that was Satanic, I'll have to agree. Quote: As stated earlier, they play their satanic music in the video. You're really only looking at half the picture. Nine Inch Nails is an openly satanic band, and includes their crap on pretty much all their music, and since the videos are music videos, they contain that satanic music, including disturbing imagery. What is the song they like, by the way?? Voldemort point two But okay: Hitler killed himself (I think...). Quote: He took a cyanide pill or something. Yeah, he killed himself in his office when he found that the war was lost... I think his wife killed herself too.. Voldemort point two Does that mean that any reference to suicide is a reference to Hitler? Is suicide part of Christian symbolism? Jesus didn't commit suicide, he laid down his life. Don't compare Christ to Hitler, that's disgraceful. That is. And there is a difference between sacrificing your life for others, and killing yourself. Voldemort point two Spike Zantren John Lennon "Jesus, a garlic-eating, stinking little yellow, greasy fascist b*****d catholic Spaniard." (John Lennon, A Spaniard in the Works, p.14) "Christianity will go, it will vanish and shrink. I needn't argue about that. I'm right and will be proved right. You just wait.. . .We're more powerfull than Jesus ever was.." - John Lennon The Beatles song "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" is a subliminal message. The initials of the song are "LSD." They did drugs, there's no debate there, and they put messages in their songs often. Ah, okay. Fair enough. What about David Bowe and The Police? Quote: When I research David Bowie and The Police a little more, I'll get back to you. NO, not David Bowie and The Police!! D: (I'm meaning this seriously; I like The Police... And the movie The Labrynth) Voldemort point two Also: you can like someone's music without agreeing with their life views. Quote: True, but music affects your mind drastically. I used to listen to Disturbed and Dragonforce, and I turned out to be a swearing, violent, rebellious teenage rat. I'm still working on the swearing part, and I'm going to get a haircut soon because I shouldn't have long hair. Certain music, when listened to all the time, will effect how you think and act. I personally think that, as long as you don't listen to it often and keep it in moderation, it should be alright. I think. sweatdrop I don't see anything wrong with long hair, though. Jesus and many people in Biblical times had long hair. Don't get me wrong, it's fine and everything if you cut your hair, though!! I'm just saying... Ack, I've only gotten halfway through this, but my husband's home and I have to fix lunch.... sweatdrop I'll finish the rest when I get the chance to come back online. This is a really interesting thread, though!! ^^
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Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:38 pm
Watagashi WOOOOW.... There are so many interesting topics on this thread - and a lot of them could really stand on their own as threads themselves. Btw, I wanted to look up some info on a couple things you were discussing, and found this. Is that what you guys are talking about???? o____O That's one of the places I saw it. I didn't get to reading the whole thing about P.O.D., and THAT is scary. Watagashi Wellll, even as Christians, we're prone to like secular things out there. For instance, even though John Lennon is obviously not Christian, I still like Beatles songs. And occasionally, there'll be a song that swears that I end up listening to and liking as well. DC Talk themselves, however, have never said anything or sung anything anti-Christian. Their songs have helped me alot through troubling times and in my walk with God, and they continue to do so. There'll have to be much stronger evidence than the fact they live NIN to convince me otherwise... I'm not saying you can't enjoy their music, or that none of it can be helpful, but I don't trust them in the long run. Watagashi What about how Jesus walked and ate dinner with various sinners/tax collectors/ and such?? He did that, and brought many people to become followers of Him. Jesus also rebuked the Pharisees who tried to trick Him, and said that anyone who leads one of His children astray may as well be hung with a millstone around their neck. John 8:44 Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. Watagashi Is it Satanism, or does NIN just hate God?? (There is a difference..) I shouldnt've said "Satanism," but rather "Satanic." They have plenty of Satanic and sacreligious themes to their songs and judging from their music, they're obviously Anti-Christ. Watagashi There are a lot of elements that show Satanism in rock music. (KISS being Knight's in Satan's Service, demon horns, etc) But 'rock' existed before that movement. Elvis is "The King of Rock", right?? But he also sung Gospel-ish Christian music. It wasn't until the 70's and 80's that people began using rock for other means. Don't forget Elvis' gyrating hips. lol Watagashi Once more, I don't see any problem with DC Talk liking a NIN song... Like the Amy Grant thing, it's more about how it goes together with their wanting to associate with Marilyn Manson rather than just their musical tastes. Watagashi What is the song they like, by the way?? I couldn't find out exactly which one it was. I'll try to find out. However, "Jesus Freak" was directed by an Englishman named Simon Maxwell, who is the director for Nine Inch Nails, including their video with the crucified monkey. Watagashi Voldemort point two Also: you can like someone's music without agreeing with their life views. Quote: True, but music affects your mind drastically. I used to listen to Disturbed and Dragonforce, and I turned out to be a swearing, violent, rebellious teenage rat. I'm still working on the swearing part, and I'm going to get a haircut soon because I shouldn't have long hair. Certain music, when listened to all the time, will effect how you think and act. I personally think that, as long as you don't listen to it often and keep it in moderation, it should be alright. I think. sweatdrop I think even in moderation, it can have effects on you if you don't know what you're listening to. That's why I got rid of all of my Disturbed and Dragonforce music. Watagashi I don't see anything wrong with long hair, though. Jesus and many people in Biblical times had long hair. Don't get me wrong, it's fine and everything if you cut your hair, though!! I'm just saying... Actually, there's no evidence that Jesus ever actually had long hair. And I doubt that he did, because there are cases in Scripture where men with long hair are considered disgraceful. 1 Corinthians 11:14-15 14Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. The press officer for the Beatles, Derek Taylor, said, "They're [the Beatles] COMPLETELY ANTI-CHRIST. I mean, I am anti-Christ as well, but they're so anti-Christ they shock me which isn't an easy thing." (Saturday Evening Post, Aug. 8, 1964). Paul McCartney said, "We probably seem to be anti-religious. . . none of us believes in God." (Hit Parader, Jan 1970, p.15) -------------------------------------------------------------------- Just wanted to do that quickly. I'll still get to Haven and Anastasis, but later on. I have to do my homework. But for a quick freebie, I'll respond to one of Haven's responses: Haven923 6. Spike, when you quoted some of "Terrible Lie," you didn't capitalize "God." That could be sacreligion. Does that mean that you are sacreligios? No. It means you made a typo (and at this time, I would ask yuo to excuse all of my typing errors. My spell checker isn't working icon_sweatdrop.gif ) So many things are blown out of proportion when they, in reality, are nothing. I did not misquote or typo anything. That was how it was originally written, so if anyone's sacreligious, it's Nine Inch Nails, not me.
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Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:24 pm
Spike Zantren Watagashi I don't see anything wrong with long hair, though. Jesus and many people in Biblical times had long hair. Don't get me wrong, it's fine and everything if you cut your hair, though!! I'm just saying... Actually, there's no evidence that Jesus ever actually had long hair. And I doubt that he did, because there are cases in Scripture where men with long hair are considered disgraceful. 1 Corinthians 11:14-15 14Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. The popular haircut of the time of Jesus was medium to short hair, most of the time ceasarian style. I, personally, don't see anything wrong with long hair. Tattoos or piercings for that matter. I can't grow my hair out due to the fact that I am in AJROTC and soon the Army. If it weren't for that, I would have shoulderlength hair. I also have plans to get a couple tattoos and a single piercing. The bible says to not desecrate his temple (your body), and as long as you don't do that, I don't see anything wrong with it. I plan on getting a cross tattooed on my right hand on my pointer finger where a ring would go. I also am thinking about getting a Celtic or some other type of cross over my heart and wings on my back with a verse. I also want to get my ear pierced and a small silver cross earring. As you can see, all of it is either for God or for what God has given me.
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:05 am
Haven923 Spike Zantren Watagashi I don't see anything wrong with long hair, though. Jesus and many people in Biblical times had long hair. Don't get me wrong, it's fine and everything if you cut your hair, though!! I'm just saying... Actually, there's no evidence that Jesus ever actually had long hair. And I doubt that he did, because there are cases in Scripture where men with long hair are considered disgraceful. 1 Corinthians 11:14-15 14Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. The popular haircut of the time of Jesus was medium to short hair, most of the time ceasarian style. I, personally, don't see anything wrong with long hair. Tattoos or piercings for that matter. I can't grow my hair out due to the fact that I am in AJROTC and soon the Army. If it weren't for that, I would have shoulderlength hair. I also have plans to get a couple tattoos and a single piercing. The bible says to not desecrate his temple (your body), and as long as you don't do that, I don't see anything wrong with it. I plan on getting a cross tattooed on my right hand on my pointer finger where a ring would go. I also am thinking about getting a Celtic or some other type of cross over my heart and wings on my back with a verse. I also want to get my ear pierced and a small silver cross earring. As you can see, all of it is either for God or for what God has given me. (I'll reply to this one first since it's shorter ^^;;; ) But really??? Wow, it's amazing how inaccurately they depict Jesus in all those paintings... I personally don't see anything wrong with long hair either. Tattoos and piercings... not the surest about. I just haven't found a set opinion one way or the other on it. sweatdrop
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Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:23 pm
The long hair thing made me laugh. @Watagashi: The link wasn't what we were discussing. I looked at it and it's pretty similar though. The picture of the monkey is on the thread that there's a link to on the first post of this thread. @everyone: Just thought I'd shake things up a bit: How do you know you're not taking things out of context? I mean, look at Nodes of Ranvier's Wrathbearer lyrics. I quote: Nodes of Ranvier Please, just help me understand why you place trust in this dead man. Pray with all your faith that your king will bring relief. He is dead and gone. Empty is your savior's throne. Cry out for a God to hear your prayers. Don't be surprised when the silence deafens your anxious ears. That sounds even worse than NIN, doesn't it? But then if you look at the context of the song: Nodes of Ranvier As I face these evil days, I rely upon myself. I find no relief above, I do not need his help. But I'm sinking deeper into a life completely void. Now I see what I truly am, nothing but a coward. Am I damned? I'm not alone. Embraced by hope. I wanted nothing more than to destroy your bloody cross. But redemption found a son of hell in a world completely lost. So yeah.
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Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:32 pm
That sounds like an awsome song. Up until the last two lines, it all seems anti-Christian!
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Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:08 pm
Voldemort point two @everyone: Just thought I'd shake things up a bit: How do you know you're not taking things out of context? I mean, look at Nodes of Ranvier's Wrathbearer lyrics. I quote: Nodes of Ranvier Please, just help me understand why you place trust in this dead man. Pray with all your faith that your king will bring relief. He is dead and gone. Empty is your savior's throne. Cry out for a God to hear your prayers. Don't be surprised when the silence deafens your anxious ears. That sounds even worse than NIN, doesn't it? But then if you look at the context of the song: Nodes of Ranvier As I face these evil days, I rely upon myself. I find no relief above, I do not need his help. But I'm sinking deeper into a life completely void. Now I see what I truly am, nothing but a coward. Am I damned? I'm not alone. Embraced by hope. I wanted nothing more than to destroy your bloody cross. But redemption found a son of hell in a world completely lost. So yeah.
To make sure I'm not taking things out of context, I'll show you the entire song lyrics of "Closer" by Nine Inch Nails:
You let me violate you, you let me desecrate you
You let me penetrate you, you let me complicate you
Help me I broke apart my insides, help me I've got no
Soul to tell
Help me the only thing that works for me, help me get
Away from myself
I want to f**k you like an animal
I want to feel you from the inside
I want to f**k you like an animal
My whole existence is flawed
You get me closer to god
You can have my isolation, you can have the hate that
It brings
You can have my absence of faith, you can have my
Everything
Help me tear down my reason, help me its your sex i
Can smell
Help me you make me perfect, help me become somebody
Else
I want to f**k you like an animal
I want to feel you from the inside
I want to f**k you like an animal
My whole existence is flawed
You get me closer to god
Through every forest, above the trees
Within my stomach, scraped off my knees
I drink the honey inside your hive
You are the reason I stay alive
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Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:06 am
@Spike: Ah.
@Haven: NOR are amazing. They split up a few years ago though. D:
Confront is their best song.
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