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 Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:01 pm
xxEternallyBluexx brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx My point is more that you can't escape values being forced on you, not (at least for this point) that one set is better then another. Well, did you consider yourself a good person beforehand? Do you recognize you need Jesus to save you? Are you fully devoted to Him, doing everything you can to please Him?
Sometimes it is unavoidable, but there are problems (in America at least) that are heavily based in Christian beliefs, such as keeping bans on same sex marriage and debating whether intelligent design should be taught with evolution, that should be kept as objective as possible.
And since I abandoned my religion I've put more thought towards morals and ethics because I've had to decide for myself what's right and what's wrong.
I can honestly say that I'm a better person without religion because I have to take responsibility for my own thoughts and actions.
Not to say that people who do get their values from religion are any less moral, but a person doesn't need religion to do good.Unless it's the parents doing the forcing and you're under a certain age, and said values aren't hurting anyone. And I happen to believe same-sex marriage should be banned (marriage is usuallly a religious thing. I suppose getting married by someone other then a priest or a rabbi would be different, but they definetely should not be married in the church). I also think if there's any homosexuals who don't want to be homosexual, they should be given a way turn around (by choice). I also think my God can change any Christian who's homosexual heterosexual, and that anyone who's a Christian should seek that change. I also believe in Creationism, and think it's brain washing to only teach one angle and I think calling a baby is a fetus is a great way to use science terms to make it okay to kill 'fetuses'. It's like if you said someone had to be 'put down'. And I can see you're point, but that's why there aren't really second generation Christians. You can be raised in the church, but most of the kids come to a point where they really start to think about it. And I honestly think that being a Christian does make you a better person because not only are you trying to change, but you have a higher power helping you. You can still go back and repent if you do sin, but if you love Him, you'll do everything you can to avoid sinning. It's about more then being a 'good person'. Christianity says if you've done one thing wrong, you're evil. Christianity's about turning away from that, and trying to become like Jesus (perfect). It may not happen until Heaven, but that's what's being reached for. If everyone tried to be perfect (and didn't focus on anyone else's errors) and also put everyone else before themselves, I think we might have a utopia.
But I'm just so completely againts your first paragraph and have to say a few things...
First of all, maybe that's your religious belief, but what gives you the right to tell other people that they can't get married?
People who might not even share your religion?
And you do realize that when you deny them the right to get married you deny them all of the rights that apply to married couples, right?
And what makes homosexuality wrong? It's in the bible?
It's also in the bible that you can't eat pork or shellfish (or bats if any of you have been eating bats) and that slavery is okay as long as you follow a few rules.
People don't choose to be gay, and they can't choose to be straight either.
By banning same sex marriage you're forcing your religion on others and denying people, people who've done nothing wrong, rights.
And if you believe in creationism, that's fine, it's not any of my business, but it's not science.
It shouldn't be taught in science class.
If your parents want you to learn it, that's fine.
If they teach it at church or sunday school, good. That's what it's for.
Public school science class, no.
And people are not automatically good because they are Christians.
There are plenty of bad, corrupt, dishonest people who are Christian.
I try to take do the right thing and be a good person on my own.
I don't need a god to believe that. I do it on my own. And with none of the extra dogma.
If everyone tried to be a little better, period, the world would be a better place.You mean the taxes, and all that. I'm not sure where I stand on that. Maybe they should be able to get those rights, but I really don't think it should be in church. According to the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. Certain laws aren't followed by Christians because they're cultural. Moral laws (such as those pertaining to homosexuality and the Ten Commandments) are still supposed to be followed. And as for slavery, that was different in anchient Isreal. Americans were extremely cruel comparatively, and those slaves had to be reached eventually, and some of them liked their masters so much it had to be clarified how they could stay with their masters. They weren't treated as sub-human which does make it a little different. And I get your point which is why I don't tend to post or talk about my opinion on homosexuality. But the thing is, I think if my God says it's a sin, He has a good reason, and I trust Him with that. I'm not gonna go around holding rallies against gay marriage, but I'm certainly not gonna support it. I'll pray about it, but unless He clearly tells me homosexuality is okay, I'm still not gonna support it. I'm gonna look up the definition of science before I agree or disagree (can't do it on Google because it keeps giving me articles. rolleyes ). I am gonna say it as taught as a science before, they teach it in Kansas, it could be optional (that'd satisfy me and a bunch of creationists) and that I think splitting up the subjects the way they do is a little silly and would like a reform of the entire educational system, and not just the creationism thing. (Coloring Outside the Lines is a good book to read to find out what's wrong with our schools). How can you judge it? There's plenty of people who claim to be Christians but aren't, Christians who are and have been changing, but still don't compare to an athiest neighbor, and there's people like Gandhi who would be Christians were it not for them looking at the people, and not the God. Only God could keep track of it all. I truly think if everyone followed Him (not by force, not because of peer pressure, but because they knew Him) that even the people who are clearly bad would change, and we'd see an awesome world. Anyways, it's a fantasy (or a nightmare, I guess, if you aren't looking through my rose-colored glasses), but I still think He fills the hole most people have that's longing for something more.
And moral laws? Deuteronomy 13: 6-9 tells us to kill people who invite us to worship other gods. Kill them without pity.
But that is unthinkable and barbaric in modern society.
Or for examples in the NT, 1 Timothy 2: 9-15 reinforces that women should be submissive and obedient to men.
No, it's silly to take some parts of the bible literally and completely ignore others.
And not just taxes. The specific problem that has affected people I know is citizenship.
If you fall in love with a man who is not an American citizen (assuming that you are one) and you marry him, he becomes an American citizen automatically.
But say two men fall in love and want to marry and one is not a citizen, he can not marry into citizenship, or at least not to the person he's in love with, if same-sex marriage is banned.
And I boldly say that if there is a God who created everyone with a purpose then He is for homosexuality.
If He created us then He created homosexuality.
It's not a choice. Your sexuality is part of who you are. Anyone who's been "cured" was either not gay to begin with or is being forced into a lifestyle that is unnatural to him because he was taught to be ashamed of who he is.
It's just... That kind of logic is what keeps teenagers hiding who they are because they think that they should feel shame over something that 1) they can't control and 2) is part of who they are.
It's just really sad and unfortunate.
Either way, your opinion is your opinion, but same-sex marriage isn't hurting anyone.
You don't have to support it, but actively trying to ban it or keep it banned denies people rights.
They're not children. You may not agree with it, but at least let people decide for themselves.Dictionary.com sci⋅ence /ˈsaɪəns/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [sahy-uhns]
–noun
1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.
2. systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
Creationism requires blind faith.
You can't really test creationism.
And many religions have ideas on how man came to be. It's impossible to teach them all.
Maybe in a religious class. Or like I said, by the parents or church.
But in, say, a public school biology class, it doesn't belong.
I don't intend to force beliefs away from people or force them to believe something contrary to their religion.
But creationism is religion and religion should never be taught as fact in public schools.
I believe that religion simply isn't for everyone.
For some people, it's an amazing thing and works perfectly with who they are, inspiring them to be good for their creator and giving them reason to live.
For others, Christianity specifically (but many religions have some form of punishment) threatens punishment to those too juvenile and selfish to change who they are for any reason other then to avoid getting caught and scares them just enough to change their behavior.
But to people like me who seek answers and want to learn and question without boundries, His existance is inconsistant and simply doesn't make sense. And how can we worship something that we're convinced is a convenient lie?
Which brings me to my next group that is a problem specifically in Christianity: Those with other gods and other faiths who have no place in Christianity. Your religion makes it very difficult to accept these people as it tells you that they are going to Hell. And if you get too close to them, they might turn you from God. So one option is to keep them as outsiders. But if you're a good Christian then you should save them. And the only way to do that is by completely disrespecting their privacy and forcing them to see it your way.
So I don't believe there is one possible solution to make the whole world better people and respect their freedom.
And your take on Christianity saying that we can never truly be good people is one of the reasons I could never follow Christianity.
What you said about Him making people feel complete, I see this in many religious people, not just Christains.
And I think I would be much happier if I did believe in a god.
But if I could force myself to believe in a god, it would not be YHWH.
It seems that so much of Him is cruelty and anger and judgement.
And if I did turn to a religion, it would not be Christianity.
It seems that so much of Christianity is shame and guilt and groveling.
And while I could understand someone being raised in Christianity feeling comfort in it, I could never see myself turning to it by choice.
I know that's a little harsh. I'm not trying to offend you, only to present my feelings so that you might understand why I can not turn to Christianity.
And Ghandi would not have been a Christian... >.<
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Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:25 pm
brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx brainnsoup But we shouldn't have to have religious values forced upon us.
Sometimes it is unavoidable, but there are problems (in America at least) that are heavily based in Christian beliefs, such as keeping bans on same sex marriage and debating whether intelligent design should be taught with evolution, that should be kept as objective as possible.
And since I abandoned my religion I've put more thought towards morals and ethics because I've had to decide for myself what's right and what's wrong.
I can honestly say that I'm a better person without religion because I have to take responsibility for my own thoughts and actions.
Not to say that people who do get their values from religion are any less moral, but a person doesn't need religion to do good. Unless it's the parents doing the forcing and you're under a certain age, and said values aren't hurting anyone. And I happen to believe same-sex marriage should be banned (marriage is usuallly a religious thing. I suppose getting married by someone other then a priest or a rabbi would be different, but they definetely should not be married in the church). I also think if there's any homosexuals who don't want to be homosexual, they should be given a way turn around (by choice). I also think my God can change any Christian who's homosexual heterosexual, and that anyone who's a Christian should seek that change. I also believe in Creationism, and think it's brain washing to only teach one angle and I think calling a baby is a fetus is a great way to use science terms to make it okay to kill 'fetuses'. It's like if you said someone had to be 'put down'. And I can see you're point, but that's why there aren't really second generation Christians. You can be raised in the church, but most of the kids come to a point where they really start to think about it. And I honestly think that being a Christian does make you a better person because not only are you trying to change, but you have a higher power helping you. You can still go back and repent if you do sin, but if you love Him, you'll do everything you can to avoid sinning. It's about more then being a 'good person'. Christianity says if you've done one thing wrong, you're evil. Christianity's about turning away from that, and trying to become like Jesus (perfect). It may not happen until Heaven, but that's what's being reached for. If everyone tried to be perfect (and didn't focus on anyone else's errors) and also put everyone else before themselves, I think we might have a utopia.
But I'm just so completely againts your first paragraph and have to say a few things...
First of all, maybe that's your religious belief, but what gives you the right to tell other people that they can't get married?
People who might not even share your religion?
And you do realize that when you deny them the right to get married you deny them all of the rights that apply to married couples, right?
And what makes homosexuality wrong? It's in the bible?
It's also in the bible that you can't eat pork or shellfish (or bats if any of you have been eating bats) and that slavery is okay as long as you follow a few rules.
People don't choose to be gay, and they can't choose to be straight either.
By banning same sex marriage you're forcing your religion on others and denying people, people who've done nothing wrong, rights.
And if you believe in creationism, that's fine, it's not any of my business, but it's not science.
It shouldn't be taught in science class.
If your parents want you to learn it, that's fine.
If they teach it at church or sunday school, good. That's what it's for.
Public school science class, no.
And people are not automatically good because they are Christians.
There are plenty of bad, corrupt, dishonest people who are Christian.
I try to take do the right thing and be a good person on my own.
I don't need a god to believe that. I do it on my own. And with none of the extra dogma.
If everyone tried to be a little better, period, the world would be a better place.You mean the taxes, and all that. I'm not sure where I stand on that. Maybe they should be able to get those rights, but I really don't think it should be in church. According to the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. Certain laws aren't followed by Christians because they're cultural. Moral laws (such as those pertaining to homosexuality and the Ten Commandments) are still supposed to be followed. And as for slavery, that was different in anchient Isreal. Americans were extremely cruel comparatively, and those slaves had to be reached eventually, and some of them liked their masters so much it had to be clarified how they could stay with their masters. They weren't treated as sub-human which does make it a little different. And I get your point which is why I don't tend to post or talk about my opinion on homosexuality. But the thing is, I think if my God says it's a sin, He has a good reason, and I trust Him with that. I'm not gonna go around holding rallies against gay marriage, but I'm certainly not gonna support it. I'll pray about it, but unless He clearly tells me homosexuality is okay, I'm still not gonna support it. I'm gonna look up the definition of science before I agree or disagree (can't do it on Google because it keeps giving me articles. rolleyes ). I am gonna say it as taught as a science before, they teach it in Kansas, it could be optional (that'd satisfy me and a bunch of creationists) and that I think splitting up the subjects the way they do is a little silly and would like a reform of the entire educational system, and not just the creationism thing. (Coloring Outside the Lines is a good book to read to find out what's wrong with our schools). How can you judge it? There's plenty of people who claim to be Christians but aren't, Christians who are and have been changing, but still don't compare to an athiest neighbor, and there's people like Gandhi who would be Christians were it not for them looking at the people, and not the God. Only God could keep track of it all. I truly think if everyone followed Him (not by force, not because of peer pressure, but because they knew Him) that even the people who are clearly bad would change, and we'd see an awesome world. Anyways, it's a fantasy (or a nightmare, I guess, if you aren't looking through my rose-colored glasses), but I still think He fills the hole most people have that's longing for something more.
And moral laws? Deuteronomy 13: 6-9 tells us to kill people who invite us to worship other gods. Kill them without pity.
But that is unthinkable and barbaric in modern society.
Or for examples in the NT, 1 Timothy 2: 9-15 reinforces that women should be submissive and obedient to men.
No, it's silly to take some parts of the bible literally and completely ignore others.
And not just taxes. The specific problem that has affected people I know is citizenship.
If you fall in love with a man who is not an American citizen (assuming that you are one) and you marry him, he becomes an American citizen automatically.
But say two men fall in love and want to marry and one is not a citizen, he can not marry into citizenship, or at least not to the person he's in love with, if same-sex marriage is banned.
And I boldly say that if there is a God who created everyone with a purpose then He is for homosexuality.
If He created us then He created homosexuality.
It's not a choice. Your sexuality is part of who you are. Anyone who's been "cured" was either not gay to begin with or is being forced into a lifestyle that is unnatural to him because he was taught to be ashamed of who he is.
It's just... That kind of logic is what keeps teenagers hiding who they are because they think that they should feel shame over something that 1) they can't control and 2) is part of who they are.
It's just really sad and unfortunate.
Either way, your opinion is your opinion, but same-sex marriage isn't hurting anyone.
You don't have to support it, but actively trying to ban it or keep it banned denies people rights.
They're not children. You may not agree with it, but at least let people decide for themselves.Dictionary.com sci⋅ence /ˈsaɪəns/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [sahy-uhns]
–noun
1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.
2. systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
Creationism requires blind faith.
You can't really test creationism.
And many religions have ideas on how man came to be. It's impossible to teach them all.
Maybe in a religious class. Or like I said, by the parents or church.
But in, say, a public school biology class, it doesn't belong.
I don't intend to force beliefs away from people or force them to believe something contrary to their religion.
But creationism is religion and religion should never be taught as fact in public schools.
I believe that religion simply isn't for everyone.
For some people, it's an amazing thing and works perfectly with who they are, inspiring them to be good for their creator and giving them reason to live.
For others, Christianity specifically (but many religions have some form of punishment) threatens punishment to those too juvenile and selfish to change who they are for any reason other then to avoid getting caught and scares them just enough to change their behavior.
But to people like me who seek answers and want to learn and question without boundries, His existance is inconsistant and simply doesn't make sense. And how can we worship something that we're convinced is a convenient lie?
Which brings me to my next group that is a problem specifically in Christianity: Those with other gods and other faiths who have no place in Christianity. Your religion makes it very difficult to accept these people as it tells you that they are going to Hell. And if you get too close to them, they might turn you from God. So one option is to keep them as outsiders. But if you're a good Christian then you should save them. And the only way to do that is by completely disrespecting their privacy and forcing them to see it your way.
So I don't believe there is one possible solution to make the whole world better people and respect their freedom.
And your take on Christianity saying that we can never truly be good people is one of the reasons I could never follow Christianity.
What you said about Him making people feel complete, I see this in many religious people, not just Christains.
And I think I would be much happier if I did believe in a god.
But if I could force myself to believe in a god, it would not be YHWH.
It seems that so much of Him is cruelty and anger and judgement.
And if I did turn to a religion, it would not be Christianity.
It seems that so much of Christianity is shame and guilt and groveling.
And while I could understand someone being raised in Christianity feeling comfort in it, I could never see myself turning to it by choice.
I know that's a little harsh. I'm not trying to offend you, only to present my feelings so that you might understand why I can not turn to Christianity.
And Ghandi would not have been a Christian... >.< Not at all. If I went by what I wanted, I'd give in and say gay people should get married. I'd also practice witchcraft, and read Harry Potter. I'm honestly doing my best to follow the Bible as closely as I can, and I admit I fail at times. That was to keep the Jewish nation from turning to other gods which they did on a regular basis. And there's a documentary on about that tonight, so I'll give an opinion after I've seen it. And btw, homosexuality is a rather minor point in the Bible. I've never heard a sermon preached on it, and I didn't even know about it until middle school. Considering that, it's not that important to me. I love gays and hope they find what's best for them, but I'm still against their marriage. No. He didn't create disease, or mental illness, greed or pollution or sin. Homosexuality counts as one of those. He called it an abomination for a reason, and I firmly believe anyone who wants deliverance from it will recieve it. I'm gonna put it like this: I have Asperger's. I like that it makes me think differently, but it impairs me socially. I don't think Asperger's was in the original plan, and but I do think He'll use my trial for His good, and that He's the reason it hasn't completely impaired me. Is Asperger's good? No. Should it be healed? Yes. Are there useful aspects that come from this trial? Yes. It's degrading the morals of my country, and it's hurting those who practice it. I realize it's these people's choice, but I still think it's bad for them, and the country. Biology and micro evolution I agree with, but I disagree with the macro-evolution. They can't really explain how a cell becomes a tissue, the odds are a number too high for me to write across a page, and I don't see it in bacteria to form tissue, or how male and female sex organs would cause a mutation at the right time to make sex work. And they still can't explain sleep because they're trying to do it from a biological perspective. I think people sleep because when God said 'you will die' He meant spiritually and eventually physically and on a regular basis at night. And there's more science. Read Case for a Creator, and get back to me. I believe it is. >.< It says right in the Bible it won't make sense to the someone thinking only physically, but a spiritual man will get it. I think you're thinking physically (or in the flesh. That's the word that's actually used). No, they don't. I live that problem. I used to worry like crazy for unsaved people, but I'm coming to the point where I trust God, and I just try to do what He wants me to, and what I know is right. I don't see it as forcing, I see it as trying to show people something amazing, something that could change their life. If you had a panacea, would you keep it from the public? And if you knew someone had cancer and tried to give them that panacea, and they told you to stop forcing your cure on them, would you? And this is way bigger then that. Christians are trying to bring others to a being who not only gives you new and better life after you die, but who also loves you no matter what you do. He supported my mom for 30 years (she's had a hard life) and despite the fact life's tough, He keeps me going, and He means as much or more to me as my little sister and mom do. He's real. Plus there can only be one truth. If someone told you they didn't like that the sun was yellow and average and decided to believe it was a red giant, you'd call them crazy, wouldn't you? Well that's also what it's like to me. Again, I do. Even the best societies fail. I really think if everyone met Him, the world would become a utopia. Society again. Even in the 'good' countries' you still see a lot of strife, and poverty and greed. It's like that with people. You may be an Ethiopia's or an America, but both could use something that would take care of all the poor, give all the people their passions, make everyone feel loved, etc. Ethiopia's actually more likely to get it though, because they'd be desperate for it, and America would miss out and decline as all all civilizations eventually do. It's a weird metaphor, and I'll try a different one if that doesn't work, but to my twisted mind it makes sense. Christianity is release from those. You can only serve one of two masters, and that means either Satan or God. And out of the blue question:if you could find out beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was a God, He is good, He loves you, and He died for you and it's the Christian God, would you want to know? Because if you say yes, it makes it his responsibility (if He's real) to tell you. And from the quote I kinda think so...I'll read a few biographies on him eventually and figure it out then.
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Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:40 pm
There would be no way Ghandi would be a Christian. He may have lived peacefully but you're forgetting that the British were Christians and were on a massive imperialism streak throughout the past 100 years or so. India was under British control and many Indians did suffer because of that. Ghandi didn't want anything to partake in that, especially when he was mistreated even though he was a lawyer himself.
Which is the main reason why Ghandi stated he didn't like Christians. He did admire Christians, however those he encountered, many of them British, were quite nasty, rude and hurtful to him and his people. There is no way he would want to take any part of it. Think for a minute that your people were being imprisioned so to speak by another nation that had a different religion and were treating people poorly regardless of what that religion dictated, would you want to be associated with that religion? Chances are you wouldn't.
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Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:00 pm
xLady Tsukiyox There would be no way Ghandi would be a Christian. He may have lived peacefully but you're forgetting that the British were Christians and were on a massive imperialism streak throughout the past 100 years or so. India was under British control and many Indians did suffer because of that. Ghandi didn't want anything to partake in that, especially when he was mistreated even though he was a lawyer himself. Which is the main reason why Ghandi stated he didn't like Christians. He did admire Christians, however those he encountered, many of them British, were quite nasty, rude and hurtful to him and his people. There is no way he would want to take any part of it. Think for a minute that your people were being imprisioned so to speak by another nation that had a different religion and were treating people poorly regardless of what that religion dictated, would you want to be associated with that religion? Chances are you wouldn't. Except being a Christian isn't based around other Christians, but around Jesus Christ. I know he wasn't a Chritian, but it wouldn't have been impossible for him to become one. I think if the right person would've spoken to him, he could've become one. It's hardly important now anyway, considering he's dead, and I'm probrably still gonna read a biography on him. He's one of my favorite historical figures. A reporter once asked him what he thought of Western Civilizartion and he said he thought it would be a good idea. xd That cracked me up.
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Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:41 pm
Good people =/= Christians Ghandi, obviously, was a great person. Was he Christian? No. Did he even want to be Christian? I highly doubt it. Quote: Chris⋅tian /ˈkrɪstʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kris-chuhn] –noun 7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; To be Christian is to believe Jesus is the son of god and your savior. That's how a majority of the population defines Christianity. If you are a complete a** and believe Jesus is the son of god, you're christian. You may have a stricter view of christianity is but most don't.
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Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:07 pm
I'm not christian, but I still think homosexuality is wrong. I can believe that anyone would do anything BUT that. I don't think they should be, like, be thrown out like outcasts, but I personally don't want any dudes grabbing my a**, one, because they don't need to do that to show me I'm hot, I already know, and two, because I don't want a guy looking at me like that. (and you know what? Multiple people have mistaken me as gay... and gay guys do stare at me in *that* way. I think it is creepy. I'M FEMININE. NOT GAY. DO NOT CONFUSE THE TWO. thank you. Please don't call me an a**/bigot/ motherf****r.) By the way, I'm pagan.
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Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:15 pm
Shiori Miko Good people =/= Christians Ghandi, obviously, was a great person. Was he Christian? No. Did he even want to be Christian? I highly doubt it. Quote: Chris⋅tian /ˈkrɪstʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kris-chuhn] –noun 7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; To be Christian is to believe Jesus is the son of god and your savior. That's how a majority of the population defines Christianity. If you are a complete a** and believe Jesus is the son of god, you're christian. You may have a stricter view of christianity is but most don't. Not what I meant. I apologize if it came across as me believing Ghandi was a 'good person'. I admire the man, but I still don't believe he was good. And that admiration doesn't=me believing he coulda been a Christian. Anyone could be Christian, there are just some that are more likely. Gandhi's attitude towards Christ is what would've made it more likely for him to be a Christian had the right witness met him. If the Heaven and Hell from the Great Divorce were real, I think Gandhi would end up in Heaven. v.v
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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:03 am
Broken_Penguin_Man I'm not christian, but I still think homosexuality is wrong. I can believe that anyone would do anything BUT that. I don't think they should be, like, be thrown out like outcasts, but I personally don't want any dudes grabbing my a**, one, because they don't need to do that to show me I'm hot, I already know, and two, because I don't want a guy looking at me like that. (and you know what? Multiple people have mistaken me as gay... and gay guys do stare at me in *that* way. I think it is creepy. I'M FEMININE. NOT GAY. DO NOT CONFUSE THE TWO. thank you. Please don't call me an a**/bigot/ motherf****r.) By the way, I'm pagan. I certainly don't confuse the two, for one. On your first point, no one should be doing that, period. On your second point... I think you should then understand how women feel when they get unwanted attention from men. From what you've said here, I don't think the problem is with homosexuality, per se, just the sort of personality that sometimes accompanies it. I've met many people who are very respectful and would not do the things you've mentioned.
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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:04 am
xxEternallyBluexx Shiori Miko Good people =/= Christians Ghandi, obviously, was a great person. Was he Christian? No. Did he even want to be Christian? I highly doubt it. Quote: Chris⋅tian /ˈkrɪstʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kris-chuhn] –noun 7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; To be Christian is to believe Jesus is the son of god and your savior. That's how a majority of the population defines Christianity. If you are a complete a** and believe Jesus is the son of god, you're christian. You may have a stricter view of christianity is but most don't. Not what I meant. I apologize if it came across as me believing Ghandi was a 'good person'. I admire the man, but I still don't believe he was good. And that admiration doesn't=me believing he coulda been a Christian. Anyone could be Christian, there are just some that are more likely. Gandhi's attitude towards Christ is what would've made it more likely for him to be a Christian had the right witness met him. If the Heaven and Hell from the Great Divorce were real, I think Gandhi would end up in Heaven. v.v And what exactly are his teachings? I could like the teachings of Christ too but not become a Christian. Just viewing him as a teacher, rather than the son of god. Like Buddha. He was not a god, just a teacher.
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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:02 pm
Shiori Miko xxEternallyBluexx Shiori Miko Good people =/= Christians Ghandi, obviously, was a great person. Was he Christian? No. Did he even want to be Christian? I highly doubt it. Quote: Chris⋅tian /ˈkrɪstʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kris-chuhn] –noun 7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; To be Christian is to believe Jesus is the son of god and your savior. That's how a majority of the population defines Christianity. If you are a complete a** and believe Jesus is the son of god, you're christian. You may have a stricter view of christianity is but most don't. Not what I meant. I apologize if it came across as me believing Ghandi was a 'good person'. I admire the man, but I still don't believe he was good. And that admiration doesn't=me believing he coulda been a Christian. Anyone could be Christian, there are just some that are more likely. Gandhi's attitude towards Christ is what would've made it more likely for him to be a Christian had the right witness met him. If the Heaven and Hell from the Great Divorce were real, I think Gandhi would end up in Heaven. v.v And what exactly are his teachings? I could like the teachings of Christ too but not become a Christian. Just viewing him as a teacher, rather than the son of god. Like Buddha. He was not a god, just a teacher. There's a saying by CS Lewis I really like that basically goes you can call Jesus a lunatic, or a liar, but it's really disrepectful to just call Him a 'great moral teacher'. With the claims He made (being the Son of God), it'd be just plain foolish to do so. I like Ghandhi's quote because he's basically saying it's the church, not Christ, who's inadequate, and actually, he's right.
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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:24 pm
xxEternallyBluexx brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx Unless it's the parents doing the forcing and you're under a certain age, and said values aren't hurting anyone. And I happen to believe same-sex marriage should be banned (marriage is usuallly a religious thing. I suppose getting married by someone other then a priest or a rabbi would be different, but they definetely should not be married in the church). I also think if there's any homosexuals who don't want to be homosexual, they should be given a way turn around (by choice). I also think my God can change any Christian who's homosexual heterosexual, and that anyone who's a Christian should seek that change. I also believe in Creationism, and think it's brain washing to only teach one angle and I think calling a baby is a fetus is a great way to use science terms to make it okay to kill 'fetuses'. It's like if you said someone had to be 'put down'. And I can see you're point, but that's why there aren't really second generation Christians. You can be raised in the church, but most of the kids come to a point where they really start to think about it. And I honestly think that being a Christian does make you a better person because not only are you trying to change, but you have a higher power helping you. You can still go back and repent if you do sin, but if you love Him, you'll do everything you can to avoid sinning. It's about more then being a 'good person'. Christianity says if you've done one thing wrong, you're evil. Christianity's about turning away from that, and trying to become like Jesus (perfect). It may not happen until Heaven, but that's what's being reached for. If everyone tried to be perfect (and didn't focus on anyone else's errors) and also put everyone else before themselves, I think we might have a utopia.
But I'm just so completely againts your first paragraph and have to say a few things...
First of all, maybe that's your religious belief, but what gives you the right to tell other people that they can't get married?
People who might not even share your religion?
And you do realize that when you deny them the right to get married you deny them all of the rights that apply to married couples, right?
And what makes homosexuality wrong? It's in the bible?
It's also in the bible that you can't eat pork or shellfish (or bats if any of you have been eating bats) and that slavery is okay as long as you follow a few rules.
People don't choose to be gay, and they can't choose to be straight either.
By banning same sex marriage you're forcing your religion on others and denying people, people who've done nothing wrong, rights.
And if you believe in creationism, that's fine, it's not any of my business, but it's not science.
It shouldn't be taught in science class.
If your parents want you to learn it, that's fine.
If they teach it at church or sunday school, good. That's what it's for.
Public school science class, no.
And people are not automatically good because they are Christians.
There are plenty of bad, corrupt, dishonest people who are Christian.
I try to take do the right thing and be a good person on my own.
I don't need a god to believe that. I do it on my own. And with none of the extra dogma.
If everyone tried to be a little better, period, the world would be a better place.You mean the taxes, and all that. I'm not sure where I stand on that. Maybe they should be able to get those rights, but I really don't think it should be in church. According to the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. Certain laws aren't followed by Christians because they're cultural. Moral laws (such as those pertaining to homosexuality and the Ten Commandments) are still supposed to be followed. And as for slavery, that was different in anchient Isreal. Americans were extremely cruel comparatively, and those slaves had to be reached eventually, and some of them liked their masters so much it had to be clarified how they could stay with their masters. They weren't treated as sub-human which does make it a little different. And I get your point which is why I don't tend to post or talk about my opinion on homosexuality. But the thing is, I think if my God says it's a sin, He has a good reason, and I trust Him with that. I'm not gonna go around holding rallies against gay marriage, but I'm certainly not gonna support it. I'll pray about it, but unless He clearly tells me homosexuality is okay, I'm still not gonna support it. I'm gonna look up the definition of science before I agree or disagree (can't do it on Google because it keeps giving me articles. rolleyes ). I am gonna say it as taught as a science before, they teach it in Kansas, it could be optional (that'd satisfy me and a bunch of creationists) and that I think splitting up the subjects the way they do is a little silly and would like a reform of the entire educational system, and not just the creationism thing. (Coloring Outside the Lines is a good book to read to find out what's wrong with our schools). How can you judge it? There's plenty of people who claim to be Christians but aren't, Christians who are and have been changing, but still don't compare to an athiest neighbor, and there's people like Gandhi who would be Christians were it not for them looking at the people, and not the God. Only God could keep track of it all. I truly think if everyone followed Him (not by force, not because of peer pressure, but because they knew Him) that even the people who are clearly bad would change, and we'd see an awesome world. Anyways, it's a fantasy (or a nightmare, I guess, if you aren't looking through my rose-colored glasses), but I still think He fills the hole most people have that's longing for something more.
And moral laws? Deuteronomy 13: 6-9 tells us to kill people who invite us to worship other gods. Kill them without pity.
But that is unthinkable and barbaric in modern society.
Or for examples in the NT, 1 Timothy 2: 9-15 reinforces that women should be submissive and obedient to men.
No, it's silly to take some parts of the bible literally and completely ignore others.
And not just taxes. The specific problem that has affected people I know is citizenship.
If you fall in love with a man who is not an American citizen (assuming that you are one) and you marry him, he becomes an American citizen automatically.
But say two men fall in love and want to marry and one is not a citizen, he can not marry into citizenship, or at least not to the person he's in love with, if same-sex marriage is banned.
And I boldly say that if there is a God who created everyone with a purpose then He is for homosexuality.
If He created us then He created homosexuality.
It's not a choice. Your sexuality is part of who you are. Anyone who's been "cured" was either not gay to begin with or is being forced into a lifestyle that is unnatural to him because he was taught to be ashamed of who he is.
It's just... That kind of logic is what keeps teenagers hiding who they are because they think that they should feel shame over something that 1) they can't control and 2) is part of who they are.
It's just really sad and unfortunate.
Either way, your opinion is your opinion, but same-sex marriage isn't hurting anyone.
You don't have to support it, but actively trying to ban it or keep it banned denies people rights.
They're not children. You may not agree with it, but at least let people decide for themselves.Dictionary.com sci⋅ence /ˈsaɪəns/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [sahy-uhns]
–noun
1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.
2. systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
Creationism requires blind faith.
You can't really test creationism.
And many religions have ideas on how man came to be. It's impossible to teach them all.
Maybe in a religious class. Or like I said, by the parents or church.
But in, say, a public school biology class, it doesn't belong.
I don't intend to force beliefs away from people or force them to believe something contrary to their religion.
But creationism is religion and religion should never be taught as fact in public schools.
I believe that religion simply isn't for everyone.
For some people, it's an amazing thing and works perfectly with who they are, inspiring them to be good for their creator and giving them reason to live.
For others, Christianity specifically (but many religions have some form of punishment) threatens punishment to those too juvenile and selfish to change who they are for any reason other then to avoid getting caught and scares them just enough to change their behavior.
But to people like me who seek answers and want to learn and question without boundries, His existance is inconsistant and simply doesn't make sense. And how can we worship something that we're convinced is a convenient lie?
Which brings me to my next group that is a problem specifically in Christianity: Those with other gods and other faiths who have no place in Christianity. Your religion makes it very difficult to accept these people as it tells you that they are going to Hell. And if you get too close to them, they might turn you from God. So one option is to keep them as outsiders. But if you're a good Christian then you should save them. And the only way to do that is by completely disrespecting their privacy and forcing them to see it your way.
So I don't believe there is one possible solution to make the whole world better people and respect their freedom.
And your take on Christianity saying that we can never truly be good people is one of the reasons I could never follow Christianity.
What you said about Him making people feel complete, I see this in many religious people, not just Christains.
And I think I would be much happier if I did believe in a god.
But if I could force myself to believe in a god, it would not be YHWH.
It seems that so much of Him is cruelty and anger and judgement.
And if I did turn to a religion, it would not be Christianity.
It seems that so much of Christianity is shame and guilt and groveling.
And while I could understand someone being raised in Christianity feeling comfort in it, I could never see myself turning to it by choice.
I know that's a little harsh. I'm not trying to offend you, only to present my feelings so that you might understand why I can not turn to Christianity.
And Ghandi would not have been a Christian... >.< Not at all. If I went by what I wanted, I'd give in and say gay people should get married. I'd also practice witchcraft, and read Harry Potter. I'm honestly doing my best to follow the Bible as closely as I can, and I admit I fail at times. That was to keep the Jewish nation from turning to other gods which they did on a regular basis. And there's a documentary on about that tonight, so I'll give an opinion after I've seen it. And btw, homosexuality is a rather minor point in the Bible. I've never heard a sermon preached on it, and I didn't even know about it until middle school. Considering that, it's not that important to me. I love gays and hope they find what's best for them, but I'm still against their marriage. No. He didn't create disease, or mental illness, greed or pollution or sin. Homosexuality counts as one of those. He called it an abomination for a reason, and I firmly believe anyone who wants deliverance from it will recieve it. I'm gonna put it like this: I have Asperger's. I like that it makes me think differently, but it impairs me socially. I don't think Asperger's was in the original plan, and but I do think He'll use my trial for His good, and that He's the reason it hasn't completely impaired me. Is Asperger's good? No. Should it be healed? Yes. Are there useful aspects that come from this trial? Yes. It's degrading the morals of my country, and it's hurting those who practice it. I realize it's these people's choice, but I still think it's bad for them, and the country. Biology and micro evolution I agree with, but I disagree with the macro-evolution. They can't really explain how a cell becomes a tissue, the odds are a number too high for me to write across a page, and I don't see it in bacteria to form tissue, or how male and female sex organs would cause a mutation at the right time to make sex work. And they still can't explain sleep because they're trying to do it from a biological perspective. I think people sleep because when God said 'you will die' He meant spiritually and eventually physically and on a regular basis at night. And there's more science. Read Case for a Creator, and get back to me. I believe it is. >.< It says right in the Bible it won't make sense to the someone thinking only physically, but a spiritual man will get it. I think you're thinking physically (or in the flesh. That's the word that's actually used). No, they don't. I live that problem. I used to worry like crazy for unsaved people, but I'm coming to the point where I trust God, and I just try to do what He wants me to, and what I know is right. I don't see it as forcing, I see it as trying to show people something amazing, something that could change their life. If you had a panacea, would you keep it from the public? And if you knew someone had cancer and tried to give them that panacea, and they told you to stop forcing your cure on them, would you? And this is way bigger then that. Christians are trying to bring others to a being who not only gives you new and better life after you die, but who also loves you no matter what you do. He supported my mom for 30 years (she's had a hard life) and despite the fact life's tough, He keeps me going, and He means as much or more to me as my little sister and mom do. He's real. Plus there can only be one truth. If someone told you they didn't like that the sun was yellow and average and decided to believe it was a red giant, you'd call them crazy, wouldn't you? Well that's also what it's like to me. Again, I do. Even the best societies fail. I really think if everyone met Him, the world would become a utopia. Society again. Even in the 'good' countries' you still see a lot of strife, and poverty and greed. It's like that with people. You may be an Ethiopia's or an America, but both could use something that would take care of all the poor, give all the people their passions, make everyone feel loved, etc. Ethiopia's actually more likely to get it though, because they'd be desperate for it, and America would miss out and decline as all all civilizations eventually do. It's a weird metaphor, and I'll try a different one if that doesn't work, but to my twisted mind it makes sense. Christianity is release from those. You can only serve one of two masters, and that means either Satan or God. And out of the blue question:if you could find out beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was a God, He is good, He loves you, and He died for you and it's the Christian God, would you want to know? Because if you say yes, it makes it his responsibility (if He's real) to tell you. And from the quote I kinda think so...I'll read a few biographies on him eventually and figure it out then.
But it's impossible to follow everything in the bible literally, and no one can ever claim that they do.
Like that part in Deuteronomy, say what you will about it, but it's still there. In the bible. Just because something's in the bible doesn't mean you should blindly follow it, even in Christianity.
And if homosexuality is not important, then why do people sharing your views go to such lengths to make sure that people are denied rights?
Do you even have a reason other than "it's in the bible" for why it's wrong?
Any solid, objective reasoning at all?
And if not, wrap your mind around this:
I am an atheist. By Christianity's definition I commit many sins daily which I feel no remourse over because they are not bad to me.
But regardless, I am legally an adult and can marry another atheist sharing my beliefs.
Not only that, but I can do it within a day of meeting him if I wanted.
I could walk into a church and say "I BELIEVE THAT YOUR GOD IS A LIE!", blaspheme the name of the Lord and still get married.
And no one's fighting to take away my right to marry, as long as it's to a man.
Christianity does not have monopoly over marriage.
Well first of all, He did create all of those (greed, sin, mental illness, etc.) directly or indirectly.
Sin comes from Adam and Eve eating from the tree and being cast out of Eden?
But he put the tree there!!!
He who is all-knowing and all-powerful put a tree with two simple, stupid beings who don't know right or wrong and said "Oh, don't eat from that."
And not only that, he aslo put a talking serpent there who was much more clever than either of the beings who could easily convince them to eat from the tree because God made them stupid.
I'm saying that that was His bad...
And I'm assuming that you're saying that homosexuality is a sin, not implying that it is a disease.
Well by your own definition, sin causes us to feel disconnected from God?
But I know gay men who are very happy.
The only reason they would feel guilty for being gay is from being constantly told by Christianity that they should feel shame!
And if you were implying that homosexuality is a disease, I'll just say without getting angry: That's a pretty bold assertion. Proof?
And the morals of your country? You're American, yes?
Separation of Church and State.
I'm sure it's been mentioned in this thread before. People came to America fleeing religious persecution.
It's unconstitutional to write laws forcing people to conform to a religion.
I'm thinking logically.
Logically, religion usually only makes sense to theists.
Again, I'm not saying that children should be forced to believe evolution, but Creationism has no part in public schools.
It's religion.
And again, I am not a Christian.
Saying that something's in the bible doesn't mean anything to me.
Your analogies don't accurately explain pushing Christianity on somebody.
Like from my perspective your cure analogy is like if I knew someone with cancer and so I tried to force them to put on my lucky hat.
I could be so very sure that it works.
And it might work.
But there's no logical evidence and to a person who doesn't think in terms of luck it's completely ridiculous.
And your sun example, God is not sitting in the sky for all to see, demanding that we worship Him.
All He did was leave us a very very very old book that has been translated, added to, and edited uncountless times with no objective proof of His will or even His existence.
If Christianity does turn out to have the answer, then it offers some amazing rewards to it's believers, and it makes sense for people to want to believe it, but it doesn't do anything to prove that it has the answer.
And saying if everyone met him, the world would be a better place.
Well that's a pretty big "if".
And if I could find out without a shadow of a doubt that there was a God, and all of His/Her/Its/Their qualities and what He/She/It/They wants from us, I would take that opportunity in a second.
I spent a huge chunk of my high school years trying to figure out just that.
But I have, through years of my own reasoning, decided that there is probably no god, certainly not a God who wants to be known and worshiped, and definitely absolutely, without, any doubt in my mind the God can not exist exactly as Christianity explains him.
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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:45 pm
Broken_Penguin_Man I'm not christian, but I still think homosexuality is wrong. I can believe that anyone would do anything BUT that. I don't think they should be, like, be thrown out like outcasts, but I personally don't want any dudes grabbing my a**, one, because they don't need to do that to show me I'm hot, I already know, and two, because I don't want a guy looking at me like that. (and you know what? Multiple people have mistaken me as gay... and gay guys do stare at me in *that* way. I think it is creepy. I'M FEMININE. NOT GAY. DO NOT CONFUSE THE TWO. thank you. Please don't call me an a**/bigot/ motherf****r.) By the way, I'm pagan.
Sfiuhrdrgsialhd to you, idiot.
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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:08 pm
xxEternallyBluexx Shiori Miko xxEternallyBluexx Shiori Miko Good people =/= Christians Ghandi, obviously, was a great person. Was he Christian? No. Did he even want to be Christian? I highly doubt it. Quote: Chris⋅tian /ˈkrɪstʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kris-chuhn] –noun 7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; To be Christian is to believe Jesus is the son of god and your savior. That's how a majority of the population defines Christianity. If you are a complete a** and believe Jesus is the son of god, you're christian. You may have a stricter view of christianity is but most don't. Not what I meant. I apologize if it came across as me believing Ghandi was a 'good person'. I admire the man, but I still don't believe he was good. And that admiration doesn't=me believing he coulda been a Christian. Anyone could be Christian, there are just some that are more likely. Gandhi's attitude towards Christ is what would've made it more likely for him to be a Christian had the right witness met him. If the Heaven and Hell from the Great Divorce were real, I think Gandhi would end up in Heaven. v.v And what exactly are his teachings? I could like the teachings of Christ too but not become a Christian. Just viewing him as a teacher, rather than the son of god. Like Buddha. He was not a god, just a teacher. There's a saying by CS Lewis I really like that basically goes you can call Jesus a lunatic, or a liar, but it's really disrepectful to just call Him a 'great moral teacher'. With the claims He made (being the Son of God), it'd be just plain foolish to do so. I like Ghandhi's quote because he's basically saying it's the church, not Christ, who's inadequate, and actually, he's right. ...You'd figure Jesus would be more humble. confused
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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:41 pm
Shiori Miko xxEternallyBluexx Shiori Miko xxEternallyBluexx Shiori Miko Good people =/= Christians Ghandi, obviously, was a great person. Was he Christian? No. Did he even want to be Christian? I highly doubt it. Quote: Chris⋅tian /ˈkrɪstʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kris-chuhn] –noun 7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; To be Christian is to believe Jesus is the son of god and your savior. That's how a majority of the population defines Christianity. If you are a complete a** and believe Jesus is the son of god, you're christian. You may have a stricter view of christianity is but most don't. Not what I meant. I apologize if it came across as me believing Ghandi was a 'good person'. I admire the man, but I still don't believe he was good. And that admiration doesn't=me believing he coulda been a Christian. Anyone could be Christian, there are just some that are more likely. Gandhi's attitude towards Christ is what would've made it more likely for him to be a Christian had the right witness met him. If the Heaven and Hell from the Great Divorce were real, I think Gandhi would end up in Heaven. v.v And what exactly are his teachings? I could like the teachings of Christ too but not become a Christian. Just viewing him as a teacher, rather than the son of god. Like Buddha. He was not a god, just a teacher. There's a saying by CS Lewis I really like that basically goes you can call Jesus a lunatic, or a liar, but it's really disrepectful to just call Him a 'great moral teacher'. With the claims He made (being the Son of God), it'd be just plain foolish to do so. I like Ghandhi's quote because he's basically saying it's the church, not Christ, who's inadequate, and actually, he's right. ...You'd figure Jesus would be more humble. confused Not if what He was saying was true...
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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:50 pm
I can't believe that I'm about to do this but here goes, yes I do believe that religious beliefs should be a factor in law making, perhaps not the only factor, but a factor all the same. I say this because religion is very important for shaping and defining one's morals, and since laws should be based upon the morals of the people, religious beliefs must be factored in, otherwise the laws will not reflect the will of the people as a whole.
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