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 Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:51 pm
Artto xxEternallyBluexx No. The Trinity means He fulfills Himself. He doesn't need us, but He does love us and want us to choose Him. Can't every person fulfil them self? Semi-related quote from an unknown author: "I will not die, it is the world that will end". I don't think so... I think that everyone longs for eternity and God, even if they don't realize it. We might be able to replace him temporaily with things on this earth, but that doesn't mean we don't need Him.
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Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:16 am
Your mindset is so incredibly different than mine, I can hardly understand what you're saying and doubt you could understand my point of view on this.
I don't believe that there is a god, I don't believe in an afterlife. In my view, once our life is over, it's just over for us.
In being 'alone', unguided, in my view, we're granted a very big responsibility. It means absolute freedom. If you have control over your fate, your life, it makes you absolutely responsible for your future and the future of those around you. Having no set meaning, goal, purpose, fate - it is upon you to set your own.
You live for what you choose to live for. It's up to you and the clock is ticking, and at some unknown moment in time you will no longer be. This could sounds depressing, but then again, this calls you to run your life the best way possible.
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Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:51 am
xxEternallyBluexx I don't think so... I think that everyone longs for eternity and God, even if they don't realize it. That's a sneaky. How can I possibly argue with such a statement? If I tell you, that I don't feel any void in my life, and that I don't feel the need for a god, you just say that I do, but I don't realize it. How can anyone possibly argue with that?
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Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:02 pm
Artto xxEternallyBluexx I don't think so... I think that everyone longs for eternity and God, even if they don't realize it. That's a sneaky. How can I possibly argue with such a statement? If I tell you, that I don't feel any void in my life, and that I don't feel the need for a god, you just say that I do, but I don't realize it. How can anyone possibly argue with that? Sorry, but that is what I think, even if it's hard to argue against. I didn't do that purposely though.
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Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:27 pm
Im A Little Pea Your mindset is so incredibly different than mine, I can hardly understand what you're saying and doubt you could understand my point of view on this. I don't believe that there is a god, I don't believe in an afterlife. In my view, once our life is over, it's just over for us. In being 'alone', unguided, in my view, we're granted a very big responsibility. It means absolute freedom. If you have control over your fate, your life, it makes you absolutely responsible for your future and the future of those around you. Having no set meaning, goal, purpose, fate - it is upon you to set your own. You live for what you choose to live for. It's up to you and the clock is ticking, and at some unknown moment in time you will no longer be. This could sounds depressing, but then again, this calls you to run your life the best way possible. I've been there. It's the same way with me when someone doesn't see a correlation between miracles and faith, or thinks of God as a myth. But that doesn't come as much from being a Christian as it does from going through despair, and seeing there is no way for mankind to leave a mark if there's no higher power then us. The universe will all eventually go out by crashing together, or drifting apart into little freezing rocks. When you realize everything is doomed to fall apart, it makes it difficult to have hope for a world that can't survive eternity. There's gotta be something bigger to give it all purpose, or what's the point of going on? Mathematically it's like this: us x higher power=? 1x0=0 -1x0=0 1x#>1=#>1 and it matters then. -1x#>1=#<0 and again, it matters then. It even matters if the higher power is negative, because then something is still left. The only thing that makes it so nothing matters, is if there is no God. And that's just in terms of math. :3
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Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:57 pm
Artto xxEternallyBluexx I don't think so... I think that everyone longs for eternity and God, even if they don't realize it. That's a sneaky. How can I possibly argue with such a statement? If I tell you, that I don't feel any void in my life, and that I don't feel the need for a god, you just say that I do, but I don't realize it. How can anyone possibly argue with that? Who cares if we don't realize it if we're enjoying life anyway?
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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:08 am
This is all well and nice, yet faith isn't math. I see what you're saying there. But it's hardly a proof.
I don't live the life of the world and the people in it. I live my own life and mine alone. Each and every one of us is such a small, insignificant part of this gigantic system called the universe. There's 'got' to be nothing the way I see it. Nothing can be pre-assumed. You see, you can not prove any meaning to be the ultimate, correct, one truth. You, since you were raised Christian, see it the Christian way. Some other dude sees it the Pagan way, and he believes his gods and goddesses are directing the ways of this world and maybe even others. They have just as much proof you do, that their god exists, and that he/she/it/they is/are out there watching over them and giving them direction.
I don't have that, and I don't need that.
I have myself. We're all conscious beings. We can choose either to find a system that fits us, or to find our own. I don't need a 'higher' meaning. I have my meaning, and I know mine isn't right for everyone. But it's surely good for me, and I know just what it is. Sure, when I die none of it would ever matter to anyone; but it wouldn't matter to me either. I don't feel the need to leave a mark, because it wouldn't matter to me one single bit when I'm gone.
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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:17 pm
Im A Little Pea This is all well and nice, yet faith isn't math. I see what you're saying there. But it's hardly a proof. I don't live the life of the world and the people in it. I live my own life and mine alone. Each and every one of us is such a small, insignificant part of this gigantic system called the universe. There's 'got' to be nothing the way I see it. Nothing can be pre-assumed. You see, you can not prove any meaning to be the ultimate, correct, one truth. You, since you were raised Christian, see it the Christian way. Some other dude sees it the Pagan way, and he believes his gods and goddesses are directing the ways of this world and maybe even others. They have just as much proof you do, that their god exists, and that he/she/it/they is/are out there watching over them and giving them direction. I don't have that, and I don't need that. I have myself. We're all conscious beings. We can choose either to find a system that fits us, or to find our own. I don't need a 'higher' meaning. I have my meaning, and I know mine isn't right for everyone. But it's surely good for me, and I know just what it is. Sure, when I die none of it would ever matter to anyone; but it wouldn't matter to me either. I don't feel the need to leave a mark, because it wouldn't matter to me one single bit when I'm gone. No I see it that way because I've had a God-given revelation, and because I know others who've been given a God-given revelation that I trust far more then any 'you can't prove it' argument. And as used as this argument is, what if things matter more then you think you do, and you do end up in my or some other religions Hell?
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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:25 pm
Shiori Miko Artto xxEternallyBluexx I don't think so... I think that everyone longs for eternity and God, even if they don't realize it. That's a sneaky. How can I possibly argue with such a statement? If I tell you, that I don't feel any void in my life, and that I don't feel the need for a god, you just say that I do, but I don't realize it. How can anyone possibly argue with that? Who cares if we don't realize it if we're enjoying life anyway? Quote: It is hard to have patience with people who say "There is no death" or "Death doesn't matter." There is death. And whatever is matters. And whatever happens has consequences, and it and they are irrevocable and irreversible. You might as well say that birth doesn't matter. C. S. Lewis Plus the majority of the human race has been unhappy. It's only within the last few centuries a real middle class has developed, and people are expected to be happy and that's more in our country then others. That's why it was usually wealthier people who could afford to be athiests, when there were athiests-they were the ones who wouldn't be destroyed by despair.
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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:09 pm
xxEternallyBluexx Shiori Miko Artto xxEternallyBluexx I don't think so... I think that everyone longs for eternity and God, even if they don't realize it. That's a sneaky. How can I possibly argue with such a statement? If I tell you, that I don't feel any void in my life, and that I don't feel the need for a god, you just say that I do, but I don't realize it. How can anyone possibly argue with that? Who cares if we don't realize it if we're enjoying life anyway? Quote: It is hard to have patience with people who say "There is no death" or "Death doesn't matter." There is death. And whatever is matters. And whatever happens has consequences, and it and they are irrevocable and irreversible. You might as well say that birth doesn't matter. C. S. Lewis Plus the majority of the human race has been unhappy. It's only within the last few centuries a real middle class has developed, and people are expected to be happy and that's more in our country then others. That's why it was usually wealthier people who could afford to be athiests, when there were athiests-they were the ones who wouldn't be destroyed by despair. I'm not the majority, they can be whatever they please. I am far far far far from wealthy. I'm happier not believing in god. Believing in god made me pretty damn depressed.
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Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:16 am
Assuming there's one religion that got it right, as I think you believe (do you?), how do you know it's yours? Maybe everyone goes to hell, except for the Mormons! How can you tell for sure you're the one who's protected?
As for myself, I have absolutely no reason on Earth to ever believe that there is a hell. So many religions claim that if you don't follow them, you'd go to hell. So how do you know which one to choose?
And you know what else? Faith isn't supposed to be something you follow because you're scared of eternal torture. We were talking about hope and the meaning of life here - isn't this what faith should be based upon, instead of fear? If the reason to convert is 'if you don't then you go to hell', then really, no thanks. That gives you no strength whatsoever.
Also, I don't agree with what you're saying about Atheism, middle class and happiness one bit. You think only people in the US are capable of thinking somewhere 'beyond'? People wrote about happiness and the meaning of life centuries ago. I won't even direct you to Greek philosophy; read Ecclesiastes. It's a great book that's all about things we're discussing right now. Since you're on it, the Book of Job is dealing with matters people are still writing essays on to this day. Song of Songs is all about love and passion. Those things were written millennia ago. People weren't stupid simple minded creatures until the past century. The love of your children, family, friends, the little things that make you happy, the beauty of nature, all those things, and other things - are nowhere near new.
People also weren't miserable until the American middle class introduced happiness to the world. Life has so many things that aren't fancy houses in the suburbs and a Ford to offer.
You don't have to be middle class in America to be happy. The basic, beautiful things in life never changed.
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:03 am
Shiori Miko xxEternallyBluexx Shiori Miko Artto xxEternallyBluexx I don't think so... I think that everyone longs for eternity and God, even if they don't realize it. That's a sneaky. How can I possibly argue with such a statement? If I tell you, that I don't feel any void in my life, and that I don't feel the need for a god, you just say that I do, but I don't realize it. How can anyone possibly argue with that? Who cares if we don't realize it if we're enjoying life anyway? Quote: It is hard to have patience with people who say "There is no death" or "Death doesn't matter." There is death. And whatever is matters. And whatever happens has consequences, and it and they are irrevocable and irreversible. You might as well say that birth doesn't matter. C. S. Lewis Plus the majority of the human race has been unhappy. It's only within the last few centuries a real middle class has developed, and people are expected to be happy and that's more in our country then others. That's why it was usually wealthier people who could afford to be athiests, when there were athiests-they were the ones who wouldn't be destroyed by despair. I'm not the majority, they can be whatever they please. I am far far far far from wealthy. I'm happier not believing in god. Believing in god made me pretty damn depressed. According to my brother, my single mom who barely gets by is in the top 1% wealth wise. He could be wrong, and I'll go check out the statistic, but if it's true, then I bet you're wealthy too. How'd believing in Him do that?
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:36 am
Our definition, and by "our" I mean us with computers and internet, of wealth and poverty, is pretty off, I think.
I'm considered bellow poverty line in my country. I'm pretty far bellow it. However, I still have food, running water, electricity, heating, a phone, internet, and such. I even pay for university tuition. So I may not be able to afford much more than those things, but I have more than what I'd consider necessary.
Where have I read it? I think it was Kurt Vonnegut who wrote about how lucky are those in developed countries (he was talking about the United States, but whatever) where even some of the poor people are overweight.
A person who would be considered poor in one country is rich somewhere else.
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:43 am
Im A Little Pea Assuming there's one religion that got it right, as I think you believe (do you?), how do you know it's yours? Maybe everyone goes to hell, except for the Mormons! How can you tell for sure you're the one who's protected? As for myself, I have absolutely no reason on Earth to ever believe that there is a hell. So many religions claim that if you don't follow them, you'd go to hell. So how do you know which one to choose? And you know what else? Faith isn't supposed to be something you follow because you're scared of eternal torture. We were talking about hope and the meaning of life here - isn't this what faith should be based upon, instead of fear? If the reason to convert is 'if you don't then you go to hell', then really, no thanks. That gives you no strength whatsoever. Also, I don't agree with what you're saying about Atheism, middle class and happiness one bit. You think only people in the US are capable of thinking somewhere 'beyond'? People wrote about happiness and the meaning of life centuries ago. I won't even direct you to Greek philosophy; read Ecclesiastes. It's a great book that's all about things we're discussing right now. Since you're on it, the Book of Job is dealing with matters people are still writing essays on to this day. Song of Songs is all about love and passion. Those things were written millennia ago. People weren't stupid simple minded creatures until the past century. The love of your children, family, friends, the little things that make you happy, the beauty of nature, all those things, and other things - are nowhere near new. People also weren't miserable until the American middle class introduced happiness to the world. Life has so many things that aren't fancy houses in the suburbs and a Ford to offer. You don't have to be middle class in America to be happy. The basic, beautiful things in life never changed. I actually think it's less about religion and more about following Jesus and having a relationship with God. And I know we're the ones protected because my mom had a vision of Hell which helped get into the relationship with God she has now, and because I see and hear stories of people recieving visions of Jesus, except for the odd person here and there which could be the devil's doing, or the truth twisted. Can you name more then three, please? I don't think there's that many actually, but I'd love find out rather there really is or not. True, it's supposed to be based on a revelation of the Lord. I can't really give you one of those. I can do logic, but revelation is something you have to ask Him for. I don't think that, but I certainly think that people before modern convenience were spending a lot more time trying to survive then debating on Gaia forums. How many ancient writers had either time or money? I bet the majority did, because it's doubtful otherwise they would've had the time, or the materials to record it. And in the Bible most of the writers were blessed with a lot of prosperity, especially in the OT. Job was wealthy, and so was Soloman. Those who weren't wealthy were radical, working for change, and working for God, which are also good ways to gain some knowledge, and learn some wisdom. The majority of the ancient world didn't have those conditions going for them though. As for happiness...most historical novels don't strike me as particularely happy. And people in America are expected to be happier then people were in the past centuires, and when life was hard and you were just trying to survive, I think you'd cling to the belief that at some point you would be rewarded. Why would you want to work when you knew that all that you and your children, and your children's children would just disappear into a void of nothingness? I think the wealthy were the athiests because even if their life did end that way, why would they care if they were having a good time? I doubt those living in poverty were having the same good time. I never said they did, but you're mistaking despair for sadness, and happiness for hope. Hope is why we get up in the mornings. If the poor did not have God, I think the majority of them didn't have something else to look forward to (have you seen how hard it is to move up in most socities?) so they would've been more likely to give up. Despair is this all-consuming feeling where you have no hope of anything, and so are basically ready to be done with life (it's what I feel when I think of life without God and maybe a little more often then that...). Despair, in my experience does not care if you have a family, enjoy nature, or have a fun hobby. Despair says,"Life sucks, so go and die". If you're hope was the Lord, and you figured He didn't exist, depending on the type of person you are, you could very easily go out and try to find a way to die. Back before hospitals, psychiatric hospitals and government aid, I imagine it was far easier to give up and die of starvation, or disease, or find a pool or something sharp, and make sure they didn't find you in time, if indeed they would help because they might not have the food to feed you, the time to take care of you, or the meds and skills to heal you.
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:18 am
But other people have had visions of Muhammad, for example. Check out the Muslim subforum, there's a very interesting thread there about 'why do people refuse to turn to Islam', and the person writing there is mentioning all sorts of miracles that remind me very much of what you're saying.
I know it isn't the same to you. But to me, as someone who's not part of either Christianity or Islam, it does.
I'm not sure who are those three you're asking me to name more from, could you please specify?
The main problem we have when trying to get into the heads of people in the past, is that the poor, usually, couldn't read and write. They left no written record of their thoughts and ideas.
But the issue isn't 'only people now are expected to be happy'; I think it's something else. I think people have always wanted to be happy - it is the definition of happiness that has gone wrong in some countries. For many reasons, the idea that happiness is being very rich found many followers. This idea is great for advertisement, but as you must know, it doesn't work that way in the real world.
I think you can find very happy rich people and very miserable ones, same for poor people. Same for middle class people. There's much more to it than possessions. I've been in situations in life where I thought things were going pretty well for me, when people around me living in the same conditions and situation exactly felt that their life sucked. The only difference between me and them was attitude. At any given moment, you can choose the way you look at things.
And another thing, I don't think it was people getting wealthier that has made Atheism more popular; if anything, it probably had more to do with science. Science gave different answer to questions only religion could answer before. After all, there have been rich, religious people throughout history; king, dukes, all people who had higher status - they weren't any less religious than the poor. Solomon wasn't an Atheist after all - after all those questions he posed, he found his own meaning in god. Did they need less hope than those struggling to survive? Maybe they needed about as much.
I think the Maslow's hierarchy of needs should be turned upside-down. In order to struggle and be willing to stand very difficult conditions, you have to have something to do it for. If you hadn't, your efforts could seem pretty vain and you'd just give up trying.
I'm an Atheist. And I do have what keeps me struggling in bad times too. Some turn to god for that - I have no problem with that - but it doesn't work for me. Yes, I think one day I and all those around me are going to disappear into a void of nothingness. Sure I care. I don't want to die. But it doesn't make any of this any less worthy. It is worthy as long as it exists. The future does not eliminate the present.
I think we have different ways of reaching to the same spot. We're dealing with feelings; when it comes to feelings, there aren't really many limitations.
Religion just doesn't do it for me. I tagged along one of my relatives to her Presbyterian church once to see what it's like, and tagged along a Jewish friend to a synagogue. I left them both pretty confused and feeling out of place.
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