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 Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:51 pm
Blue, it's obvious she's insulted. Just agree to disagree and get along with your lives.
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Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:50 am
xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx I never said anything about an instant 360, or being perfect instantly. But a major point is realizing you're a sinner and need Him. You said you were a 'good person' beforehand, but I don't know of any Christians who would say that. I wouldn't say that, and I accepted him the first time I felt guilty (I was around 3). Christians are supposed to strive for perfection and being like Jesus though. This isn't a passive religion or relationship. God is someone you have to seek after. I also don't know of any Christians who wouldn't bow to God or Jesus. That was another indicator. That's part of what the whole praying on your knees with your hands folded thing is about you know. I'm not judging you, I'm just going off what you said and what I know about my own religion. I could send what you said off to my brother (who is gonna be a pastor, so he should know) and see if he agrees. And a lot of Christians would also say if you don't believe Jesus is God, you aren't a Christian, but I'm not gonna go that far. That is a clear judgement call. And I could care less what your brother thinks or that he's going to be a pastor. I do not trust so called holy men. I trust in Jesus and God only. However to me, Jesus is my spiritual teacher. He guides me and teaches me. I do not need some mortal to do that. I don't look at sin as some evil thing. I look at sin as the things we need to work on, our shortcomings as humans. They are the things we need to improve on. I have not killed, cheated or stole. I never lied when I was younger. So yes I was a good person. Why? Because I was born like everyone else with a clean slate. When I became Christian, I was but a babe. I did not know what sin was, I was not of the age of accountability. How could I know when I didn't understand the concept of good or bad. I doubt that you had a feeling of guilt when you were three. Chances are your parents caused you to feel guilt instead of calmly teaching you that what you did was wrong. Parents should never guilt trip their kids even at a young age. It's sickening when they do. Except believing that Jesus is God, isn't a teaching for everyone. Not all Christians accept he is God. Some believe that he is simply the Son of God, the Savior and a spiritual teacher. To some going as far as calling him God, would be idolatry. When I pray I never kneel. I either stand or I sit. But I will never kneel. To me, kneeling is a sign of weakness and a sign that you have a weak faith. By standing, it's a sign that I am strong and unwavering. It also shows that I respect God. At the end of the prayer besides saying Amen, I will bow my head out of respect and clap my hands twice to sort of end whatever trance I am in, if I am in one. It's an unconscious thing I do to make sure my mind and my body are both aware of it's surroundings. Actually it's not, at least, not the way you mean it. I'm not condeming you, I'm just letting you know where you're off. Anyway, if you don't want you're opinions eveluated, you shouldn't post them. And there are some holy men and women who know more then you. It's not wrong to call upon their opinion. You can't become a Christian as a baby. You have to accept Him as Lord and Savior, and the reason for doing that is because we've sinned, so we need Him to redeem us. I did. I distinctly remember the feeling. And my mom didn't 'guilt trip' me. I went to her, and said I didn't feel right. According to her me and my three sibs all did that, and she only told me that after I brought it up with her. And my dad was more likely to do the guilt trip thing, but he wasn't around. What I felt had nothing to do with my parents, and everything to do with the fact I sinned and was seperated from the Lord by that. I believe Jesus is God. But I'm not gonna go into that. Kneeling is a sign of respect. You'd kneel before a king, and Jesus is the King of Kings. If you believe He's Lord, then there's a submissive attitude that goes along with that. And He also values our obedience. While He's supposed to be our friend and teacher He's also supposed to be our sheperd, Lord, and King. He's in charge. Actually you bow before a king you don't normally kneel unless you're asking for forgiveness because you screwed up. And yes you can become a Christian as a baby. There's a thing called baptism at birth. Just because you don't accept it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's pretty ignorant and intellectually dishonest to even say that you can't become a Christian as a baby. neutral And again, whether or not someone isn't a Christian, isn't a judgment call for you to make. You are neither God nor are you Jesus. If I were you, I'd bite my tongue and know where my place is, young one. Well, you have to repent for your sins, so technically kneeling is appropriate. That's a Catholic belief. Are you a Catholic? If you are, some would argue you're not a Christian. I think some Catholics are Christians, but being Catholic doesn't automatically make you one. Like I said, I'm not judging. And no, I'm not gonna bite my tongue on this. I'm not God or Jesus, but if you're advocating beliefs not of my religion, and attributing them to my religion, I'm gonna say something. And how old are you anyway? I'm 17, and a lot of the stuff I'm saying my mom would comfirm and she's 53. And @ Shiori: Untrue. Most religions have major points you have to believe in order to be of that religion. For some, there's major things you have to do in order to become part of it. And not exactly. You're parent's values have a negative or positive impact on you. You have to really make an active choice regarding them, so even those you really can't ignore. No it's not. Prove it! Seriously where's the chapter and verse that says you HAVE to kneel. Because quite frankly it's a folkway. Folkways are things we do unconsciously according to how society feels. For example when you're in an elevator, you face the door. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folkways_(sociology) Age has nothing to do with religion. It doesn't ******** matter what your mommy can ******** confirm. She's not ******** God either. Nor is she Jesus. The major point of Christian is not repenting for your sins. It's not kneeling when you pray. It's not taking communion and confirmation. But it's believing that Christ is your savior. That's it. That's all. The rest is minor stuff. To be Christian means to be Christ-like. To be a Catholic however you must take Communion and take Confirmation. Seeing as how I never went through Confirmation, I'm not a Catholic. However being a Catholic does mean you are automatically Christian. Because to be Catholic, you are to accept Jesus as your savior. And Catholicism IS a denomination of Christianity and one of the oldest. And believing isn't necessary for religions. There is a such thing as atheistic religions. Your parent's values actually don't have a negative or positive impact on you. It is up to you whether to follow them or not. Your parents are not the only source for values. You can actually come up with your own, that weren't taught to you by your parents, because they were something you learned on your journey through life. You can also get your values from your grandparents, teachers, friends, etc. I would concede at this point if I were you, Blue. :3
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Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:45 pm
xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx I never said anything about an instant 360, or being perfect instantly. But a major point is realizing you're a sinner and need Him. You said you were a 'good person' beforehand, but I don't know of any Christians who would say that. I wouldn't say that, and I accepted him the first time I felt guilty (I was around 3). Christians are supposed to strive for perfection and being like Jesus though. This isn't a passive religion or relationship. God is someone you have to seek after. I also don't know of any Christians who wouldn't bow to God or Jesus. That was another indicator. That's part of what the whole praying on your knees with your hands folded thing is about you know. I'm not judging you, I'm just going off what you said and what I know about my own religion. I could send what you said off to my brother (who is gonna be a pastor, so he should know) and see if he agrees. And a lot of Christians would also say if you don't believe Jesus is God, you aren't a Christian, but I'm not gonna go that far. That is a clear judgement call. And I could care less what your brother thinks or that he's going to be a pastor. I do not trust so called holy men. I trust in Jesus and God only. However to me, Jesus is my spiritual teacher. He guides me and teaches me. I do not need some mortal to do that. I don't look at sin as some evil thing. I look at sin as the things we need to work on, our shortcomings as humans. They are the things we need to improve on. I have not killed, cheated or stole. I never lied when I was younger. So yes I was a good person. Why? Because I was born like everyone else with a clean slate. When I became Christian, I was but a babe. I did not know what sin was, I was not of the age of accountability. How could I know when I didn't understand the concept of good or bad. I doubt that you had a feeling of guilt when you were three. Chances are your parents caused you to feel guilt instead of calmly teaching you that what you did was wrong. Parents should never guilt trip their kids even at a young age. It's sickening when they do. Except believing that Jesus is God, isn't a teaching for everyone. Not all Christians accept he is God. Some believe that he is simply the Son of God, the Savior and a spiritual teacher. To some going as far as calling him God, would be idolatry. When I pray I never kneel. I either stand or I sit. But I will never kneel. To me, kneeling is a sign of weakness and a sign that you have a weak faith. By standing, it's a sign that I am strong and unwavering. It also shows that I respect God. At the end of the prayer besides saying Amen, I will bow my head out of respect and clap my hands twice to sort of end whatever trance I am in, if I am in one. It's an unconscious thing I do to make sure my mind and my body are both aware of it's surroundings. Actually it's not, at least, not the way you mean it. I'm not condeming you, I'm just letting you know where you're off. Anyway, if you don't want you're opinions eveluated, you shouldn't post them. And there are some holy men and women who know more then you. It's not wrong to call upon their opinion. You can't become a Christian as a baby. You have to accept Him as Lord and Savior, and the reason for doing that is because we've sinned, so we need Him to redeem us. I did. I distinctly remember the feeling. And my mom didn't 'guilt trip' me. I went to her, and said I didn't feel right. According to her me and my three sibs all did that, and she only told me that after I brought it up with her. And my dad was more likely to do the guilt trip thing, but he wasn't around. What I felt had nothing to do with my parents, and everything to do with the fact I sinned and was seperated from the Lord by that. I believe Jesus is God. But I'm not gonna go into that. Kneeling is a sign of respect. You'd kneel before a king, and Jesus is the King of Kings. If you believe He's Lord, then there's a submissive attitude that goes along with that. And He also values our obedience. While He's supposed to be our friend and teacher He's also supposed to be our sheperd, Lord, and King. He's in charge. Actually you bow before a king you don't normally kneel unless you're asking for forgiveness because you screwed up. And yes you can become a Christian as a baby. There's a thing called baptism at birth. Just because you don't accept it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's pretty ignorant and intellectually dishonest to even say that you can't become a Christian as a baby. neutral And again, whether or not someone isn't a Christian, isn't a judgment call for you to make. You are neither God nor are you Jesus. If I were you, I'd bite my tongue and know where my place is, young one. Well, you have to repent for your sins, so technically kneeling is appropriate. That's a Catholic belief. Are you a Catholic? If you are, some would argue you're not a Christian. I think some Catholics are Christians, but being Catholic doesn't automatically make you one. Like I said, I'm not judging. And no, I'm not gonna bite my tongue on this. I'm not God or Jesus, but if you're advocating beliefs not of my religion, and attributing them to my religion, I'm gonna say something. And how old are you anyway? I'm 17, and a lot of the stuff I'm saying my mom would comfirm and she's 53. And @ Shiori: Untrue. Most religions have major points you have to believe in order to be of that religion. For some, there's major things you have to do in order to become part of it. And not exactly. You're parent's values have a negative or positive impact on you. You have to really make an active choice regarding them, so even those you really can't ignore. No it's not. Prove it! Seriously where's the chapter and verse that says you HAVE to kneel. Because quite frankly it's a folkway. Folkways are things we do unconsciously according to how society feels. For example when you're in an elevator, you face the door. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folkways_(sociology) Age has nothing to do with religion. It doesn't ******** matter what your mommy can ******** confirm. She's not ******** God either. Nor is she Jesus. The major point of Christian is not repenting for your sins. It's not kneeling when you pray. It's not taking communion and confirmation. But it's believing that Christ is your savior. That's it. That's all. The rest is minor stuff. To be Christian means to be Christ-like. To be a Catholic however you must take Communion and take Confirmation. Seeing as how I never went through Confirmation, I'm not a Catholic. However being a Catholic does mean you are automatically Christian. Because to be Catholic, you are to accept Jesus as your savior. And Catholicism IS a denomination of Christianity and one of the oldest. And believing isn't necessary for religions. There is a such thing as atheistic religions. Your parent's values actually don't have a negative or positive impact on you. It is up to you whether to follow them or not. Your parents are not the only source for values. You can actually come up with your own, that weren't taught to you by your parents, because they were something you learned on your journey through life. You can also get your values from your grandparents, teachers, friends, etc. I would concede at this point if I were you, Blue. :3 The verse about bowing or kneeling, because the point about bowing is actually more important and I can back tit up with Bible verses: Let us bow down in worship before the Lord. Psalm 95:6 Phillipians 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. There's songs written about it too: http://preciouslordtakemyhand.com/publish/christianhymns/we-bow-down/# Wiki? I've heard wikipedia's inaccurate because anyone can modify it. You called me 'young'. I wasn't about to let it go. Yes, but He Saves you from the consequences of your sins. And, like I said, it's more about the fact you say you're a Christian, but you won't bow to God's Will. Nope, all it takes to be Catholic is being baptised as an infant. Infant baptism isn't in the Bible, which is why my church doesn't do it. It's necessary for certain religions, such as the one we're discussing. Besides I said 'most' not 'all'. And I'd disagree. If you're parents have values there's bound to be some you agree and disagree with. Like I take it most people figure lying's wrong? Who taught you first? And if no one taught you, it's support for Original Sin, because you knew right and wrong before you're parents and society taught you. Nope, but if you agree to drop by agreeing to disagree, I will too.
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Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:51 pm
xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx Actually it's not, at least, not the way you mean it. I'm not condeming you, I'm just letting you know where you're off. Anyway, if you don't want you're opinions eveluated, you shouldn't post them. And there are some holy men and women who know more then you. It's not wrong to call upon their opinion. You can't become a Christian as a baby. You have to accept Him as Lord and Savior, and the reason for doing that is because we've sinned, so we need Him to redeem us. I did. I distinctly remember the feeling. And my mom didn't 'guilt trip' me. I went to her, and said I didn't feel right. According to her me and my three sibs all did that, and she only told me that after I brought it up with her. And my dad was more likely to do the guilt trip thing, but he wasn't around. What I felt had nothing to do with my parents, and everything to do with the fact I sinned and was seperated from the Lord by that. I believe Jesus is God. But I'm not gonna go into that. Kneeling is a sign of respect. You'd kneel before a king, and Jesus is the King of Kings. If you believe He's Lord, then there's a submissive attitude that goes along with that. And He also values our obedience. While He's supposed to be our friend and teacher He's also supposed to be our sheperd, Lord, and King. He's in charge. Actually you bow before a king you don't normally kneel unless you're asking for forgiveness because you screwed up. And yes you can become a Christian as a baby. There's a thing called baptism at birth. Just because you don't accept it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's pretty ignorant and intellectually dishonest to even say that you can't become a Christian as a baby. neutral And again, whether or not someone isn't a Christian, isn't a judgment call for you to make. You are neither God nor are you Jesus. If I were you, I'd bite my tongue and know where my place is, young one. Well, you have to repent for your sins, so technically kneeling is appropriate. That's a Catholic belief. Are you a Catholic? If you are, some would argue you're not a Christian. I think some Catholics are Christians, but being Catholic doesn't automatically make you one. Like I said, I'm not judging. And no, I'm not gonna bite my tongue on this. I'm not God or Jesus, but if you're advocating beliefs not of my religion, and attributing them to my religion, I'm gonna say something. And how old are you anyway? I'm 17, and a lot of the stuff I'm saying my mom would comfirm and she's 53. And @ Shiori: Untrue. Most religions have major points you have to believe in order to be of that religion. For some, there's major things you have to do in order to become part of it. And not exactly. You're parent's values have a negative or positive impact on you. You have to really make an active choice regarding them, so even those you really can't ignore. No it's not. Prove it! Seriously where's the chapter and verse that says you HAVE to kneel. Because quite frankly it's a folkway. Folkways are things we do unconsciously according to how society feels. For example when you're in an elevator, you face the door. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folkways_(sociology) Age has nothing to do with religion. It doesn't ******** matter what your mommy can ******** confirm. She's not ******** God either. Nor is she Jesus. The major point of Christian is not repenting for your sins. It's not kneeling when you pray. It's not taking communion and confirmation. But it's believing that Christ is your savior. That's it. That's all. The rest is minor stuff. To be Christian means to be Christ-like. To be a Catholic however you must take Communion and take Confirmation. Seeing as how I never went through Confirmation, I'm not a Catholic. However being a Catholic does mean you are automatically Christian. Because to be Catholic, you are to accept Jesus as your savior. And Catholicism IS a denomination of Christianity and one of the oldest. And believing isn't necessary for religions. There is a such thing as atheistic religions. Your parent's values actually don't have a negative or positive impact on you. It is up to you whether to follow them or not. Your parents are not the only source for values. You can actually come up with your own, that weren't taught to you by your parents, because they were something you learned on your journey through life. You can also get your values from your grandparents, teachers, friends, etc. I would concede at this point if I were you, Blue. :3 The verse about bowing or kneeling, because the point about bowing is actually more important and I can back tit up with Bible verses: Let us bow down in worship before the Lord. Psalm 95:6 Phillipians 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. There's songs written about it too: http://preciouslordtakemyhand.com/publish/christianhymns/we-bow-down/# Wiki? I've heard wikipedia's inaccurate because anyone can modify it. You called me 'young'. I wasn't about to let it go. Yes, but He Saves you from the consequences of your sins. And, like I said, it's more about the fact you say you're a Christian, but you won't bow to God's Will. Nope, all it takes to be Catholic is being baptised as an infant. Infant baptism isn't in the Bible, which is why my church doesn't do it. It's necessary for certain religions, such as the one we're discussing. Besides I said 'most' not 'all'. And I'd disagree. If you're parents have values there's bound to be some you agree and disagree with. Like I take it most people figure lying's wrong? Who taught you first? And if no one taught you, it's support for Original Sin, because you knew right and wrong before you're parents and society taught you. Nope, but if you agree to drop by agreeing to disagree, I will too. Because you clearly don't know what you're talking about. If you don't do the rites of a Catholic you're not a Catholic at all. Catholicism is a little of an orthopraxic religion, in which the practices matter more than the beliefs.
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Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:32 pm
xxEternallyBluexx brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx But one could argue that laws are based off values. And there's still the matter of your parents teaching you their values. You can't really escape it. Still. Values are subjective and they differ for everyone and their different in every culture and religion. My point is more that you can't escape values being forced on you, not (at least for this point) that one set is better then another. Well, did you consider yourself a good person beforehand? Do you recognize you need Jesus to save you? Are you fully devoted to Him, doing everything you can to please Him?
Sometimes it is unavoidable, but there are problems (in America at least) that are heavily based in Christian beliefs, such as keeping bans on same sex marriage and debating whether intelligent design should be taught with evolution, that should be kept as objective as possible.
And since I abandoned my religion I've put more thought towards morals and ethics because I've had to decide for myself what's right and what's wrong.
I can honestly say that I'm a better person without religion because I have to take responsibility for my own thoughts and actions.
Not to say that people who do get their values from religion are any less moral, but a person doesn't need religion to do good.Unless it's the parents doing the forcing and you're under a certain age, and said values aren't hurting anyone. And I happen to believe same-sex marriage should be banned (marriage is usuallly a religious thing. I suppose getting married by someone other then a priest or a rabbi would be different, but they definetely should not be married in the church). I also think if there's any homosexuals who don't want to be homosexual, they should be given a way turn around (by choice). I also think my God can change any Christian who's homosexual heterosexual, and that anyone who's a Christian should seek that change. I also believe in Creationism, and think it's brain washing to only teach one angle and I think calling a baby is a fetus is a great way to use science terms to make it okay to kill 'fetuses'. It's like if you said someone had to be 'put down'. And I can see you're point, but that's why there aren't really second generation Christians. You can be raised in the church, but most of the kids come to a point where they really start to think about it. And I honestly think that being a Christian does make you a better person because not only are you trying to change, but you have a higher power helping you. You can still go back and repent if you do sin, but if you love Him, you'll do everything you can to avoid sinning. It's about more then being a 'good person'. Christianity says if you've done one thing wrong, you're evil. Christianity's about turning away from that, and trying to become like Jesus (perfect). It may not happen until Heaven, but that's what's being reached for. If everyone tried to be perfect (and didn't focus on anyone else's errors) and also put everyone else before themselves, I think we might have a utopia.
But I'm just so completely againts your first paragraph and have to say a few things...
First of all, maybe that's your religious belief, but what gives you the right to tell other people that they can't get married?
People who might not even share your religion?
And you do realize that when you deny them the right to get married you deny them all of the rights that apply to married couples, right?
And what makes homosexuality wrong? It's in the bible?
It's also in the bible that you can't eat pork or shellfish (or bats if any of you have been eating bats) and that slavery is okay as long as you follow a few rules.
People don't choose to be gay, and they can't choose to be straight either.
By banning same sex marriage you're forcing your religion on others and denying people, people who've done nothing wrong, rights.
And if you believe in creationism, that's fine, it's not any of my business, but it's not science.
It shouldn't be taught in science class.
If your parents want you to learn it, that's fine.
If they teach it at church or sunday school, good. That's what it's for.
Public school science class, no.
And people are not automatically good because they are Christians.
There are plenty of bad, corrupt, dishonest people who are Christian.
I try to take do the right thing and be a good person on my own.
I don't need a god to believe that. I do it on my own. And with none of the extra dogma.
If everyone tried to be a little better, period, the world would be a better place.
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:57 pm
brainnsoup I don't want to turn this into a political debate...
But I'm just so completely againts your first paragraph and have to say a few things...
First of all, maybe that's your religious belief, but what gives you the right to tell other people that they can't get married?
People who might not even share your religion?
And you do realize that when you deny them the right to get married you deny them all of the rights that apply to married couples, right?
And what makes homosexuality wrong? It's in the bible?
It's also in the bible that you can't eat pork or shellfish (or bats if any of you have been eating bats) and that slavery is okay as long as you follow a few rules.
People don't choose to be gay, and they can't choose to be straight either.
By banning same sex marriage you're forcing your religion on others and denying people, people who've done nothing wrong, rights.
And if you believe in creationism, that's fine, it's not any of my business, but it's not science.
It shouldn't be taught in science class.
If your parents want you to learn it, that's fine.
If they teach it at church or sunday school, good. That's what it's for.
Public school science class, no.
And people are not automatically good because they are Christians.
There are plenty of bad, corrupt, dishonest people who are Christian.
I try to take do the right thing and be a good person on my own.
I don't need a god to believe that. I do it on my own. And with none of the extra dogma.
If everyone tried to be a little better, period, the world would be a better place. Cheers to that *raises glass* We've let our friends and loved ones suffer long enough by making them feel as if something were wrong with them, as if they were less than human, it's about time we recognize that pattern in history and do something about it. Marriage is not a religious institution alone, it's dictated by the state and the state should not be catering to any religious group but to the law. That's how a Republic works.
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:42 pm
xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx Actually it's not, at least, not the way you mean it. I'm not condeming you, I'm just letting you know where you're off. Anyway, if you don't want you're opinions eveluated, you shouldn't post them. And there are some holy men and women who know more then you. It's not wrong to call upon their opinion. You can't become a Christian as a baby. You have to accept Him as Lord and Savior, and the reason for doing that is because we've sinned, so we need Him to redeem us. I did. I distinctly remember the feeling. And my mom didn't 'guilt trip' me. I went to her, and said I didn't feel right. According to her me and my three sibs all did that, and she only told me that after I brought it up with her. And my dad was more likely to do the guilt trip thing, but he wasn't around. What I felt had nothing to do with my parents, and everything to do with the fact I sinned and was seperated from the Lord by that. I believe Jesus is God. But I'm not gonna go into that. Kneeling is a sign of respect. You'd kneel before a king, and Jesus is the King of Kings. If you believe He's Lord, then there's a submissive attitude that goes along with that. And He also values our obedience. While He's supposed to be our friend and teacher He's also supposed to be our sheperd, Lord, and King. He's in charge. Actually you bow before a king you don't normally kneel unless you're asking for forgiveness because you screwed up. And yes you can become a Christian as a baby. There's a thing called baptism at birth. Just because you don't accept it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's pretty ignorant and intellectually dishonest to even say that you can't become a Christian as a baby. neutral And again, whether or not someone isn't a Christian, isn't a judgment call for you to make. You are neither God nor are you Jesus. If I were you, I'd bite my tongue and know where my place is, young one. Well, you have to repent for your sins, so technically kneeling is appropriate. That's a Catholic belief. Are you a Catholic? If you are, some would argue you're not a Christian. I think some Catholics are Christians, but being Catholic doesn't automatically make you one. Like I said, I'm not judging. And no, I'm not gonna bite my tongue on this. I'm not God or Jesus, but if you're advocating beliefs not of my religion, and attributing them to my religion, I'm gonna say something. And how old are you anyway? I'm 17, and a lot of the stuff I'm saying my mom would comfirm and she's 53. And @ Shiori: Untrue. Most religions have major points you have to believe in order to be of that religion. For some, there's major things you have to do in order to become part of it. And not exactly. You're parent's values have a negative or positive impact on you. You have to really make an active choice regarding them, so even those you really can't ignore. No it's not. Prove it! Seriously where's the chapter and verse that says you HAVE to kneel. Because quite frankly it's a folkway. Folkways are things we do unconsciously according to how society feels. For example when you're in an elevator, you face the door. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folkways_(sociology) Age has nothing to do with religion. It doesn't ******** matter what your mommy can ******** confirm. She's not ******** God either. Nor is she Jesus. The major point of Christian is not repenting for your sins. It's not kneeling when you pray. It's not taking communion and confirmation. But it's believing that Christ is your savior. That's it. That's all. The rest is minor stuff. To be Christian means to be Christ-like. To be a Catholic however you must take Communion and take Confirmation. Seeing as how I never went through Confirmation, I'm not a Catholic. However being a Catholic does mean you are automatically Christian. Because to be Catholic, you are to accept Jesus as your savior. And Catholicism IS a denomination of Christianity and one of the oldest. And believing isn't necessary for religions. There is a such thing as atheistic religions. Your parent's values actually don't have a negative or positive impact on you. It is up to you whether to follow them or not. Your parents are not the only source for values. You can actually come up with your own, that weren't taught to you by your parents, because they were something you learned on your journey through life. You can also get your values from your grandparents, teachers, friends, etc. I would concede at this point if I were you, Blue. :3 The verse about bowing or kneeling, because the point about bowing is actually more important and I can back tit up with Bible verses: Let us bow down in worship before the Lord. Psalm 95:6 Phillipians 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. There's songs written about it too: http://preciouslordtakemyhand.com/publish/christianhymns/we-bow-down/# Wiki? I've heard wikipedia's inaccurate because anyone can modify it. You called me 'young'. I wasn't about to let it go. Yes, but He Saves you from the consequences of your sins. And, like I said, it's more about the fact you say you're a Christian, but you won't bow to God's Will. Nope, all it takes to be Catholic is being baptised as an infant. Infant baptism isn't in the Bible, which is why my church doesn't do it. It's necessary for certain religions, such as the one we're discussing. Besides I said 'most' not 'all'. And I'd disagree. If you're parents have values there's bound to be some you agree and disagree with. Like I take it most people figure lying's wrong? Who taught you first? And if no one taught you, it's support for Original Sin, because you knew right and wrong before you're parents and society taught you. Nope, but if you agree to drop by agreeing to disagree, I will too. Because you clearly don't know what you're talking about. If you don't do the rites of a Catholic you're not a Catholic at all. Catholicism is a little of an orthopraxic religion, in which the practices matter more than the beliefs. I'm not a Catholic (I'm non-denominational. I hardly understood the denomination thing until I picked up a book about it back in middle school) but I know from reading autobiographies by a few Catholics that some of that denomination think all you need to be a Catholic is to be baptised as an infant. So maybe that's not how the actual religion goes, but that was a belief held by some Catholics (I think John Grogan's [the guy who wrote Marley and Me. He wrote an autobiography] mother was one. John's wife was afraid she was gonna perform a home baptism or something.) And that's part of the reason Protestants split, and also why Christians who aren't Catholic don't recognize all Catholics as Christians. It's a despute that goes back way farther then you and me. And do you wanna drop it or not?
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:08 pm
brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx But one could argue that laws are based off values. And there's still the matter of your parents teaching you their values. You can't really escape it. Still. Values are subjective and they differ for everyone and their different in every culture and religion. My point is more that you can't escape values being forced on you, not (at least for this point) that one set is better then another. Well, did you consider yourself a good person beforehand? Do you recognize you need Jesus to save you? Are you fully devoted to Him, doing everything you can to please Him?
Sometimes it is unavoidable, but there are problems (in America at least) that are heavily based in Christian beliefs, such as keeping bans on same sex marriage and debating whether intelligent design should be taught with evolution, that should be kept as objective as possible.
And since I abandoned my religion I've put more thought towards morals and ethics because I've had to decide for myself what's right and what's wrong.
I can honestly say that I'm a better person without religion because I have to take responsibility for my own thoughts and actions.
Not to say that people who do get their values from religion are any less moral, but a person doesn't need religion to do good.Unless it's the parents doing the forcing and you're under a certain age, and said values aren't hurting anyone. And I happen to believe same-sex marriage should be banned (marriage is usuallly a religious thing. I suppose getting married by someone other then a priest or a rabbi would be different, but they definetely should not be married in the church). I also think if there's any homosexuals who don't want to be homosexual, they should be given a way turn around (by choice). I also think my God can change any Christian who's homosexual heterosexual, and that anyone who's a Christian should seek that change. I also believe in Creationism, and think it's brain washing to only teach one angle and I think calling a baby is a fetus is a great way to use science terms to make it okay to kill 'fetuses'. It's like if you said someone had to be 'put down'. And I can see you're point, but that's why there aren't really second generation Christians. You can be raised in the church, but most of the kids come to a point where they really start to think about it. And I honestly think that being a Christian does make you a better person because not only are you trying to change, but you have a higher power helping you. You can still go back and repent if you do sin, but if you love Him, you'll do everything you can to avoid sinning. It's about more then being a 'good person'. Christianity says if you've done one thing wrong, you're evil. Christianity's about turning away from that, and trying to become like Jesus (perfect). It may not happen until Heaven, but that's what's being reached for. If everyone tried to be perfect (and didn't focus on anyone else's errors) and also put everyone else before themselves, I think we might have a utopia.
But I'm just so completely againts your first paragraph and have to say a few things...
First of all, maybe that's your religious belief, but what gives you the right to tell other people that they can't get married?
People who might not even share your religion?
And you do realize that when you deny them the right to get married you deny them all of the rights that apply to married couples, right?
And what makes homosexuality wrong? It's in the bible?
It's also in the bible that you can't eat pork or shellfish (or bats if any of you have been eating bats) and that slavery is okay as long as you follow a few rules.
People don't choose to be gay, and they can't choose to be straight either.
By banning same sex marriage you're forcing your religion on others and denying people, people who've done nothing wrong, rights.
And if you believe in creationism, that's fine, it's not any of my business, but it's not science.
It shouldn't be taught in science class.
If your parents want you to learn it, that's fine.
If they teach it at church or sunday school, good. That's what it's for.
Public school science class, no.
And people are not automatically good because they are Christians.
There are plenty of bad, corrupt, dishonest people who are Christian.
I try to take do the right thing and be a good person on my own.
I don't need a god to believe that. I do it on my own. And with none of the extra dogma.
If everyone tried to be a little better, period, the world would be a better place.You mean the taxes, and all that. I'm not sure where I stand on that. Maybe they should be able to get those rights, but I really don't think it should be in church. According to the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. Certain laws aren't followed by Christians because they're cultural. Moral laws (such as those pertaining to homosexuality and the Ten Commandments) are still supposed to be followed. And as for slavery, that was different in anchient Isreal. Americans were extremely cruel comparatively, and those slaves had to be reached eventually, and some of them liked their masters so much it had to be clarified how they could stay with their masters. They weren't treated as sub-human which does make it a little different. And I get your point which is why I don't tend to post or talk about my opinion on homosexuality. But the thing is, I think if my God says it's a sin, He has a good reason, and I trust Him with that. I'm not gonna go around holding rallies against gay marriage, but I'm certainly not gonna support it. I'll pray about it, but unless He clearly tells me homosexuality is okay, I'm still not gonna support it. I'm gonna look up the definition of science before I agree or disagree (can't do it on Google because it keeps giving me articles. rolleyes ). I am gonna say it as taught as a science before, they teach it in Kansas, it could be optional (that'd satisfy me and a bunch of creationists) and that I think splitting up the subjects the way they do is a little silly and would like a reform of the entire educational system, and not just the creationism thing. (Coloring Outside the Lines is a good book to read to find out what's wrong with our schools). How can you judge it? There's plenty of people who claim to be Christians but aren't, Christians who are and have been changing, but still don't compare to an athiest neighbor, and there's people like Gandhi who would be Christians were it not for them looking at the people, and not the God. Only God could keep track of it all. I truly think if everyone followed Him (not by force, not because of peer pressure, but because they knew Him) that even the people who are clearly bad would change, and we'd see an awesome world. Anyways, it's a fantasy (or a nightmare, I guess, if you aren't looking through my rose-colored glasses), but I still think He fills the hole most people have that's longing for something more.
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:18 pm
How's that Ghandi quote go? "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ."
Good people do not have to be freakin christian. I feel you're not getting that. It is possible to be a good person and say "There is no god."
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:30 pm
xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx Well, you have to repent for your sins, so technically kneeling is appropriate. That's a Catholic belief. Are you a Catholic? If you are, some would argue you're not a Christian. I think some Catholics are Christians, but being Catholic doesn't automatically make you one. Like I said, I'm not judging. And no, I'm not gonna bite my tongue on this. I'm not God or Jesus, but if you're advocating beliefs not of my religion, and attributing them to my religion, I'm gonna say something. And how old are you anyway? I'm 17, and a lot of the stuff I'm saying my mom would comfirm and she's 53. And @ Shiori: Untrue. Most religions have major points you have to believe in order to be of that religion. For some, there's major things you have to do in order to become part of it. And not exactly. You're parent's values have a negative or positive impact on you. You have to really make an active choice regarding them, so even those you really can't ignore. No it's not. Prove it! Seriously where's the chapter and verse that says you HAVE to kneel. Because quite frankly it's a folkway. Folkways are things we do unconsciously according to how society feels. For example when you're in an elevator, you face the door. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folkways_(sociology) Age has nothing to do with religion. It doesn't ******** matter what your mommy can ******** confirm. She's not ******** God either. Nor is she Jesus. The major point of Christian is not repenting for your sins. It's not kneeling when you pray. It's not taking communion and confirmation. But it's believing that Christ is your savior. That's it. That's all. The rest is minor stuff. To be Christian means to be Christ-like. To be a Catholic however you must take Communion and take Confirmation. Seeing as how I never went through Confirmation, I'm not a Catholic. However being a Catholic does mean you are automatically Christian. Because to be Catholic, you are to accept Jesus as your savior. And Catholicism IS a denomination of Christianity and one of the oldest. And believing isn't necessary for religions. There is a such thing as atheistic religions. Your parent's values actually don't have a negative or positive impact on you. It is up to you whether to follow them or not. Your parents are not the only source for values. You can actually come up with your own, that weren't taught to you by your parents, because they were something you learned on your journey through life. You can also get your values from your grandparents, teachers, friends, etc. I would concede at this point if I were you, Blue. :3 The verse about bowing or kneeling, because the point about bowing is actually more important and I can back tit up with Bible verses: Let us bow down in worship before the Lord. Psalm 95:6 Phillipians 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. There's songs written about it too: http://preciouslordtakemyhand.com/publish/christianhymns/we-bow-down/# Wiki? I've heard wikipedia's inaccurate because anyone can modify it. You called me 'young'. I wasn't about to let it go. Yes, but He Saves you from the consequences of your sins. And, like I said, it's more about the fact you say you're a Christian, but you won't bow to God's Will. Nope, all it takes to be Catholic is being baptised as an infant. Infant baptism isn't in the Bible, which is why my church doesn't do it. It's necessary for certain religions, such as the one we're discussing. Besides I said 'most' not 'all'. And I'd disagree. If you're parents have values there's bound to be some you agree and disagree with. Like I take it most people figure lying's wrong? Who taught you first? And if no one taught you, it's support for Original Sin, because you knew right and wrong before you're parents and society taught you. Nope, but if you agree to drop by agreeing to disagree, I will too. Because you clearly don't know what you're talking about. If you don't do the rites of a Catholic you're not a Catholic at all. Catholicism is a little of an orthopraxic religion, in which the practices matter more than the beliefs. I'm not a Catholic (I'm non-denominational. I hardly understood the denomination thing until I picked up a book about it back in middle school) but I know from reading autobiographies by a few Catholics that some of that denomination think all you need to be a Catholic is to be baptised as an infant. So maybe that's not how the actual religion goes, but that was a belief held by some Catholics (I think John Grogan's [the guy who wrote Marley and Me. He wrote an autobiography] mother was one. John's wife was afraid she was gonna perform a home baptism or something.) And that's part of the reason Protestants split, and also why Christians who aren't Catholic don't recognize all Catholics as Christians. It's a despute that goes back way farther then you and me. And do you wanna drop it or not? Technically speaking you're both a bit off. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church: 1249 Catechumens "are already joined to the Church, they are already of the household of Christ, and are quite frequently already living a life of faith, hope, and charity."48 "With love and solicitude mother Church already embraces them as her own."49Source(Catechumens are those who have converted to Catholicism but have not yet been baptized into the Church) I think most consider baptism into the Church to be the defining point of when a member is considered to be Catholic or at least according to most congregates. Many of the more Orthodox members would say that those who do not follow the Church are not Catholics but it all depends on the individual and their actions (they would be non-practicing catholics, Catholics in a grave state of sin, or those who completely reject the Church and are no longer considered Catholic). So I guess you both are a little bit correct as well. EDIT: I forgot to add, that those who do not consider Catholics to be Christian have no idea what Christianity is. Catholics as a whole always end up on top in the "who is a true Christian" game. I'm not saying this to detract from non-Catholic Christians, individually those who are very devout come from all different denominations and the same goes for those who are not.
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:33 pm
Shiori Miko How's that Ghandi quote go? "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." Good people do not have to be freakin christian. I feel you're not getting that. It is possible to be a good person and say "There is no god." By the secular definition, it is possible to be a 'good person' (one whose behavior is generally pleasing to society) without God. By the Christian defintion, which is the one I use, no one is good because we've all sinned and fallen short. Only Jesus is good. It's almost a miracle He decided to redeem humanity at all (one college professor whose IQ broke the scale said that the thing he couldn't understand was God's love for humanity). Christians should understand themselves to be no better then anyone else because this happens by grace, and they are no worthier then anyone else, but they have been redeemed, which wipes the slate clean. According to the Bible, we're reborn. And yep, that's how the quote goes. I think that ones actually on my profile...
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:41 pm
xxEternallyBluexx Shiori Miko How's that Ghandi quote go? "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." Good people do not have to be freakin christian. I feel you're not getting that. It is possible to be a good person and say "There is no god." By the secular definition, it is possible to be a 'good person' (one whose behavior is generally pleasing to society) without God. By the Christian defintion, which is the one I use, no one is good because we've all sinned and fallen short. Only Jesus is good. It's almost a miracle He decided to redeem humanity at all (one college professor whose IQ broke the scale said that the thing he couldn't understand was God's love for humanity). Fine, I'll rephrase. It's possible to try to be a good person without believing in a god. Quote: Christians should understand themselves to be no better then anyone else because this happens by grace, and they are no worthier then anyone else, but they have been redeemed, which wipes the slate clean. According to the Bible, we're reborn. So basically it means not to believe you're better than anyone else. We're all people, we all have our faults and should try to improve. That isn't a christian-only thing.
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:00 pm
Shiori Miko xxEternallyBluexx Shiori Miko How's that Ghandi quote go? "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." Good people do not have to be freakin christian. I feel you're not getting that. It is possible to be a good person and say "There is no god." By the secular definition, it is possible to be a 'good person' (one whose behavior is generally pleasing to society) without God. By the Christian defintion, which is the one I use, no one is good because we've all sinned and fallen short. Only Jesus is good. It's almost a miracle He decided to redeem humanity at all (one college professor whose IQ broke the scale said that the thing he couldn't understand was God's love for humanity). Fine, I'll rephrase. It's possible to try to be a good person without believing in a god. Quote: Christians should understand themselves to be no better then anyone else because this happens by grace, and they are no worthier then anyone else, but they have been redeemed, which wipes the slate clean. According to the Bible, we're reborn. So basically it means not to believe you're better than anyone else. We're all people, we all have our faults and should try to improve. That isn't a christian-only thing. Sure it's possible to try, but from the Christian POV it's impossible to succeed. You'd have to be able turn back time and not have sinned in the first place. And then you have the mind bending problem loop of, if you go back and fix it, you'll be different and you won't have to fix it, so you won't have fixed it, so you have to go back and fix it.... xp Sure, but the major point is Jesus Saved you and set you right with His Father (He Saved way more then you're life. If someone saved even just your life, and they did it by sacrificing their own, you'd feel like you owed that person everything, wouldn't you?). He gave us a gift that just about everyone is seeking. In metaphorical terms, it's kinda like we were brought to water, and other people are still seeking.
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:08 pm
xxEternallyBluexx Shiori Miko xxEternallyBluexx Shiori Miko How's that Ghandi quote go? "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." Good people do not have to be freakin christian. I feel you're not getting that. It is possible to be a good person and say "There is no god." By the secular definition, it is possible to be a 'good person' (one whose behavior is generally pleasing to society) without God. By the Christian defintion, which is the one I use, no one is good because we've all sinned and fallen short. Only Jesus is good. It's almost a miracle He decided to redeem humanity at all (one college professor whose IQ broke the scale said that the thing he couldn't understand was God's love for humanity). Fine, I'll rephrase. It's possible to try to be a good person without believing in a god. Quote: Christians should understand themselves to be no better then anyone else because this happens by grace, and they are no worthier then anyone else, but they have been redeemed, which wipes the slate clean. According to the Bible, we're reborn. So basically it means not to believe you're better than anyone else. We're all people, we all have our faults and should try to improve. That isn't a christian-only thing. Sure it's possible to try, but from the Christian POV it's impossible to succeed. You'd have to be able turn back time and not have sinned in the first place. And then you have the mind bending problem loop of, if you go back and fix it, you'll be different and you won't have to fix it, so you won't have fixed it, so you have to go back and fix it.... xp Sure, but the major point is Jesus Saved you and set you right with His Father (He Saved way more then you're life. If someone saved even just your life, and they did it by sacrificing their own, you'd feel like you owed that person everything, wouldn't you?). He gave us a gift that just about everyone is seeking. In metaphorical terms, it's kinda like we were brought to water, and other people are still seeking. Well we're thinking of different terms of good. What you're speaking of seems more along the lines of perfect. And I doubt your god would be too upset about me not following his rules as long as I try to do good in the world. He might not be what he had in mind, but he's probably flexible.
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:15 pm
Shiori Miko xxEternallyBluexx Shiori Miko xxEternallyBluexx Shiori Miko How's that Ghandi quote go? "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." Good people do not have to be freakin christian. I feel you're not getting that. It is possible to be a good person and say "There is no god." By the secular definition, it is possible to be a 'good person' (one whose behavior is generally pleasing to society) without God. By the Christian defintion, which is the one I use, no one is good because we've all sinned and fallen short. Only Jesus is good. It's almost a miracle He decided to redeem humanity at all (one college professor whose IQ broke the scale said that the thing he couldn't understand was God's love for humanity). Fine, I'll rephrase. It's possible to try to be a good person without believing in a god. Quote: Christians should understand themselves to be no better then anyone else because this happens by grace, and they are no worthier then anyone else, but they have been redeemed, which wipes the slate clean. According to the Bible, we're reborn. So basically it means not to believe you're better than anyone else. We're all people, we all have our faults and should try to improve. That isn't a christian-only thing. Sure it's possible to try, but from the Christian POV it's impossible to succeed. You'd have to be able turn back time and not have sinned in the first place. And then you have the mind bending problem loop of, if you go back and fix it, you'll be different and you won't have to fix it, so you won't have fixed it, so you have to go back and fix it.... xp Sure, but the major point is Jesus Saved you and set you right with His Father (He Saved way more then you're life. If someone saved even just your life, and they did it by sacrificing their own, you'd feel like you owed that person everything, wouldn't you?). He gave us a gift that just about everyone is seeking. In metaphorical terms, it's kinda like we were brought to water, and other people are still seeking. Well we're thinking of different terms of good. What you're speaking of seems more along the lines of perfect. And I doubt your god would be too upset about me not following his rules as long as I try to do good in the world. He might not be what he had in mind, but he's probably flexible. Yep, perfection. And people'll accept that, but my God is somewhat all or nothing. The punishment for the least sin is death, which is why Jesus had to die for us. Good and evil can't coexist forever (which is what we're asking for when we ask God to accept us as we are) but once we're cleansed of our sins, He can draw us to Him. Since He created life and all that's good, it also means He can give us that, and eventually take us to Heaven.
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