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Ok Edwin, let me explain my reason for creating Lament in the first place, since everyone seems to have their own interpretation of what my motives were.

Once upon a time, Pat suggested there be a dark city to role play in. I, having created a dark city in another guild I was frequenting, brought that city to Leviathan, with some slight changes to its description. My intent was to create a new, interesting environment for people to explore and enjoy themselves in.

THAT was my goal. To create a place for people to have fun in.

I never made it with the intention of it being an exclusive club or a "house" as several people have taken to calling it. I didn't make it to boost my ego. I didn't make it to make myself superior to anyone, or stake any claim on Leviathan's Realty. I wanted fun and enjoyment to be had in a unique environment, and anyone saying I did anything else than that disgusts me.

But what disgusts me more are the comments here about letting people do whatever they please regardless of the repercussions it'll have on others. This isn't Troy, this isn't Sparta, this isn't a ******** war zone, this is a role playing guild with real people sitting behind computers, trying to have fun, and talk with friends, and relax from their hectic and sometimes stressful lives. And here you are, essentially telling them to "go ******** themselves" if they don't like it.

The last time I checked, people came to Leviathan to enjoy themselves with MORE than just fighting one another. We aren't JUST a fighting stadium, we're a COMMUNITY, a community of people that congregate to have fun and enjoy themselves with friends. And you waltz in here, and say people can do whatever they please regardless of how badly it ******** up other people's ideas, how badly it ******** up their enjoyment and fun? What kind of selfish, immature, and uncaring comment is that Edwin?

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. One RPer with an agenda ruining the fun of everyone else in a thread just because they are unwilling to compensate and avoid the entire situation all together is simply unacceptable.

A good way to keep an army out of your city is to blow their s**t up.

I can think of a few places that would offer materials and manpower to blow s**t up in exchange for IC fun dollars.

This advert has been brought to you by Deity Incorporated; blowing s**t up since s**t first arrived

*Dissects*



The guild is categorized as a battle guild, yes, but that isn't its soul purpose, and you know it as well as I do. If all this guild was was a fighting arena, there'd be an arena, possibly a few other locations to fight in, and a large OOC thread.

We don't have that.

We have an entire WORLD to ROLEPLAY in. There aren't many people in Levi that do nothing but fight, and regular roleplaying makes up a large majority of IC actions. We might be LISTED as a battle guild, but we much much more than that.



This is a completely different issue. I've had warning, I know its coming, as do most people in the guild. One issue I have with the past invasions and subsequent attacks on my city is that no one bothered to tell me I was included in their plans.

I would generally assume that was common courtesy. I've seen no real mention of this army being drafted, or marching anywhere other than popping up in my thread and taking an attacking formation. In most battle situations here, people challenge one another to a fight and get their permission before simply duking it out with one another. I don't think this army situation should be any different. Something the powers that be might jot down for future reference.



Actually, first and foremost, I think this is a place for people to have fun and enjoy themselves while interacting with others online. I think that this concept has been lost somewhere over the last year or so, and I think it needs to be brought back.

The reason I said selfish, is because you're thinking about what you want to happen, rather than considering what the people directly involved might want to happen. As Josh said, "several (read: SEVERAL) people" have voiced complaints about this army attacking the city. I'm not alone.

I'm not the only one with an issue here. If I HAD been, then I'm pretty sure the mods would NOT have gotten involved as much as they have over the past few days. They would have told MerDerf and I to settle it between ourselves and to "not drag these issues into the OOC Thread."

Also, I'm fighting for the people that have voiced their problems with this army attacking my city. You see, I know how irritating, upsetting, and angering it is to have your RPing fun ruined by someone marching an army into the situation. It isn't a fun thing to deal with, and because of that knowledge, I'm fighting to keep that upsetting experience from them.



Not everyone is so willing to rush headlong into an army. This comment proves my point about the unfair statement. It is unfair to simply tell a person, "don't like it? Then ******** off and deal with it." when all they're trying to do is have a good time with someone else. The people in my thread were not fighting. They were role playing. They did not make attempts to attack one another, and showed no willingness to do so. When someone can easily avoid the whole confrontation by going around the city and not interrupting anyone's roleplaying activities, I don't see why you think it is right or correct to disregard what the majority wants to do, in favor of a single person's agenda. It doesn't make sense, and is completely unfair.



If that is your stance, then who are you to dictate to other individuals that they cannot have fun simply because one other person wishes to blow the thread they are in to hell and back? In this particular situation, that kind of logic is flawed due to whom the effected party is.



The conflict of interest comes from one person wanting to do one thing, and a group of other people wanting to do another. As you stated earlier, who are you to tell people they can't do this and that when they came here to find fun in the first place? In this particular situation, more than two people are involved in the conflict, and the means to avoid the conflict doesn't really hinder the penultimate goal of the attacking party. As a moderator, one should see that the conflict should be settled in favor of the majority, simply because of the ease to which the problem can be solved without creating a massive hassle for the single attacking party.

Your insults as to my reasons for arguing this topic are irrelevant. As I said, I am not the only person that has voiced displeasure at the thought of dealing with this army. My reason for going to an OOC discussion first was to avoid the complications of trying to deal with this situation IC while opposing it before the IC situation could get out of hand. I wanted to settle the argument OOC before the IC action took place, which would allow for an easier resolution, rather than both sides suddenly deciding to go their separate ways IC, and leave things arguably cleaner.



Quite frankly, if I had had some semblance of warning, and the player of the army in question had bothered to tell me what was going on, I would have been far more open to an attack on my city, or even allowing some sort of RPing situation to arise between the army and my city. Once more, the last time I checked, most fights in here take place after both sides have agreed to fight. And, again, as I said before, I don't think this type of situation should be any different.

I'm getting tired of all this crying. Wah wah, ******** wah. Just deal with it. Lament is a goddamn fortress compared to most of the other locations in the Levi world. It's not like I'm going to send an army of undead to attack anytime soon. Unlike some governments (*coughamericacough*) I don't find conducting multiple wars on different fronts a very strategic move.

I would put my two cents in, but...

Aww, ******** it. Here goes.

Well, I was going to have Evan send in a call to West Fall's president to inform her of what was really going on, then once everything was settled send in a unit to handle the situation as needed. Or at least, that was the plan. But you know what? That's botched now because MerDefsGirl has decided to vanish again. Last time I checked, it wasn't the aim to make people run away from an RP.

Then again, it's your ballgame. I just figure that your ballgame shouldn't go so far as to interfere with mine. After all, you did hire me to rebuild your city- let me try and protect it, please.

All of these "This is a place for fighting" statements still don't take into account one point that Ryugi brought up, and it's the key to the whole argument: mutual consent.

If a player who doesn't want to engage in combat RP (and there are any number of valid reasons why this may be the case at any given time) is challenged to a fight, they're allowed to decline. If the problem continues, they're allowed to ignore the RP'er altogether. Why is it different with armies? Ryugi doesn't consent to fighting, and whether you agree with that position or not, whether you want to call him names over it or not, that doesn't change the fact that the option does (and should!) exist to him. Character vs. character and army vs. city shouldn't have a different set of standards governing the controlling player's options regarding the situation. In response to him requesting that she go elsewhere, much like a player who's individual character's fighting challenge has been declined, the aggressor should go find someone else who is more open to the challenge.

I'm here now, my time is limited, most of you should understand that. I even left notice for another to control my hard work in case I was unable to fufill the obligations I was taking on here.

I was angry last night, I may have been a bit snide myself. I expected in character opposition, not OOC fighting. I can't seem to understand the point of such a well defended a fortress city in a fighting battle guild that is not allowed to be assailed by any other military force without prior consent.

It's not like my 'fake army' suddenly appeared out of nowhere. I spent time, effort, creativity, and hard work here in this guild to build it and the national support framework from the ground up. Building and mantaining an armed force in proper style requires support structure, populatian, taxation, politics and many other background factors as well. My effort in building it is no less valuable than the creativity, time, effort, Ryugi put into his thread.

In answer to TMK on one point, yes this army is the largest conventional force ever written here. But, it is small as military forces go. If someone chose to RP a Gaian army of the west, as I've been hinting for incharcterly, it would number over a million easily. Considering a population base of the plains, five major cities, etc.

Also, part of the reason I chose Lament is because I respected Ryugi's work on the city, and his writing skills. Though I must admit that respect is now diminsihed, for what it's worth.

I won't bother to continue an assualt that is so upseting to another group of people that it would have to be taken to a dispute thread. If Ryugi or the guild expressly forbids me from attacking Lament in this thread, I will rework whatever I was doing and find a way to change my plot.

All I ask now is that you give me a place to attack. I never intended to attack the Northernlands, that was called in character propagnda.

If Lament is forbiden I have these options besides giving up.

1. Sit the army down on West Fall territory nearest Lament and mantain it.

2. Turn it on Durem, or Western Gaia, which would probably be the worst option OOCly as far as people complaining. Besides, no one would play the Western Forces.

3. Go North to Northernlands and fight Darsh, which I don't want to do because pushing the Goliath's through the mountains is a losing proposition and I never intended that in the first place.

4. Take the army back to West Fall and play house.

Can we work something out?