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 Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:37 pm
Syera Miktayee PeTA fails science and biology on SO many levels, it's even not funny. Every time I think about half the things they claim I want to wring their necks. Things they claim? What do you mean, claim? Show me a lie that Peta has posted on any of their websites. Please.Syera Miktayye Furthermore, if the way animals are killed by meat producers (which I do NOT approve of), I entreat you to think about how insects and other animals such as mice, gophers, snakes, and rats suffer in the fields. These creatures are crushed, mutilated, poisoned and trapped - just so you can eat your veggies. Most people aren't interested in taking videos of bugs writhing after exposure to pesticides. Imagine yourself famished one day, and you suddenly discover a delicious, inviting buffet set out. You dig in - a few minutes later your stomach starts to churn. You collapse to the floor in spasms. It might be ten minutes to half and hour before you actually die. As for this bit, I know exactly what you mean. I am completely against that, too. I used to have a small tomato garden, and snails crawled all over it, and instead of killing them, I would (gently) put them in a container or something and I'd walk to a nearby park to let them go. As for these things, I actually searched my neighborhood for a wasp nest, found one, and got permission from the house owner to bring it to my garden. It was really difficult, and I almost got stung multiple times. I got a big container and stood on a step-stool to reach the nest, and when there weren't many wasps around it and they were mostly in, I shot the thing up and slowly moved the lid onto it. I ran back to my tomato garden, turned the container upside-down, moved the lid out of under it, and ran inside. I had attached a string to the container earlier, so to release the wasps, I had to pull the string through a tiny crack in my window. The whole ordeal was really crazy, and I would've taken pictures if I'd've thought of it at the time. I witnessed an attack on a caterpillar almost immidietly, but I didn't stay to see more. Luckily, a new wasp nest formed near the tomato patch shortly after, whether it was those wasps or different ones I don't know. So no more crazy wasp hunts for me. wink
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Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:38 am
Quote: Things they claim? What do you mean, claim? Show me a lie that Peta has posted on any of their websites. Please. With pleasure! The first example that comes to mind is GoVeg's page explaining why eating meat isn't natural and that it was only a "late addition" to the human diet. The truth of the matter is, if you go back far enough to find a "vegetarian" ancestor, you are no longer dealing with humans but are looking at a non-human primate. Meat and cooking has been part of the human lifestyle since before we could even be classed as Homo sapiens. That's more than enough time for our bodies to adapt. Secondly, they cite "facts" proving that we are herbivores, but ignore the ones proving that we are omnivores - for example, the presence of heme receptors. These are special receptors for absorbing iron from animal sources. We're actually better at absorbing iron from meat than veggies. A very odd feature for a true herbivore, wouldn't you say? They claim that our digestive system is like that of a pure herbivore. This is just laughable. Every true herbivore I've seen has a very complex digestive system with multiple-chambered stomachs or eats its own poop in order to get all the nutrients from it. True herbivores can digest cellulose - we can't. There are just as many differences (maybe even more) between us and "true herbivores" as there are between us and "true carnivores." The second example is when they claim that Jesus was vegetarian and all references to eating meat were "metaphorical." (I think the website is Jesus Was Veg.) If you've read the verses they cite in context, it's quite clear that there was no "metaphor" about it. Plus, why would a vegetarian religion use meaty metaphors when the ideas could have been expressed in vegetarian terms just as easily? Okay, that done, I'll run through this page.Quote: According to biologists and anthropologists who study our anatomy and our evolutionary history, humans are herbivores who are not well suited to eating meat. Which biologists? There are MANY biologists out there who would disagree, and for good reason. The biologists I've seen proclaiming humans to be "herbivores who are not well suited for eating meat" are usually vegan activists with an axe to grind. Quote: Unlike natural carnivores, we are physically and psychologically unable to rip animals limb from limb and eat and digest their raw flesh. Even cooked meat is likely to cause human beings, but not natural carnivores, to suffer from food poisoning, heart disease, and other ailments. Lies! We are fully capable of eating raw meat, and we are fully capable of taking it down with the most primitive of tools. (To claim that tools are unnatural is absurd - like proclaiming that the otter's use of a rock to eat clams is unnatural.) The problem is not with raw meat in and of itself. Raw meat, when fresh, is generally harmless. It's the modern processing practices that are causing problems. Furthermore, we have been using fire to cook so long that cooking itself IS natural. Quote: People who pride themselves on being part of the human hunter tradition should take a second look at the story of human evolution. Prehistoric evidence indicates that humans developed hunting skills relatively recently and that most of our short, meat-eating past was spent scavenging and eating almost anything in order to survive; even then, meat was a tiny part of our caloric intake. Wrong again! Our hunting skills predate our status as Homo sapiens. And yes, while early man was prone to scavenging, animal foods were far more significant than claimed. Quote: Humans lack both the physical characteristics of carnivores and the instinct that drives them to kill animals and devour their raw carcasses. Ask yourself: When you see dead animals on the side of the road, are you tempted to stop for a snack? Does the sight of a dead bird make you salivate? Do you daydream about killing cows with your bare hands and eating them raw? If you answered "no" to all of these questions, congratulations—you're a normal human herbivore—like it or not. Humans were simply not designed to eat meat. This is absolutely absurd and non-sequitur. Let me phrase this question another way: When you find moldy vegetables in your fridge, are you tempted to stop for a snack? Does the sight of a rotting squash make you salivate? Do you dream about ripping apart watermelons with your bare hands? If you answered "no" to all these questions, congratulations - you're a normal human omnivore. Humans, like MANY animals, don't care for rotting food. And daydreaming about ripping animals apart with our bare hands? We might, if that's what we were accustomed to doing. Quote: Although many modern humans eat a wide variety of plant and animal foods, earning us the honorary title of "omnivore," we are anatomically herbivorous. Biologists have established that animals who share physical characteristics also share a common diet. Comparing the anatomy of carnivores with our own clearly illustrates that we were not designed to eat meat. Anatomically herbivorous? So we have those complex stomachs after all? Or how about those enlarged incisors? Or appendixes that help us digest particularly tough plant matter? Or the inclination to eat our own poop? Quote: To contrast human physiology with that of carnivores, start at the beginning of the digestive tract. Teeth, nails, and jaw structure indicate that nature intended for people to eat a plant-based diet. They have much shorter and softer fingernails than animals and pathetically small "canine" teeth (they're canine in name only). In contrast, carnivores all have sharp claws and large canine teeth capable of tearing flesh. Never mind the fact that I have hands capable of wielding simple spears and throwing rocks, making it unnecessary for my body to waste energy on claws. When a feature becomes useless or redundant, it tends to become less pronounced, and will eventually disappear. That's an evolutionary fact. Our jaw structure indicates that nature intended us to eat a plant-based diet? So we have tough jaws that can break through nuts and chew dry seeds for protein? Or that can chew up the wild versions of our domesticated crops, which have a texture like wood? Quote: The jaws of carnivores move only up and down, requiring them to tear chunks of flesh from their prey and swallow it whole. Humans and other herbivores can move their jaws up and down and from side to side, a movement that allows them to grind up fruit and vegetables with their back teeth. Like other herbivores, human back molars are flat and allow the grinding of fibrous plant foods. Carnivores lack these flat molars. If humans had been meant to eat meat, they would have the sharp teeth and claws of carnivores. Instead, their jaw structure, flat molars, and lack of claws indicate that they are best suited for a plant-based diet. Actually, our teeth show a structure suited for both plant foods and meat. I don't know about you, but I've never had much trouble chewing through raw meat. It was sure easier than chewing through dry beans or trying to eat a woody root. Quote: Dr. Richard Leakey, a renowned anthropologist, summarizes, "You can't tear flesh by hand, you can't tear hide by hand. Our anterior teeth are not suited for tearing flesh or hide. We don't have large canine teeth, and we wouldn't have been able to deal with food sources that require those large canines. If you have the ability to throw rocks and jab spears, you don't need large canines. Can't rip apart flesh and hide by hand? STICKS AND STONES, love! Quote: After using their sharp claws and teeth to capture and kill their prey, carnivores swallow their food whole, relying on their extremely acidic stomach juices to do most of the digestive work. The stomach acid of carnivores actually plays a dual role-besides breaking down flesh, the acid also kills the dangerous bacteria that would otherwise sicken or kill the meat-eater. As illustrated in the chart below, our stomach acids are much weaker in comparison because strong acids aren't needed to digest pre-chewed fruits and vegetables. In comparing the stomach acidity of carnivores and herbivores, it is obvious that humans fall into the latter category. We can cook meat to kill some of the bacteria and make it easier to chew, but it's clear that humans, unlike all natural carnivores, are not designed to easily digest meat. Raw meat, when fresh, is safe. Our stomach acid is weaker than that of a true carnivore, but we can still deal with raw meat easily. Again, we cannot digest cellulose, unlike a TRUE herbivore. That should give you pause for thought. Quote: Evidence of our herbivorous nature is also found in the length of our intestines. Carnivores have short intestinal tracts and colons that allow meat to pass through it relatively quickly, before it has a chance to rot and cause illness. Humans, on the other hand, have intestinal tracts that are much longer than carnivores of comparable size. Like other herbivores, longer intestines allow the body more time to break down fiber and absorb the nutrients from a plant-based diet. Yes, our intestines are longer than a carnivore's, but they're also a heck of a lot shorter (and less complex!) than an herbivore's. More on this here.Quote: The long human intestinal tract actually makes it dangerous for people to eat meat. The bacteria in meat have extra time to multiply during the long trip through the digestive system, and meat actually begins to rot while it makes its way through the intestines. Many studies have also shown that meat can cause colon cancer in humans No, it doesn't. Meat digests like anything else in the stomach. (Raw meat actually digests faster!) And no, meat doesn't cause colon cancer. This is an old theory, albeit a tenacious one, that has been disproven several times over. There have been many instances where a group of people is almost carnivorous, and in every case cancer was virtually unheard of. Quote: Comparing our anatomies clearly illustrates the fact that the human body is built to run on a vegetarian diet. Humans have absolutely none of the distinguishing anatomical characteristics that either carnivores or even natural omnivores have. Read author John Robbins' discussion of the anatomical differences between humans and carnivores. For every "distinguishing carnivore characteristic" we're missing, we're easily missing a distinguishing herbivore characteristic. So where does that leave us...? Quote: While carnivores take pleasure in killing animals and eating their raw flesh, any human who killed an animal with his or her bare hands and dug into the raw corpse would be considered deranged. Carnivorous animals are aroused by the scent of blood and the thrill of the chase. Most humans, on the other hand, are revolted by the sight of raw flesh and cannot tolerate hearing the screams of animals being ripped apart and killed. The bloody reality of eating animals is innately repulsive to us, more proof that we were not designed to eat meat. This is absurd! Our tendency to find raw meat revolting comes from conditioning, not instinct. It doesn't prove anything one way or the other. I could just as easily say it's not natural to eat plants because a human who ate nothing but grass and weed roots would be considered deranged. And I do find raw meat appetizing, thank you very much! Quote: Ask yourself: When you see dead animals on the side of the road, are you tempted to stop for a snack? Does the sight of a dead bird make you salivate? Do you daydream about killing cows with your bare hands and eating them raw? If you answered "no" to all of these questions, congratulations—you're a normal human herbivore—like it or not. Humans were simply not designed to eat meat. Humans lack both the physical characteristics of carnivores and the instinct that drives them to kill animals and devour their raw carcasses. This is still irrelevant. Quote: In addition to being anatomically ill equipped to digest meat in the short-term, the long-term damage that a meat-based diet wreaks on the human body confirms that we were not meant to eat flesh. Natural carnivores never suffer from heart disease, cancer, diabetes, strokes, or obesity, ailments that are caused in humans by the consumption of the saturated fat and cholesterol in meat. All right, this is an honest mistake made by a lot of people - I won't get onto it too hard. But the truth is, groups of people eating almost nothing but meat were healthy as can be. The diseases you cite are virtually nonexistant. Secondly, there is another factor that has been shown to be part and parcel to our nasty Western diet: highly processed carbohydrates. Every time these have been introduced, the forementioned health problems skyrocket. Do the math! Meat + No refined carbs = healthy. Meat + Refined carbs = unhealthy. No meat + Refined carbs = unhealthy. Quote: Studies have shown that even when fed 200 times the amount of animal fat and cholesterol that the average human consumes each day, carnivores do not develop the hardening of the arteries that leads to heart disease and strokes in humans.4 Indeed, researchers have found that it is impossible for carnivores to develop hardening of the arteries, no matter how much animal fat they consume.5 Animal fat doesn't harden human arteries, either. This belief is now slowly going the way of the dodo. If you actually don't eat cholesterol, your body will make more cholesterol than you could ever get from eating fat. The tests that showed that animal fat hardened arteries were performed on rabbits. We are not rabbits - not even close! Quote: Carnivores are capable of metabolizing all the fat and cholesterol in meat, but humans are a different story: Our bodies were not designed to process animal flesh, so all the excess fat and cholesterol from a meat-based diet makes us sick. Heart disease, for example, is the number one cause of death in America according to the American Heart Association, and medical experts agree that this ailment is the result of the consumption of animal products.6 In fact, meat-eaters have a 50 percent higher risk of developing heart disease than vegetarians, and a low-fat, completely vegetarian diet has been repeatedly used to unclog the arteries of heart disease patients—it not only prevents but also treats the disease!7 Learn more about animal products and heart disease. An honest mistake. However, this belief is disappearing as new information comes out. They also make the mistake of equating all meat eating diets with the unhealthy Standard Western Diet. Your average meat-eating American is more likely to engage in an entire slew of unhealthy practice than your health-conscious vegetarian. Quote: In addition to pointing out the damage done by saturated fat and cholesterol, scientists have also shown that eating animal protein can be harmful to human health. We consume twice as much protein as we need when we eat a meat-based diet, and this leads to osteoporosis and kidney stones.8 Animal protein raises the acid level in human blood, causing calcium to be excreted from the bones to restore the blood's natural pH balance. This calcium depletion leads to osteoporosis, and the excreted calcium ends up in the kidneys, where it can form kidney stones. The strain of processing all the excess animal protein from meat can also trigger kidney disease in meat-eaters. Although low-protein diets were prescribed to kidney patients, it was never suggested that protein causes kidney problems. This was inferred by other people. This is as absurd as assuming eating wheat causes gluten intolerance because gluten-free diets are prescribed to those with gluten intolerance. Quote: The consumption of animal protein has also been linked to cancer of the colon, breast, prostate, and pancreas. In fact, according to Dr. T. Colin Campbell, the director of the Cornell-China-Oxford Project on Nutrition, Health, and the Environment, "In the next ten years, one of the things you're bound to hear is that animal protein … is one of the most toxic nutrients of all that can be considered." Yet many other studies you handily ignore completely pwn this position. Quote: During most of our evolutionary history, we were largely vegetarian.12 You could probably figure this out by noting that all the great apes, our closest living relatives, are also predominantly herbivorous. Like apes, our bodies evolved to eat fruits, nuts, and vegetables.13 "Like" apes? We ARE apes. Incidentally, there is no true vegetarian ape species out there. Although other apes may eat less meat than we do, this is not an indication of what we should eat, any more than the diet of a fruit bad should indicate what a vampire bat should eat. Quote: Harvard anthropologist Richard Wrangham and his colleagues first explained that root vegetables—and the ability to cook them—prompted the evolution of large brains, smaller teeth, modern limb proportions, and even male-female bonding.14 Plant foods like potatoes made up the bulk of our ancestors' diet and spurred our advancement as a species. Potatoes are a new world plant food. Humans evolved in Africa, not South America! Furthermore, tubers that would have been available would have been tiny and very tough to chew compared to our modern cultivars. Also, I'd like to point out that our wimpy human nails couldn't have dug them out of the ground, like TRUE tuber-eaters who have huge claws for digging. Whoops. Even to be an herbivore, we have to rely on those damned unnatural tools. Quote: Anthropologists believe that early humans started to consume small amounts of meat when climate changes made plant foods scarce. During this period, starting a little over a million years ago, humans began to hunt animals for sustenance in the ever-changing landscapes they encountered during their migrations.15 That's more than enough time to adapt. Your point? Quote: Fully modern human beings (Homo sapiens) evolved about 150,000 years ago in Africa and soon spread across the globe.16 With the advent of agriculture, about 23,000 years ago, humans began to gather seeds and cultivate crops to provide a more consistent food supply.17 Our ancestors occasionally killed animals for their flesh, but they still received most of their nutrition from plant sources. Until recently, only the wealthiest people could afford to feed, raise, and slaughter animals for their flesh. Consequently, prior to the 20th century, only the rich died from diseases like heart disease, obesity, and strokes. Degenerative diseases and other health problems actually went UP wherever agriculture took hold. Prior to the 20th century, only the rich could afford to eat sweets and pastries on a regular basis. Take that into account. Here is one site you might check out. It's written by a woman who actually has personal experience with livestock production. Also, I recommend visiting http://www.beyondvegetarian.com for more information. They're pro-vegetarian, but they're also pro-honesty, and don't believe that their search for better health should be weighted down by dishonest dogma. The bottom line is, I don't care if you're veg*n. If you bring me veg*n food, I'll try it. If you come over for dinner, I'll make you some delicious veg*n food. I just wish more people would realize that the veg*n vs. non-veg*n issue isn't as black and white as groups like PeTA would like you to think it is.
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Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:01 am
I am really astonished that you have SO much free time on your hands to be writing all that. What do you think it'll do? Make me start eating meat? Because no, it actually made me just think, "Wow, this girl is not very smart." You just attacked the same things over and over again. Most of those quotes had the same information, like these: Quote: Unlike natural carnivores, we are physically and psychologically unable to rip animals limb from limb and eat and digest their raw flesh. Even cooked meat is likely to cause human beings, but not natural carnivores, to suffer from food poisoning, heart disease, and other ailments. Quote: Humans lack both the physical characteristics of carnivores and the instinct that drives them to kill animals and devour their raw carcasses. Ask yourself: When you see dead animals on the side of the road, are you tempted to stop for a snack? Does the sight of a dead bird make you salivate? Do you daydream about killing cows with your bare hands and eating them raw? If you answered "no" to all of these questions, congratulations—you're a normal human herbivore—like it or not. Humans were simply not designed to eat meat. Quote: While carnivores take pleasure in killing animals and eating their raw flesh, any human who killed an animal with his or her bare hands and dug into the raw corpse would be considered deranged. Carnivorous animals are aroused by the scent of blood and the thrill of the chase. Most humans, on the other hand, are revolted by the sight of raw flesh and cannot tolerate hearing the screams of animals being ripped apart and killed. The bloody reality of eating animals is innately repulsive to us, more proof that we were not designed to eat meat. Most of the rest of them pointed out all the reasons humans aren't designed to eat meat. How can you ignore all of that? You basically just kept repeating, "I like meat, so that's a lie". You also said that humans can use primitive tools to hunt. I dare you to go out into a forest with nothing but a rock and try and hunt something. If humans are supposed to do that, it should come naturally. Why are you so determined to eat meat?! If you don't believe humans shouldn't, then at least stop eating it to help the planet! Factory farms emit tons apon tons of CO2 into the atmosphere every year, along with cutting down entire forests and polluting water everywhere. Don't even pretend that it isn't true. Oh, and I also love that you completely ignored that I agreed with you for the other thing you said and chose to instead give me crap for beliving a website that has proven facts and supported arguements all over it. stare
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Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:38 am
KnittingKnerd Most of the rest of them pointed out all the reasons humans aren't designed to eat meat. How can you ignore all of that? You basically just kept repeating, "I like meat, so that's a lie". How can I ignore ALL of that? Because I've done my homework, that's why. Unlike a lot of people, I try not to make a habit out of listening to only one side of the story. I've read the stories of ex-vegans who couldn't make it work no matter how they tried, and I've read the stories of prior meat-eaters who found their panacea on a vegan diet. I accept that both are valid paths to human health, depending on the individual human. Here are some of my sources - read them, or put your fingers in your ears and hum loudly. Your choice. http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/index.html http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/03/04/the-healthiest-carnivores-around/ http://www.beyondveg.com/ Quote: You also said that humans can use primitive tools to hunt. I dare you to go out into a forest with nothing but a rock and try and hunt something. If humans are supposed to do that, it should come naturally. Ridiculous. Humans are pack animals, not solitary hunters. Several humans, several rocks, several spears (or bows and arrows, another primitive hunting tool of ours) = mighty effective hunters. Learn about the bushmen sometime. Quote: Why are you so determined to eat meat?! If you don't believe humans shouldn't, then at least stop eating it to help the planet! Factory farms emit tons apon tons of CO2 into the atmosphere every year, along with cutting down entire forests and polluting water everywhere. Don't even pretend that it isn't true. I never pretended any such thing. I am aware that factory farms are harmful, and as I said earlier I do not agree with them. There are, however, alternatives to factory farming that are beneficial to the environment. Like I said, the issue isn't as black-and-white as PeTA would have you think. Just today, I was doing some research when I found this.Quote: Oh, and I also love that you completely ignored that I agreed with you for the other thing you said and chose to instead give me crap for beliving a website that has proven facts and supported arguements all over it. stare Um... okay... yes, I read what you said. And I had nothing further to say on the subject. Personally, I also leave the waspies alone when they make a nest outside. However, I haven't exactly had that luxury with the hundreds of other bugs I had to kill to keep them off my plants. (And I'm sure knowing that they died for a good cause, IE, to save poor old Bessie, makes it all worth it to the little buggies.)
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Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:41 pm
Quote: I've read the stories of ex-vegans who couldn't make it work no matter how they tried Hm. That's funny, I don't ever remember meat being a neccesary part of the human diet. Those stories are probably written by the kinds of people who tell me, "I tried being a vegetarian, but meat is just sooo good!" when I never even tried to make them a veg*n, they just wanted to tell me that. Quote: Ridiculous. Humans are pack animals, not solitary hunters. That's also funny, because wolves are also pack hunters, yet a solitary wolf can hunt by itself, too. And I really do not think a bow and arrow is a "primitive" tool. A sharpened rock is, a spear may be considered one, a bow and arrow is definetely not. Quote: There are, however, alternatives to factory farming that are beneficial to the environment. I know that. But almost all meat available in grocery stores, and even health food stores, come from factory farms. If I'd grown up on a farm, I probably would've eaten meat, because on normal farms the meat is clean, leaves the atmosphere clean, the animals lead good lives, and were killed in a fairly humane way. But factory farms are possibley the worst thing that could have happened for this planet. They're bad for the animals, bad for the people who eat the animals, and bad for the planet the animals and people are on. And, that's just super-DUPER that after complaining about the way bugs are treated like nonliving things you say that you killing them is justified because you killed them for a "good cause".
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Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:50 pm
I appreciate all the points being made, but we don't have to fight and argue in this thread. We don't need any stare faces, exclamation points, or sarcasm, please.
I like the discussion, but I think that I and others in this guild would appreciate it if we kept it a little more mellow in here. Thanks guys. heart
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Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:25 am
Quote: Hm. That's funny, I don't ever remember meat being a neccesary part of the human diet. Those stories are probably written by the kinds of people who tell me, "I tried being a vegetarian, but meat is just sooo good!" when I never even tried to make them a veg*n, they just wanted to tell me that. The ones I read were written by people who believed with all their hearts that meat is murder and tried every trick in the book to live a "cruelty-free" lifestyle. In the end, it was their health VS. veg*n dogma. Every time I read a "failure" story where it was a case of "I couldn't stick to the diet because I just couldn't give up my (insert forbidden food here)!" I roll my eyes. wink Quote: And, that's just super-DUPER that after complaining about the way bugs are treated like nonliving things you say that you killing them is justified because you killed them for a "good cause". *coughSarcasmcough*
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Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 1:36 pm
Ugh, she said that AFTER I posted. And, you don't seem to be caring that you kill those bugs, at all. Even after going in to detail about skin being melted off of you and whatnot. You aren't a very pleasant person. WHICH IS WHY I AM PUTTING YOU ON IGNORE NOW.
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Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:32 pm
Um. Vegan, but I'm not a proselytizing vegan.
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Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:00 pm
I'm a meatatarian!
I eat meat as often as possible. I have a slender muscular build at 6 feet 175 lbs and enjoy all the verying flavors that you can get from meats.
Humans have been eating meat for millennia and it has not caused us to be an ill adapted or malnourished species. I respect people who choose not to eat meat, as well as people that choose not to eat any animal product, as an American.
methane and CO2 from agriculture is systematic, the animals breath in air and breath out CO2 and well, yall know where the methane comes from. then plants of various creeds convert it back into oxygen through photosynthesis.
The primary overlay producer of CO2 is industry, primarily oil refining and coal electrical generation.
so please leave me my 2/3 ponders cooked in peanut oil with a side of fries, because they just taste so good. (these burgers can be found at Five Guys Burgers, or Fudruckers)
Yummeh
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Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:39 pm
I eat meat because I feel very strongly that improving the conditions in which farm animals are raised, live, and die is very important. Becoming a vegetarian would rob me of my most valuable vote- the dollar. By spending money on animal products which are certified humanely raised and processed, I do something concrete and effective to support this change in modern animal husbandry. If I were to become a vegetarian, the companies involved wouldn't have any reason to care about my opinions on how their animals should be treated; they have always, and will always cater to their customers. And if everyone who cared about animal welfare were to become vegetarian, then the fight for better treatment of animals would become meaningless because there would be noone left who would be willing to spend the extra dollar needed to fund the transition. It costs more to do things right, and especially when the end product is not certain to be bought. Ranches and farms will never expend the effort and money needed to improve their stock's condition if there isn't a market for doing that- even if they wanted to, they couldn't afford it. Therefore, actually buying that product is a thousand times more effective than any letter writing campaign, and letter writing campaigns are worthless if nobody's buying. And if you're a vegetarian, you are by definition not buying.
I noticed the discussion further up the page about the nature of the natural human diet. It's been my understanding, through some interests I've pursued in the study of early civilizations and the development of the human species in general, that most biologists agree that the protein and nourishment from meat was one of the catalysts for spurring our development from primates into the species that we are today. Certainly, humans have been eating meat for as long as they've been human.
Also, when you look at our digestive system, there really isn't anything about it which says "herbivore," except for our rear-most teeth. We don't have a particularly efficient system for digesting plant protein- only one stomach, and relatively very little fermentation process. That's why when people are weak and recovering from illness, the best thing to give them is meat broth. Fresh veggies should be introduced toward the end of their initial recovery phase, because they are difficult for us to digest.
Some vegetarians I know become convinced of the unnaturalness of a meat diet because when they have been vegetarian for a while, and then try to eat something with meat in it, it makes them ill. This is because of the natural balance of gut flora in our intestinal systems. We have several symbiotic relationships with bacteria in our digestive tract- which is one reason why when someone goes on heavy antibiotics, it's good for them to also take some pro-biotics to keep the good bacteria stable. When a person goes on a vegetarian/vegan diet, they gradually starve off a portion of those natural symbiotes. I.e., they kill off a part of their digestive tract. So if they were ever to return to an omnivorous diet, they would need to be treated gently until their system restores itself- only a tablespoon of meat broth a day until their gut flora are replenished. It is not that meat is unnatural- on the contrary, it is because a vegetarian diet is so unnatural that it kills off part of the normal system.
*shrugs* But I don't say this to try to convince anyone to change what they're doing, I know that people will do what they think is right. I'm just saying this for the sake of accurate information and understanding.
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Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:26 pm
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Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:10 pm
I'm saying that they care about making money, which is pretty standard for any business. Remember, they're not doing this just for the thrills of packaging meat- it's a job, an income. They need to sell stuff in order to continue their business, pay their employees, and support their families. If humanely raised and processed meat doesn't sell, then even those with the best of intentions would be unable to shift their practices, or stay in business after they did. We have to make altering ranch and plant practices financially feasible, without that then no amount of animal rights activism would amount to anything, and no amount of community education would amount to anything. The only way to make these practices viable for the ranches and plants is to support those who have made the leap by buying from them. And if you stop buying meat and animal products altogether, then you can't do that. That's the bottom line.
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Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:56 pm
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Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:29 am
OMG i started this thread wayyy back. And when i wrote it i meant i was trying to be a vegetarian, not that i was one. But my parents (and grandparents) won't let me, i got yelled at by my parents when i told them i wanted to become a vegetarian. They have meat everyday waiting for me at home. I DON'T eat pork or sea food AT ALL and i eat beef sometimes like in hamburgers and stuff( The vegan burgers are good btw). But when i go to the store, i always get a big bag of romane lettuce and bunches of vegetable! I <3 vegetables x3 If all the meat in the world disappeared, i wouldnt mind!
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