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 Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:34 am
xLady Tsukiyox chessiejo i hope my leaders have some deeply felt and thought-through values, that they are aware of those values, and base their actions upon them. i would hate to be led by people who had no values. so then the secular humanists would demand that only rationalist materialist values be used, and throw out all others? that seems discriminatory. Just because someone is a secular humanist doesn't mean they don't have values. Morals do not always come from a divine source. Nor do they have to. i did not mean to imply that secular humanists had no values! all i intended to say was that they seem to have this tendency to tell the rest of us that theirs are the only ones which count, which is unfair.
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Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:32 am
chessiejo xLady Tsukiyox chessiejo i hope my leaders have some deeply felt and thought-through values, that they are aware of those values, and base their actions upon them. i would hate to be led by people who had no values. so then the secular humanists would demand that only rationalist materialist values be used, and throw out all others? that seems discriminatory. Just because someone is a secular humanist doesn't mean they don't have values. Morals do not always come from a divine source. Nor do they have to. i did not mean to imply that secular humanists had no values! all i intended to say was that they seem to have this tendency to tell the rest of us that theirs are the only ones which count, which is unfair. Do you have proof of this? Because chances are you're thinking of angstheists. Because I know Christians and other theists who would put themselves first versus anyone else.
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Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:36 am
xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx values get forced upon you all the time. You have to obey the laws of your country, don't you? And didn't your parents teach you right and wrong, even if you didn't like it at the time? Unless you wanna become a hermit, you have to deal with having at least some values forced upon you. Except laws and values are two separate things. Values are subjective. Laws are objective. But one could argue that laws are based off values. And there's still the matter of your parents teaching you their values. You can't really escape it. Still. Values are subjective and they differ for everyone and their different in every culture and religion. My point is more that you can't escape values being forced on you, not (at least for this point) that one set is better then another. Well, did you consider yourself a good person beforehand? Do you recognize you need Jesus to save you? Are you fully devoted to Him, doing everything you can to please Him? Actually I was a good person beforehand. I learned my morals, from the little sayings they had painted on the walls of my elementary school, my grandmother, and my dad. I helped my fellow students out by either helping out those who are mentally disabled with their classwork or donating a pint of my blood. I didn't recognize that Jesus needed to save me because I already was saved and always have been. I do not devote myself to Jesus because to me he is not God. He is not YHVH. He may be the savior and he may be the Son of God, but he is not someone I do not bow down to. I do not bow to God either, but I stand firm in my beliefs. I stand strong.
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Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:03 pm
xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx values get forced upon you all the time. You have to obey the laws of your country, don't you? And didn't your parents teach you right and wrong, even if you didn't like it at the time? Unless you wanna become a hermit, you have to deal with having at least some values forced upon you. Except laws and values are two separate things. Values are subjective. Laws are objective. But one could argue that laws are based off values. And there's still the matter of your parents teaching you their values. You can't really escape it. Still. Values are subjective and they differ for everyone and their different in every culture and religion. My point is more that you can't escape values being forced on you, not (at least for this point) that one set is better then another. Well, did you consider yourself a good person beforehand? Do you recognize you need Jesus to save you? Are you fully devoted to Him, doing everything you can to please Him? Actually I was a good person beforehand. I learned my morals, from the little sayings they had painted on the walls of my elementary school, my grandmother, and my dad. I helped my fellow students out by either helping out those who are mentally disabled with their classwork or donating a pint of my blood. I didn't recognize that Jesus needed to save me because I already was saved and always have been. I do not devote myself to Jesus because to me he is not God. He is not YHVH. He may be the savior and he may be the Son of God, but he is not someone I do not bow down to. I do not bow to God either, but I stand firm in my beliefs. I stand strong. What religion are you?
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Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:22 pm
xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx But one could argue that laws are based off values. And there's still the matter of your parents teaching you their values. You can't really escape it. Still. Values are subjective and they differ for everyone and their different in every culture and religion. My point is more that you can't escape values being forced on you, not (at least for this point) that one set is better then another. Well, did you consider yourself a good person beforehand? Do you recognize you need Jesus to save you? Are you fully devoted to Him, doing everything you can to please Him? Actually I was a good person beforehand. I learned my morals, from the little sayings they had painted on the walls of my elementary school, my grandmother, and my dad. I helped my fellow students out by either helping out those who are mentally disabled with their classwork or donating a pint of my blood. I didn't recognize that Jesus needed to save me because I already was saved and always have been. I do not devote myself to Jesus because to me he is not God. He is not YHVH. He may be the savior and he may be the Son of God, but he is not someone I do not bow down to. I do not bow to God either, but I stand firm in my beliefs. I stand strong. What religion are you? Obviously I'm Christian. neutral There are a lot of Christians who refer to God as YHVH or Yahweh.
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Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:31 pm
brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx values get forced upon you all the time. You have to obey the laws of your country, don't you? And didn't your parents teach you right and wrong, even if you didn't like it at the time? Unless you wanna become a hermit, you have to deal with having at least some values forced upon you. Except laws and values are two separate things. Values are subjective. Laws are objective. But one could argue that laws are based off values. And there's still the matter of your parents teaching you their values. You can't really escape it. Still. Values are subjective and they differ for everyone and their different in every culture and religion. My point is more that you can't escape values being forced on you, not (at least for this point) that one set is better then another. Well, did you consider yourself a good person beforehand? Do you recognize you need Jesus to save you? Are you fully devoted to Him, doing everything you can to please Him?
Sometimes it is unavoidable, but there are problems (in America at least) that are heavily based in Christian beliefs, such as keeping bans on same sex marriage and debating whether intelligent design should be taught with evolution, that should be kept as objective as possible.
And since I abandoned my religion I've put more thought towards morals and ethics because I've had to decide for myself what's right and what's wrong.
I can honestly say that I'm a better person without religion because I have to take responsibility for my own thoughts and actions.
Not to say that people who do get their values from religion are any less moral, but a person doesn't need religion to do good.Unless it's the parents doing the forcing and you're under a certain age, and said values aren't hurting anyone. And I happen to believe same-sex marriage should be banned (marriage is usuallly a religious thing. I suppose getting married by someone other then a priest or a rabbi would be different, but they definetely should not be married in the church). I also think if there's any homosexuals who don't want to be homosexual, they should be given a way turn around (by choice). I also think my God can change any Christian who's homosexual heterosexual, and that anyone who's a Christian should seek that change. I also believe in Creationism, and think it's brain washing to only teach one angle and I think calling a baby is a fetus is a great way to use science terms to make it okay to kill 'fetuses'. It's like if you said someone had to be 'put down'. And I can see you're point, but that's why there aren't really second generation Christians. You can be raised in the church, but most of the kids come to a point where they really start to think about it. And I honestly think that being a Christian does make you a better person because not only are you trying to change, but you have a higher power helping you. You can still go back and repent if you do sin, but if you love Him, you'll do everything you can to avoid sinning. It's about more then being a 'good person'. Christianity says if you've done one thing wrong, you're evil. Christianity's about turning away from that, and trying to become like Jesus (perfect). It may not happen until Heaven, but that's what's being reached for. If everyone tried to be perfect (and didn't focus on anyone else's errors) and also put everyone else before themselves, I think we might have a utopia.
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Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:41 pm
xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx But one could argue that laws are based off values. And there's still the matter of your parents teaching you their values. You can't really escape it. Still. Values are subjective and they differ for everyone and their different in every culture and religion. My point is more that you can't escape values being forced on you, not (at least for this point) that one set is better then another. Well, did you consider yourself a good person beforehand? Do you recognize you need Jesus to save you? Are you fully devoted to Him, doing everything you can to please Him? Actually I was a good person beforehand. I learned my morals, from the little sayings they had painted on the walls of my elementary school, my grandmother, and my dad. I helped my fellow students out by either helping out those who are mentally disabled with their classwork or donating a pint of my blood. I didn't recognize that Jesus needed to save me because I already was saved and always have been. I do not devote myself to Jesus because to me he is not God. He is not YHVH. He may be the savior and he may be the Son of God, but he is not someone I do not bow down to. I do not bow to God either, but I stand firm in my beliefs. I stand strong. What religion are you? Obviously I'm Christian. neutral There are a lot of Christians who refer to God as YHVH or Yahweh. You aren't, I'm gonna have to tell you. Most Christians would tell you that, by what you said, including my brother (who's in his last year of Bible college), my mom (who's been a Christian for 30 years), my pastors, and just about all the Christians I know. Christians believe they need Jesus to save them because they've sinned. It's a major point to the religion (way more important then homosexuality, creationism, and all that that). You may believe in points of the Bible, but a huge thing is realizing you need Christ and accepting Him as you're Lord and Savior. By what you've said, you haven't done that. neutral
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Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:44 pm
xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx My point is more that you can't escape values being forced on you, not (at least for this point) that one set is better then another. Well, did you consider yourself a good person beforehand? Do you recognize you need Jesus to save you? Are you fully devoted to Him, doing everything you can to please Him? Actually I was a good person beforehand. I learned my morals, from the little sayings they had painted on the walls of my elementary school, my grandmother, and my dad. I helped my fellow students out by either helping out those who are mentally disabled with their classwork or donating a pint of my blood. I didn't recognize that Jesus needed to save me because I already was saved and always have been. I do not devote myself to Jesus because to me he is not God. He is not YHVH. He may be the savior and he may be the Son of God, but he is not someone I do not bow down to. I do not bow to God either, but I stand firm in my beliefs. I stand strong. What religion are you? Obviously I'm Christian. neutral There are a lot of Christians who refer to God as YHVH or Yahweh. You aren't, I'm gonna have to tell you. Most Christians would tell you that, by what you said, including my brother (who's in his last year of Bible college), my mom (who's been a Christian for 30 years), my pastors, and just about all the Christians I know. Christians believe they need Jesus to save them because they've sinned. It's a major point to the religion (way more important then homosexuality, creationism, and all that that). You may believe in points of the Bible, but a huge thing is realizing you need Christ and accepting Him as you're Lord and Savior. By what you've said, you haven't done that. neutral And you totally misread what I said. I did accept Christ as my lord and savior. I still do. However my life didn't make a full 360. It's not going to do a full 360. There is no such thing as instant gratification. And last I checked you're not God. So you the ******** are you to decide who is a ******** Christian and who the ******** isn't? Take the splinter out of your own ******** eye before making a ******** judgment call about someone else.
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Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:05 pm
xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx My point is more that you can't escape values being forced on you, not (at least for this point) that one set is better then another. Well, did you consider yourself a good person beforehand? Do you recognize you need Jesus to save you? Are you fully devoted to Him, doing everything you can to please Him? Actually I was a good person beforehand. I learned my morals, from the little sayings they had painted on the walls of my elementary school, my grandmother, and my dad. I helped my fellow students out by either helping out those who are mentally disabled with their classwork or donating a pint of my blood. I didn't recognize that Jesus needed to save me because I already was saved and always have been. I do not devote myself to Jesus because to me he is not God. He is not YHVH. He may be the savior and he may be the Son of God, but he is not someone I do not bow down to. I do not bow to God either, but I stand firm in my beliefs. I stand strong. What religion are you? Obviously I'm Christian. neutral There are a lot of Christians who refer to God as YHVH or Yahweh. You aren't, I'm gonna have to tell you. Most Christians would tell you that, by what you said, including my brother (who's in his last year of Bible college), my mom (who's been a Christian for 30 years), my pastors, and just about all the Christians I know. Christians believe they need Jesus to save them because they've sinned. It's a major point to the religion (way more important then homosexuality, creationism, and all that that). You may believe in points of the Bible, but a huge thing is realizing you need Christ and accepting Him as you're Lord and Savior. By what you've said, you haven't done that. neutral And you totally misread what I said. I did accept Christ as my lord and savior. I still do. However my life didn't make a full 360. It's not going to do a full 360. There is no such thing as instant gratification. And last I checked you're not God. So you the ******** are you to decide who is a ******** Christian and who the ******** isn't? Take the splinter out of your own ******** eye before making a ******** judgment call about someone else. I never said anything about an instant 360, or being perfect instantly. But a major point is realizing you're a sinner and need Him. You said you were a 'good person' beforehand, but I don't know of any Christians who would say that. I wouldn't say that, and I accepted him the first time I felt guilty (I was around 3). Christians are supposed to strive for perfection and being like Jesus though. This isn't a passive religion or relationship. God is someone you have to seek after. I also don't know of any Christians who wouldn't bow to God or Jesus. That was another indicator. That's part of what the whole praying on your knees with your hands folded thing is about you know. I'm not judging you, I'm just going off what you said and what I know about my own religion. I could send what you said off to my brother (who is gonna be a pastor, so he should know) and see if he agrees. And a lot of Christians would also say if you don't believe Jesus is God, you aren't a Christian, but I'm not gonna go that far.
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Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:35 pm
xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox Obviously I'm Christian. neutral There are a lot of Christians who refer to God as YHVH or Yahweh. You aren't, I'm gonna have to tell you. Most Christians would tell you that, by what you said, including my brother (who's in his last year of Bible college), my mom (who's been a Christian for 30 years), my pastors, and just about all the Christians I know. Christians believe they need Jesus to save them because they've sinned. It's a major point to the religion (way more important then homosexuality, creationism, and all that that). You may believe in points of the Bible, but a huge thing is realizing you need Christ and accepting Him as you're Lord and Savior. By what you've said, you haven't done that. neutral And you totally misread what I said. I did accept Christ as my lord and savior. I still do. However my life didn't make a full 360. It's not going to do a full 360. There is no such thing as instant gratification. And last I checked you're not God. So you the ******** are you to decide who is a ******** Christian and who the ******** isn't? Take the splinter out of your own ******** eye before making a ******** judgment call about someone else. I never said anything about an instant 360, or being perfect instantly. But a major point is realizing you're a sinner and need Him. You said you were a 'good person' beforehand, but I don't know of any Christians who would say that. I wouldn't say that, and I accepted him the first time I felt guilty (I was around 3). Christians are supposed to strive for perfection and being like Jesus though. This isn't a passive religion or relationship. God is someone you have to seek after. I also don't know of any Christians who wouldn't bow to God or Jesus. That was another indicator. That's part of what the whole praying on your knees with your hands folded thing is about you know. I'm not judging you, I'm just going off what you said and what I know about my own religion. I could send what you said off to my brother (who is gonna be a pastor, so he should know) and see if he agrees. And a lot of Christians would also say if you don't believe Jesus is God, you aren't a Christian, but I'm not gonna go that far. That is a clear judgement call. And I could care less what your brother thinks or that he's going to be a pastor. I do not trust so called holy men. I trust in Jesus and God only. However to me, Jesus is my spiritual teacher. He guides me and teaches me. I do not need some mortal to do that. I don't look at sin as some evil thing. I look at sin as the things we need to work on, our shortcomings as humans. They are the things we need to improve on. I have not killed, cheated or stole. I never lied when I was younger. So yes I was a good person. Why? Because I was born like everyone else with a clean slate. When I became Christian, I was but a babe. I did not know what sin was, I was not of the age of accountability. How could I know when I didn't understand the concept of good or bad. I doubt that you had a feeling of guilt when you were three. Chances are your parents caused you to feel guilt instead of calmly teaching you that what you did was wrong. Parents should never guilt trip their kids even at a young age. It's sickening when they do. Except believing that Jesus is God, isn't a teaching for everyone. Not all Christians accept he is God. Some believe that he is simply the Son of God, the Savior and a spiritual teacher. To some going as far as calling him God, would be idolatry. When I pray I never kneel. I either stand or I sit. But I will never kneel. To me, kneeling is a sign of weakness and a sign that you have a weak faith. By standing, it's a sign that I am strong and unwavering. It also shows that I respect God. At the end of the prayer besides saying Amen, I will bow my head out of respect and clap my hands twice to sort of end whatever trance I am in, if I am in one. It's an unconscious thing I do to make sure my mind and my body are both aware of it's surroundings.
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Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:54 pm
xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox Obviously I'm Christian. neutral There are a lot of Christians who refer to God as YHVH or Yahweh. You aren't, I'm gonna have to tell you. Most Christians would tell you that, by what you said, including my brother (who's in his last year of Bible college), my mom (who's been a Christian for 30 years), my pastors, and just about all the Christians I know. Christians believe they need Jesus to save them because they've sinned. It's a major point to the religion (way more important then homosexuality, creationism, and all that that). You may believe in points of the Bible, but a huge thing is realizing you need Christ and accepting Him as you're Lord and Savior. By what you've said, you haven't done that. neutral And you totally misread what I said. I did accept Christ as my lord and savior. I still do. However my life didn't make a full 360. It's not going to do a full 360. There is no such thing as instant gratification. And last I checked you're not God. So you the ******** are you to decide who is a ******** Christian and who the ******** isn't? Take the splinter out of your own ******** eye before making a ******** judgment call about someone else. I never said anything about an instant 360, or being perfect instantly. But a major point is realizing you're a sinner and need Him. You said you were a 'good person' beforehand, but I don't know of any Christians who would say that. I wouldn't say that, and I accepted him the first time I felt guilty (I was around 3). Christians are supposed to strive for perfection and being like Jesus though. This isn't a passive religion or relationship. God is someone you have to seek after. I also don't know of any Christians who wouldn't bow to God or Jesus. That was another indicator. That's part of what the whole praying on your knees with your hands folded thing is about you know. I'm not judging you, I'm just going off what you said and what I know about my own religion. I could send what you said off to my brother (who is gonna be a pastor, so he should know) and see if he agrees. And a lot of Christians would also say if you don't believe Jesus is God, you aren't a Christian, but I'm not gonna go that far. That is a clear judgement call. And I could care less what your brother thinks or that he's going to be a pastor. I do not trust so called holy men. I trust in Jesus and God only. However to me, Jesus is my spiritual teacher. He guides me and teaches me. I do not need some mortal to do that. I don't look at sin as some evil thing. I look at sin as the things we need to work on, our shortcomings as humans. They are the things we need to improve on. I have not killed, cheated or stole. I never lied when I was younger. So yes I was a good person. Why? Because I was born like everyone else with a clean slate. When I became Christian, I was but a babe. I did not know what sin was, I was not of the age of accountability. How could I know when I didn't understand the concept of good or bad. I doubt that you had a feeling of guilt when you were three. Chances are your parents caused you to feel guilt instead of calmly teaching you that what you did was wrong. Parents should never guilt trip their kids even at a young age. It's sickening when they do. Except believing that Jesus is God, isn't a teaching for everyone. Not all Christians accept he is God. Some believe that he is simply the Son of God, the Savior and a spiritual teacher. To some going as far as calling him God, would be idolatry. When I pray I never kneel. I either stand or I sit. But I will never kneel. To me, kneeling is a sign of weakness and a sign that you have a weak faith. By standing, it's a sign that I am strong and unwavering. It also shows that I respect God. At the end of the prayer besides saying Amen, I will bow my head out of respect and clap my hands twice to sort of end whatever trance I am in, if I am in one. It's an unconscious thing I do to make sure my mind and my body are both aware of it's surroundings. Actually it's not, at least, not the way you mean it. I'm not condeming you, I'm just letting you know where you're off. Anyway, if you don't want you're opinions eveluated, you shouldn't post them. And there are some holy men and women who know more then you. It's not wrong to call upon their opinion. You can't become a Christian as a baby. You have to accept Him as Lord and Savior, and the reason for doing that is because we've sinned, so we need Him to redeem us. I did. I distinctly remember the feeling. And my mom didn't 'guilt trip' me. I went to her, and said I didn't feel right. According to her me and my three sibs all did that, and she only told me that after I brought it up with her. And my dad was more likely to do the guilt trip thing, but he wasn't around. What I felt had nothing to do with my parents, and everything to do with the fact I sinned and was seperated from the Lord by that. I believe Jesus is God. But I'm not gonna go into that. Kneeling is a sign of respect. You'd kneel before a king, and Jesus is the King of Kings. If you believe He's Lord, then there's a submissive attitude that goes along with that. And He also values our obedience. While He's supposed to be our friend and teacher He's also supposed to be our sheperd, Lord, and King. He's in charge.
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Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:14 pm
Anyone may call themself a member of any religion. Saying they don't have that right isn't polite. This is a civil debate guild.
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Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:19 pm
xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx neutral You aren't, I'm gonna have to tell you. Most Christians would tell you that, by what you said, including my brother (who's in his last year of Bible college), my mom (who's been a Christian for 30 years), my pastors, and just about all the Christians I know. Christians believe they need Jesus to save them because they've sinned. It's a major point to the religion (way more important then homosexuality, creationism, and all that that). You may believe in points of the Bible, but a huge thing is realizing you need Christ and accepting Him as you're Lord and Savior. By what you've said, you haven't done that. neutral And you totally misread what I said. I did accept Christ as my lord and savior. I still do. However my life didn't make a full 360. It's not going to do a full 360. There is no such thing as instant gratification. And last I checked you're not God. So you the ******** are you to decide who is a ******** Christian and who the ******** isn't? Take the splinter out of your own ******** eye before making a ******** judgment call about someone else. I never said anything about an instant 360, or being perfect instantly. But a major point is realizing you're a sinner and need Him. You said you were a 'good person' beforehand, but I don't know of any Christians who would say that. I wouldn't say that, and I accepted him the first time I felt guilty (I was around 3). Christians are supposed to strive for perfection and being like Jesus though. This isn't a passive religion or relationship. God is someone you have to seek after. I also don't know of any Christians who wouldn't bow to God or Jesus. That was another indicator. That's part of what the whole praying on your knees with your hands folded thing is about you know. I'm not judging you, I'm just going off what you said and what I know about my own religion. I could send what you said off to my brother (who is gonna be a pastor, so he should know) and see if he agrees. And a lot of Christians would also say if you don't believe Jesus is God, you aren't a Christian, but I'm not gonna go that far. That is a clear judgement call. And I could care less what your brother thinks or that he's going to be a pastor. I do not trust so called holy men. I trust in Jesus and God only. However to me, Jesus is my spiritual teacher. He guides me and teaches me. I do not need some mortal to do that. I don't look at sin as some evil thing. I look at sin as the things we need to work on, our shortcomings as humans. They are the things we need to improve on. I have not killed, cheated or stole. I never lied when I was younger. So yes I was a good person. Why? Because I was born like everyone else with a clean slate. When I became Christian, I was but a babe. I did not know what sin was, I was not of the age of accountability. How could I know when I didn't understand the concept of good or bad. I doubt that you had a feeling of guilt when you were three. Chances are your parents caused you to feel guilt instead of calmly teaching you that what you did was wrong. Parents should never guilt trip their kids even at a young age. It's sickening when they do. Except believing that Jesus is God, isn't a teaching for everyone. Not all Christians accept he is God. Some believe that he is simply the Son of God, the Savior and a spiritual teacher. To some going as far as calling him God, would be idolatry. When I pray I never kneel. I either stand or I sit. But I will never kneel. To me, kneeling is a sign of weakness and a sign that you have a weak faith. By standing, it's a sign that I am strong and unwavering. It also shows that I respect God. At the end of the prayer besides saying Amen, I will bow my head out of respect and clap my hands twice to sort of end whatever trance I am in, if I am in one. It's an unconscious thing I do to make sure my mind and my body are both aware of it's surroundings. Actually it's not, at least, not the way you mean it. I'm not condeming you, I'm just letting you know where you're off. Anyway, if you don't want you're opinions eveluated, you shouldn't post them. And there are some holy men and women who know more then you. It's not wrong to call upon their opinion. You can't become a Christian as a baby. You have to accept Him as Lord and Savior, and the reason for doing that is because we've sinned, so we need Him to redeem us. I did. I distinctly remember the feeling. And my mom didn't 'guilt trip' me. I went to her, and said I didn't feel right. According to her me and my three sibs all did that, and she only told me that after I brought it up with her. And my dad was more likely to do the guilt trip thing, but he wasn't around. What I felt had nothing to do with my parents, and everything to do with the fact I sinned and was seperated from the Lord by that. I believe Jesus is God. But I'm not gonna go into that. Kneeling is a sign of respect. You'd kneel before a king, and Jesus is the King of Kings. If you believe He's Lord, then there's a submissive attitude that goes along with that. And He also values our obedience. While He's supposed to be our friend and teacher He's also supposed to be our sheperd, Lord, and King. He's in charge. Actually you bow before a king you don't normally kneel unless you're asking for forgiveness because you screwed up. And yes you can become a Christian as a baby. There's a thing called baptism at birth. Just because you don't accept it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's pretty ignorant and intellectually dishonest to even say that you can't become a Christian as a baby. neutral And again, whether or not someone isn't a Christian, isn't a judgment call for you to make. You are neither God nor are you Jesus. If I were you, I'd bite my tongue and know where my place is, young one.
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Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:20 pm
xxEternallyBluexx Shiori Miko chessiejo i hope my leaders have some deeply felt and thought-through values, that they are aware of those values, and base their actions upon them. i would hate to be led by people who had no values. so then the secular humanists would demand that only rationalist materialist values be used, and throw out all others? that seems discriminatory. 'Cause I would so love for someone else's values to be forced on me, despite what religion/non-religion they have. rolleyes values get forced upon you all the time. You have to obey the laws of your country, don't you? And didn't your parents teach you right and wrong, even if you didn't like it at the time? Unless you wanna become a hermit, you have to deal with having at least some values forced upon you. Those values I have the choice to ignore. A law I do not.
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Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:34 pm
xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox xxEternallyBluexx neutral You aren't, I'm gonna have to tell you. Most Christians would tell you that, by what you said, including my brother (who's in his last year of Bible college), my mom (who's been a Christian for 30 years), my pastors, and just about all the Christians I know. Christians believe they need Jesus to save them because they've sinned. It's a major point to the religion (way more important then homosexuality, creationism, and all that that). You may believe in points of the Bible, but a huge thing is realizing you need Christ and accepting Him as you're Lord and Savior. By what you've said, you haven't done that. neutral And you totally misread what I said. I did accept Christ as my lord and savior. I still do. However my life didn't make a full 360. It's not going to do a full 360. There is no such thing as instant gratification. And last I checked you're not God. So you the ******** are you to decide who is a ******** Christian and who the ******** isn't? Take the splinter out of your own ******** eye before making a ******** judgment call about someone else. I never said anything about an instant 360, or being perfect instantly. But a major point is realizing you're a sinner and need Him. You said you were a 'good person' beforehand, but I don't know of any Christians who would say that. I wouldn't say that, and I accepted him the first time I felt guilty (I was around 3). Christians are supposed to strive for perfection and being like Jesus though. This isn't a passive religion or relationship. God is someone you have to seek after. I also don't know of any Christians who wouldn't bow to God or Jesus. That was another indicator. That's part of what the whole praying on your knees with your hands folded thing is about you know. I'm not judging you, I'm just going off what you said and what I know about my own religion. I could send what you said off to my brother (who is gonna be a pastor, so he should know) and see if he agrees. And a lot of Christians would also say if you don't believe Jesus is God, you aren't a Christian, but I'm not gonna go that far. That is a clear judgement call. And I could care less what your brother thinks or that he's going to be a pastor. I do not trust so called holy men. I trust in Jesus and God only. However to me, Jesus is my spiritual teacher. He guides me and teaches me. I do not need some mortal to do that. I don't look at sin as some evil thing. I look at sin as the things we need to work on, our shortcomings as humans. They are the things we need to improve on. I have not killed, cheated or stole. I never lied when I was younger. So yes I was a good person. Why? Because I was born like everyone else with a clean slate. When I became Christian, I was but a babe. I did not know what sin was, I was not of the age of accountability. How could I know when I didn't understand the concept of good or bad. I doubt that you had a feeling of guilt when you were three. Chances are your parents caused you to feel guilt instead of calmly teaching you that what you did was wrong. Parents should never guilt trip their kids even at a young age. It's sickening when they do. Except believing that Jesus is God, isn't a teaching for everyone. Not all Christians accept he is God. Some believe that he is simply the Son of God, the Savior and a spiritual teacher. To some going as far as calling him God, would be idolatry. When I pray I never kneel. I either stand or I sit. But I will never kneel. To me, kneeling is a sign of weakness and a sign that you have a weak faith. By standing, it's a sign that I am strong and unwavering. It also shows that I respect God. At the end of the prayer besides saying Amen, I will bow my head out of respect and clap my hands twice to sort of end whatever trance I am in, if I am in one. It's an unconscious thing I do to make sure my mind and my body are both aware of it's surroundings. Actually it's not, at least, not the way you mean it. I'm not condeming you, I'm just letting you know where you're off. Anyway, if you don't want you're opinions eveluated, you shouldn't post them. And there are some holy men and women who know more then you. It's not wrong to call upon their opinion. You can't become a Christian as a baby. You have to accept Him as Lord and Savior, and the reason for doing that is because we've sinned, so we need Him to redeem us. I did. I distinctly remember the feeling. And my mom didn't 'guilt trip' me. I went to her, and said I didn't feel right. According to her me and my three sibs all did that, and she only told me that after I brought it up with her. And my dad was more likely to do the guilt trip thing, but he wasn't around. What I felt had nothing to do with my parents, and everything to do with the fact I sinned and was seperated from the Lord by that. I believe Jesus is God. But I'm not gonna go into that. Kneeling is a sign of respect. You'd kneel before a king, and Jesus is the King of Kings. If you believe He's Lord, then there's a submissive attitude that goes along with that. And He also values our obedience. While He's supposed to be our friend and teacher He's also supposed to be our sheperd, Lord, and King. He's in charge. Actually you bow before a king you don't normally kneel unless you're asking for forgiveness because you screwed up. And yes you can become a Christian as a baby. There's a thing called baptism at birth. Just because you don't accept it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's pretty ignorant and intellectually dishonest to even say that you can't become a Christian as a baby. neutral And again, whether or not someone isn't a Christian, isn't a judgment call for you to make. You are neither God nor are you Jesus. If I were you, I'd bite my tongue and know where my place is, young one. Well, you have to repent for your sins, so technically kneeling is appropriate. That's a Catholic belief. Are you a Catholic? If you are, some would argue you're not a Christian. I think some Catholics are Christians, but being Catholic doesn't automatically make you one. Like I said, I'm not judging. And no, I'm not gonna bite my tongue on this. I'm not God or Jesus, but if you're advocating beliefs not of my religion, and attributing them to my religion, I'm gonna say something. And how old are you anyway? I'm 17, and a lot of the stuff I'm saying my mom would comfirm and she's 53. And @ Shiori: Untrue. Most religions have major points you have to believe in order to be of that religion. For some, there's major things you have to do in order to become part of it. And not exactly. You're parent's values have a negative or positive impact on you. You have to really make an active choice regarding them, so even those you really can't ignore.
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