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 Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:20 am
It's perfectly natural to want more. One of the major traits of humanity is creativity and abstract thinking - it actually helps us survive. It allows us to create tools, to change our environment to suit our needs. Grieving death and rejoicing at birth is perfectly natural, too, and not only humans do that. Most social mammals grieve death, because death in the tribe is bad for it. We are a social animal and we rely on cooperation to survive. That's why we need stuff like empathy and morals.
Now, art and such is a by-product of our ability of abstract thought and creativity. This is also one of the reasons why we pin purpose and meaning on pretty much everything. Because it benefits us, since it leads to more complex behaviours, which in turn can help us survive.
And I'd like to talk about "meaning" for a bit here (again). There isn't any inherent meaning in anything, no. We give stuff meaning. To think that if someone created all of this with some purpose, that that gives it more meaning, to me, is absurd. Because it's just shifting the meaning to something higher and doesn't really satisfy the need for everything having some kind of purpose behind it. Because, in the big picture, what purpose is there for god to exist? Does god wonder, "why am I here, why am I doing all of this?". Of course, you're probably going to just define god as needing no purpose, and end the chain, similarly to the first cause argument. But that is just solving this need for purpose without thinking too much about it, just making up an entity that ends the chain - a chain that doesn't even need to exist.
I have no problem with the notion that not everything has a purpose. I think our world is just as fascinating and beautiful, if not more so, than if we posited some "higher" purpose for everything, which just shifts the attention away from how great all of this is, and how lucky we really are.
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Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:34 pm
Artto It's perfectly natural to want more. One of the major traits of humanity is creativity and abstract thinking - it actually helps us survive. It allows us to create tools, to change our environment to suit our needs. Grieving death and rejoicing at birth is perfectly natural, too, and not only humans do that. Most social mammals grieve death, because death in the tribe is bad for it. We are a social animal and we rely on cooperation to survive. That's why we need stuff like empathy and morals. Now, art and such is a by-product of our ability of abstract thought and creativity. This is also one of the reasons why we pin purpose and meaning on pretty much everything. Because it benefits us, since it leads to more complex behaviours, which in turn can help us survive. And I'd like to talk about "meaning" for a bit here (again). There isn't any inherent meaning in anything, no. We give stuff meaning. To think that if someone created all of this with some purpose, that that gives it more meaning, to me, is absurd. Because it's just shifting the meaning to something higher and doesn't really satisfy the need for everything having some kind of purpose behind it. Because, in the big picture, what purpose is there for god to exist? Does god wonder, "why am I here, why am I doing all of this?". Of course, you're probably going to just define god as needing no purpose, and end the chain, similarly to the first cause argument. But that is just solving this need for purpose without thinking too much about it, just making up an entity that ends the chain - a chain that doesn't even need to exist. I have no problem with the notion that not everything has a purpose. I think our world is just as fascinating and beautiful, if not more so, than if we posited some "higher" purpose for everything, which just shifts the attention away from how great all of this is, and how lucky we really are. So you're basically attributing all our creativity, and dislike of death to building better tools and social behaviors? confused If it's really like that, then that's disappointing. I still don't think it is though. I don't think we should have needs that whatever created us (the universe vs. God) can't satisfy. Music and art aren't really related to mathematics and engineering, where our new technology comes from. Getting distracted by things in our environment (like sunsets, or flowers), probably would have been more of a negative then a positive. And later, coming up with ideas (like God or freedom), that we felt were worth more then our own lives...well, doesn't that go against the survival instinct? And it still doesn't make sense for life to have such a strong desire to survive, unless it was put there. Evolution is completely based on organisms needing to survive, but have you ever thought it's strange that life works so hard at that? This isn't any reason for it. By that argument, I could decide to give your post no meaning. I don't have to respect your ideas, because all I'm going against is the survival instinct. If you don't have a soul, and are just a meat bag with some chemicals and sparks, then I really don't have to respect what you say at all, now do I? I only care what you say because I think you have a soul; the moment I think you do not have a soul is the moment I don't care at all. God's purpose; I can't define it perfectly because in my finiteness I doubt I could ever completely understand God. But from what I know, His purpose is love. From Him comes creativity and logic, science and art, music and reason: everything worth living for. His purpose is to be where it all comes from, and then to be in charge of it all. I think it's empty if all purpose comes from human. As a race, eventually we will all die. Then all purpose dies. I'm not interested in celebrating something that has nothing lasting behind it. God gives the universe permanence, even if not everything stays in whatever form it exists in now; that's why His existence makes it worth it to me.
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Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:43 pm
Life that wouldn't have the will to survive ... wouldn't survive. Life without the will to survive can't exist. What I was saying is that a soul, or a god given purpose doesn't add any value. Yeah, we're meatbags. But we're incredible, complex and beautiful meatbags. And you have this obsession with eternity - why can't things matter here and now? xxEverBluexx I only care what you say because I think you have a soul; the moment I think you do not have a soul is the moment I don't care at all. And I find that disappointing. xxEverBluexx God's purpose; I can't define it perfectly because in my finiteness I doubt I could ever completely understand God. But from what I know, His purpose is love. From Him comes creativity and logic, science and art, music and reason: everything worth living for. His purpose is to be where it all comes from, and then to be in charge of it all. I think it's empty if all purpose comes from human. As a race, eventually we will all die. Then all purpose dies. I'm not interested in celebrating something that has nothing lasting behind it. God gives the universe permanence, even if not everything stays in whatever form it exists in now; that's why His existence makes it worth it to me. OK, and what's the purpose behind all that?
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Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:16 pm
Eccentric Detective divineseraph Eccentric Detective Captain_Shinzo divineseraph What? You need to take a logic class.
My point is, she was implying that something was already what it was, which I was trying to imply in my extremely sarcastic way that thinking something already WAS by an assumption is quite absurd. *scratches head* My point is, it doesn't matter what the possibilities were, because this world is what it is. We could go on to speculate about what kind of alternate worlds there would be which are significantly different from ours, but that's something for another discussion. Why must we think we are special because a planet suitable for life eventually developed life? What we don't know is WHY, though. Why CAN'T the universe be the body of God? Why can't there be a why? Just because we know HOW a system works doesn't mean we know what caused it to be in the first place. I heard a terrible argument in a book by an atheist- It compared the universe to a machine, that the gears are not special just because they do the job that they do. But this left open a gaping hole- Machines are intentionally crafted for a purpose, by a conscious creator. If we are gears, if the universe is a machine, why can there not be a reason behind it? That is a strange argument for an atheist to make. :S It sounds a lot like the Watchmaker argument. But the point is, the universe cannot be compared to a clock. A clock is not alive. A clock cannot think. A clock--as most of you will agree--does not have a soul. I'm still waiting for an answer as to when a soul would have appeared in the evolutionary cycle. That's an important point, Artto. EDIT: This occurred to me. Why are we like gears? Why not, excuse the ridiculousness, puddles of mud or something? How can we assume that this is intentional? A clock made by a master can have the power of the soul, though- True masterwork is done with the energy and connection of a worker's soul with his materials and tools. That is why food made by Grandma, for example, is better than anything that can be produced in a factory, even with the exact same ingredients- It's all about the soul. It's also why our best, precision-made steel and titanium is nowhere near as sharp and enduring as the bronzework of the ancients. If we are part of a machine, or a moving mechanism, as we must be as we have moving parts that exert force on other things and propel them into motion, then we are active parts- Gears, cogs, bearings, belts, whatever. A puddle of mud implies stasis, a machine implies repetitive and measurable motion. We would fit the bill of a machine better, and even the cosmos without living beings would be mechanistic as the planets and stars follow their course under defined rules.
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Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:32 pm
Artto Life that wouldn't have the will to survive ... wouldn't survive. Life without the will to survive can't exist. What I was saying is that a soul, or a god given purpose doesn't add any value. Yeah, we're meatbags. But we're incredible, complex and beautiful meatbags. And you have this obsession with eternity - why can't things matter here and now? xxEverBluexx I only care what you say because I think you have a soul; the moment I think you do not have a soul is the moment I don't care at all. And I find that disappointing. xxEverBluexx God's purpose; I can't define it perfectly because in my finiteness I doubt I could ever completely understand God. But from what I know, His purpose is love. From Him comes creativity and logic, science and art, music and reason: everything worth living for. His purpose is to be where it all comes from, and then to be in charge of it all. I think it's empty if all purpose comes from human. As a race, eventually we will all die. Then all purpose dies. I'm not interested in celebrating something that has nothing lasting behind it. God gives the universe permanence, even if not everything stays in whatever form it exists in now; that's why His existence makes it worth it to me. OK, and what's the purpose behind all that? Yes it can. A whole species can't exist without a desire to live, but there's plenty of suicidal people who are still breathing. Why should all of an organism's efforts be focused into living? People aren't like that. Some people live to love, or create, but unless you live in a place where survival's tough, surviving isn't usually a big deal. Because at the end of the day, a beautiful and complex meatbag is just a meatbag. The here and now is not enough for me. I want things to go further, everything that's worthwhile. I don't like putting effort into something that won't last. Even this discussion: if what I learn from it ends with me when I die, then there was no point to the effort that went to it. I don't know why I have an obsession with eternity except for maybe....I've always believed in an afterlife. For you to tell me everything will end is disappointing because when I'm used to thinking things will last, then the here and now isn't good enough, and it never will be. Well, of what worth is a meatbag? When you're words having lasting meaning, and you have a soul that God crafted, that makes you worth something. Otherwise peoples worth is just based on other people, and people with physical and mental deformities are less then everyone else, because their worth is based on how well their body functions. If everyone has a soul, not matter your traits, you're equal to everyone else. If everyone doesn't, then equality is wrong (not morally because morals don't exist, but just not true). Not something I can express in words. It's worth it though, I know that. I think it's something kinda like being in love, taking pleasure in a song or work of art, and the satisfaction of reading something that makes sense all combined...and it's eternal. :3
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:30 am
xxEverBluexx Yes it can. A whole species can't exist without a desire to live, but there's plenty of suicidal people who are still breathing. Why should all of an organism's efforts be focused into living? People aren't like that. Some people live to love, or create, but unless you live in a place where survival's tough, surviving isn't usually a big deal. Yes, some people actually have time to focus on stuff other than surviving. That is because of technological advancements and our success as a species. And a suicidal person is just an anomaly. What matters is the survival of a species - I don't even know where you were going with this, it doesn't address the point. "Suicidal people can be alive, too!" Did you really think I was making the point that you die as soon as you lose your will to live? I was making the point about life in general, and how it is perfectly natural to have a will to live. You don't need to attribute that to a soul. If you believe in an eternal afterlife, then this life matters only to the point of death anyway. You can't have memories without a brain anyway - that's pretty much clear. Brain damage causes memory loss a lot of the time. Certain degenerative disorders, such as Alzheimer's also cause memory problems. Without your brain, you won't be able to have any memories, and it will be like nothing ever happened.
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:16 am
Artto xxEverBluexx Yes it can. A whole species can't exist without a desire to live, but there's plenty of suicidal people who are still breathing. Why should all of an organism's efforts be focused into living? People aren't like that. Some people live to love, or create, but unless you live in a place where survival's tough, surviving isn't usually a big deal. Yes, some people actually have time to focus on stuff other than surviving. That is because of technological advancements and our success as a species. And a suicidal person is just an anomaly. What matters is the survival of a species - I don't even know where you were going with this, it doesn't address the point. "Suicidal people can be alive, too!" Did you really think I was making the point that you die as soon as you lose your will to live? I was making the point about life in general, and how it is perfectly natural to have a will to live. You don't need to attribute that to a soul. If you believe in an eternal afterlife, then this life matters only to the point of death anyway. You can't have memories without a brain anyway - that's pretty much clear. Brain damage causes memory loss a lot of the time. Certain degenerative disorders, such as Alzheimer's also cause memory problems. Without your brain, you won't be able to have any memories, and it will be like nothing ever happened. Well, can you pick out the part of the brain that tells you to survive? Or the part that tells you to be creative? At some point human nature isn't based around surviving! And no, I didn't think that was your point...though while we're on the topic, how come the suicide rate goes up when the population is doing well? No this life matters because it affects the afterlife. No, it won't. You don't believe in this anyway and I can't give you evidence except maybe isolated incidents (there are at least four people I've read of who have died, seen Heaven, and come back, though. Do you want me to look them up?), but after we die we get new bodies that aren't made to grow old or decay. Those people all kept their memories, so I assume they're transfered over to our new bodies. Maybe the soul stores them too, and just can't bring them up without the tools (the brain) to do so.
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:44 am
xxEverBluexx Well, can you pick out the part of the brain that tells you to survive? Or the part that tells you to be creative? At some point human nature isn't based around surviving! If I remember correctly, the more primitive parts of the brain are involved in the survival instinct (the cerebellum), while the cerebral cortex (especially the frontal lobe) is involved in abstract thinking (e.g. creativity). The basic human nature is based around survival. The survival instinct is one of the strongest. But as I was saying, I don't find the phrase "the brain tells us" very meaningful. I don't see why I would separate "us" from our brain - we are our brain. xxEverBluexx though while we're on the topic, how come the suicide rate goes up when the population is doing well? Because people are not preoccupied with the basic human needs, and have the time to think about other stuff - which can lead to some weird thoughts. When you're preoccupied with feeding yourself, you don't even have the time to contemplate suicide. It might also have something to do with the religiosity of the population in less developed parts of the world. xxEverBluexx No this life matters because it affects the afterlife. Yes, but when you reach afterlife, this life becomes meaningless. It's just a tool to get to the real thing - the afterlife. Worldly things (such as this conversation, for example) don't matter there. xxEverBluexx No, it won't. You don't believe in this anyway and I can't give you evidence except maybe isolated incidents (there are at least four people I've read of who have died, seen Heaven, and come back, though. Do you want me to look them up?) I've seen plenty. But you should know by now, that I'm not prone to accepting anecdotal evidence at face value. razz xxEverBluexx , but after we die we get new bodies that aren't made to grow old or decay. Those people all kept their memories, so I assume they're transfered over to our new bodies. Maybe the soul stores them too, and just can't bring them up without the tools (the brain) to do so. Fair enough. But I don't see why I would accept an unproven/unprovable concept, that requires me to make up a bunch of elaborate mechanisms to solve problems, that wouldn't even exist without it.
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:49 pm
Artto xxEverBluexx No this life matters because it affects the afterlife. Yes, but when you reach afterlife, this life becomes meaningless. It's just a tool to get to the real thing - the afterlife. Worldly things (such as this conversation, for example) don't matter there. No, because the experiences here validate the power of the afterlife. You know those whiny, dickwad trust fund babies who never have to lift a finger and cry when they get the wrong color sports car, costing more than ten times the wage of the person who built it, for their birthday? Do you know WHY they don't value their power? They've always had it. It's inherent to them. It doesn't mean anything to them. Likewise with us- Give us eternity right off the bat, and we'll feel entitled. We won't appreciate it. If we are physical first, it lets us mature and gestate, evolve. It gives us, if we're doing it right, respect for what we will join when we shed our shell. It gives us the means to go from Nigredo to Rubedo.
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:14 pm
What if,the soul is the brain of the human body?
And,just humor me here,what if there are no souls in the universe,instead the moment of death we wake up and see a blinding white light. When our vison unblurs were in a hospital,no recollection of our past life and instead is in a new one. A continuos cycle of Death,life,and ultra porn.
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:47 pm
Extuis What if,the soul is the brain of the human body?
And,just humor me here,what if there are no souls in the universe,instead the moment of death we wake up and see a blinding white light. When our vison unblurs were in a hospital,no recollection of our past life and instead is in a new one. A continuos cycle of Death,life,and ultra porn. Welcome to some sects of Buddhism.
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:58 pm
Artto xxEverBluexx Well, can you pick out the part of the brain that tells you to survive? Or the part that tells you to be creative? At some point human nature isn't based around surviving! If I remember correctly, the more primitive parts of the brain are involved in the survival instinct (the cerebellum), while the cerebral cortex (especially the frontal lobe) is involved in abstract thinking (e.g. creativity). The basic human nature is based around survival. The survival instinct is one of the strongest. But as I was saying, I don't find the phrase "the brain tells us" very meaningful. I don't see why I would separate "us" from our brain - we are our brain. xxEverBluexx though while we're on the topic, how come the suicide rate goes up when the population is doing well? Because people are not preoccupied with the basic human needs, and have the time to think about other stuff - which can lead to some weird thoughts. When you're preoccupied with feeding yourself, you don't even have the time to contemplate suicide. It might also have something to do with the religiosity of the population in less developed parts of the world. xxEverBluexx No this life matters because it affects the afterlife. Yes, but when you reach afterlife, this life becomes meaningless. It's just a tool to get to the real thing - the afterlife. Worldly things (such as this conversation, for example) don't matter there. xxEverBluexx No, it won't. You don't believe in this anyway and I can't give you evidence except maybe isolated incidents (there are at least four people I've read of who have died, seen Heaven, and come back, though. Do you want me to look them up?) I've seen plenty. But you should know by now, that I'm not prone to accepting anecdotal evidence at face value. razz xxEverBluexx , but after we die we get new bodies that aren't made to grow old or decay. Those people all kept their memories, so I assume they're transfered over to our new bodies. Maybe the soul stores them too, and just can't bring them up without the tools (the brain) to do so. Fair enough. But I don't see why I would accept an unproven/unprovable concept, that requires me to make up a bunch of elaborate mechanisms to solve problems, that wouldn't even exist without it. I'm sorry, I didn't phrase that right. sweatdrop My real question I already know the answer to: can you describe exactly how little bits of electricity form pictures, sounds, memories? I know how it works, but I also know that the brain isn't perfectly understood at all (I think in the last book I read that mentioned the brain said we used only 10%, but I can't find the statistic online). The point being, if we understand so little about it, then we can't really trust what we understand about it yet. We can't define humans by what we know of the brain with so little information. Besides, even if the brain is physical, the mind isn't. It's as invisible as the soul, but we know we aren't just a lump of gray matter making sparks. We can see and hear our thoughts, and that's out universal evidence for the mind, but it's not very concrete, is it? I don't think, with what we know about humans, it's so unreasonable to make a jump to us having a soul (I've already pretty much posted my spiel on why we have one, and you've attributed it to survival the mind...I think this is just one of those cases where we interpret evidence differently). If you believe in a soul, then you aren't your brain. Still, you'd think on an evolutionary basis, that the organisms in a populace that has everything it needs would take advantage of that, and the population would thrive. Instead as we do better, populations become more stable, and don't grow as much; they might even go down. I bet that wouldn't happen among rats or guinea pigs if they put a bunch together in an environment they could thrive in; their population would most likely just keep growing. Even among monkeys, I doubt not needing to fight to survive would cause any of them to become suicidal. This life doesn't matter as much, but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter at all. We wouldn't be here if it didn't hold some importance. You'd accept a scientists observations at face value, I bet, unless you thought you had a very good reason not to. I feel the same about anecdotal evidence. I don't think there's any reason to trust scientists more then anyone else. I'm not asking you to accept it, because the only real evidence I have is the people who have died and come back, the Bible (which I doubt you'll accept as evidence) and my own personal experience with God, none of which hold up a scientific standard. The truth is, I don't think any evidence for a soul will satisfy when your only standard is science, because science is only one way to look at the universe. It's like deciding to measure space, but not time because time isn't visible. I can't prove almost anything spiritual to you while you only work with a scientific view, and I'm not going to ask you to take up a spiritual view so...
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Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:06 am
xxEverBluexx You'd accept a scientists observations at face value, I bet, unless you thought you had a very good reason not to. I feel the same about anecdotal evidence. I don't think there's any reason to trust scientists more then anyone else. I can check the work of the scientists and see if it makes sense. I can't check anecdotal evidence. If something weird happens to a person, they are quick to explain it as something they would like to be true: unexplained movement of an object -> it's a ghost! -> tell your friends you saw a ghost. Furthermore, human memory is notoriously unreliable, so relying on un-testable, unprovable stories can cause you to have a whole bunch of false beliefs. Also, you only accept anecdotal evidence, when it fits your world view. Would you believe someone if they said, that Muhammed came down from the heavens and gave them a revised version of the Koran? If you can't explain something it's just that - it's currently unexplainable. You can't just make up an explanation. I don't understand consciousness -> therefore we have a soul. It just doesn't work that way. On the suicide thing - how does having a soul explain suicides? Or is it just this "I can't explain it, therefore soul" argument again? A human brain is very complex, it's bound to do weird stuff. Weird stuff doesn't automatically imply a soul. divineseraph No, because the experiences here validate the power of the afterlife. You know those whiny, dickwad trust fund babies who never have to lift a finger and cry when they get the wrong color sports car, costing more than ten times the wage of the person who built it, for their birthday? Do you know WHY they don't value their power? They've always had it. It's inherent to them. It doesn't mean anything to them. Likewise with us- Give us eternity right off the bat, and we'll feel entitled. We won't appreciate it. If we are physical first, it lets us mature and gestate, evolve. It gives us, if we're doing it right, respect for what we will join when we shed our shell. It gives us the means to go from Nigredo to Rubedo. This actually makes some sense. Doesn't mean I believe it, but if it were true, that would be a nice hypothesis. You win this one biggrin
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Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:33 am
divineseraph Extuis What if,the soul is the brain of the human body?
And,just humor me here,what if there are no souls in the universe,instead the moment of death we wake up and see a blinding white light. When our vison unblurs were in a hospital,no recollection of our past life and instead is in a new one. A continuos cycle of Death,life,and ultra porn. Welcome to some sects of Buddhism.
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Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:02 am
Artto xxEverBluexx You'd accept a scientists observations at face value, I bet, unless you thought you had a very good reason not to. I feel the same about anecdotal evidence. I don't think there's any reason to trust scientists more then anyone else. I can check the work of the scientists and see if it makes sense. I can't check anecdotal evidence. If something weird happens to a person, they are quick to explain it as something they would like to be true: unexplained movement of an object -> it's a ghost! -> tell your friends you saw a ghost. Furthermore, human memory is notoriously unreliable, so relying on un-testable, unprovable stories can cause you to have a whole bunch of false beliefs. Also, you only accept anecdotal evidence, when it fits your world view. Would you believe someone if they said, that Muhammed came down from the heavens and gave them a revised version of the Koran? If you can't explain something it's just that - it's currently unexplainable. You can't just make up an explanation. I don't understand consciousness -> therefore we have a soul. It just doesn't work that way. On the suicide thing - how does having a soul explain suicides? Or is it just this "I can't explain it, therefore soul" argument again? A human brain is very complex, it's bound to do weird stuff. Weird stuff doesn't automatically imply a soul. That's true, except that scientists are fully capable of, and do use evidence to support whatever viewpoint they hold. They can get things just as wrong as anyone else can. And at what point have enough humans experienced something that it's believable? There has to be some non-provable things that we believe just because enough people know about it. If it was based on a personal revelation, I'd attribute it to something. I might not believe it's exactly how that person thought it was (like I might think a demon gave them the revelation instead) but I wouldn't think they were lying unless I thought they might have a motive to lie (like with Muhammad; I believe he lied for profit and fame). Does our conciousness exist? If so, then it has to be because of something, even it's just something vague like a soul that not everyone understands. Saying we have a soul, at least in this context, is basically just admitting there's something wonderful there that no one completely gets but everyone has. Brains are wired to work a certain way (didn't you say the strongest impulse was for survival?), and I don't think suicide really fits in with the way brains are wired. There's nothing that says the soul is wired for survival though... Are you saying the brain doesn't have to act logically?
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