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 Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:40 pm
xxEternallyBluexx In Medias Res IV Tsukiyo, none of her definitions mean anything, don't even bother. I'm a monotheist, I just happen to believe there are more gods than one. I can just as easily claim Christians polytheists because they believe Jesus as a divine character and a man. That's polytheism. The Trinity is polytheism too, while we're at it. You can't just make up your own definition of polythiesm. Those definitions are Google's, not mine. The Trinity is one Godhead with three parts, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. If you're talking about that, I can't help you because even the best Christian thinkers can't entirely explain it. If we could explain God, then He's not greater then us. And you really can't just acknowledge Him as a 'savior type figure/spiritual teacher'. He claimed to be the Messiah, the Son of God. He either had to be a liar, delusional, a lunatic, or correct to make that claim. I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic -- on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg -- or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. – Mere Christianity, pages 40-41, C. S. Lewis Not my words, but one of my favorite quotes by one of my favorite authors. Lewis says it rather nicely, doesn't he? Believing that three different people/parts=one God is soft polytheism. The Trinity is a pagan concept. Look at Hinduism and the Celts. Both had Trinities. neutral Also Jesus never claimed to be Messiah. He never claimed to be the Son of God. Prove that he claimed to be Messiah. neutral
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:56 pm
In Medias Res IV xxEternallyBluexx In Medias Res IV -Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden In Medias Res IV Tsukiyo, none of her definitions mean anything, don't even bother. I'm a monotheist, I just happen to believe there are more gods than one. I can just as easily claim Christians polytheists because they believe Jesus as a divine character and a man. That's polytheism. The Trinity is polytheism too, while we're at it. What if we believe he's a savior type figure/spiritual teacher but don't believe he's God...o.o Then you're not like most Christians. Most believe him to be G-d even though there is absolutely no proof that he is anything but a rabbi. If there was absolutely no proof, it wouldn't be one of the world's major religions. Even Christians admit there's some truth in every religion ([except athiesm] though we still believe everyone needs Jesus, of course), while you're saying Christianity has absolutely no truth to one of it's biggest points. So you're saying that Mohammed is a prophet? I'm saying at least Islam believes in a God, and while I may think the religion is false it has some truth by admitting that. I do believe Mohammed lied or was delusional though. He did claim to be the Messiah. There wouldn't br so many people going around believing He was if He didn't at least claim it. Why else would your people have crucified Him? Check the sites: http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/considering-who-jesus-claimed-to-be.html http://www.rationalchristianity.net/jesus_claim.html http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/John/Jesus-Claims-Messiah-One-God http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/miscclaims.html http://www.jesusfamilytomb.com/did-jesus-claim-messiahship.html http://executableoutlines.com/tymb/tymb_03.htm http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=16576 http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/salvation/salvation.htm You're also wrong about Lewis, he wrote multiple books concerning Christianity. Mere Christianity is especially good. Check the sites: http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/cslewis.htm http://personal.bgsu.edu/~edwards/biobib.html
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 3:14 pm
And the moment you claimed Jews killed Jesus is the moment you discredited yourself. Good job.
Many people have claimed to be the messiah, Jesus just had good timing.
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 3:14 pm
xxEternallyBluexx In Medias Res IV xxEternallyBluexx In Medias Res IV -Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden In Medias Res IV Tsukiyo, none of her definitions mean anything, don't even bother. I'm a monotheist, I just happen to believe there are more gods than one. I can just as easily claim Christians polytheists because they believe Jesus as a divine character and a man. That's polytheism. The Trinity is polytheism too, while we're at it. What if we believe he's a savior type figure/spiritual teacher but don't believe he's God...o.o Then you're not like most Christians. Most believe him to be G-d even though there is absolutely no proof that he is anything but a rabbi. If there was absolutely no proof, it wouldn't be one of the world's major religions. Even Christians admit there's some truth in every religion ([except athiesm] though we still believe everyone needs Jesus, of course), while you're saying Christianity has absolutely no truth to one of it's biggest points. So you're saying that Mohammed is a prophet? I'm saying at least Islam believes in a God, and while I may think the religion is false it has some truth by admitting that. I do believe Mohammed lied or was delusional though. He did claim to be the Messiah. There wouldn't br so many people going around believing He was if He didn't at least claim it. Why else would your people have crucified Him? Check the sites: http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/considering-who-jesus-claimed-to-be.html http://www.rationalchristianity.net/jesus_claim.html http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/John/Jesus-Claims-Messiah-One-God http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/miscclaims.html http://www.jesusfamilytomb.com/did-jesus-claim-messiahship.html http://executableoutlines.com/tymb/tymb_03.htm http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=16576 http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/salvation/salvation.htm You're also wrong about Lewis, he wrote multiple books concerning Christianity. Mere Christianity is especially good. Check the sites: http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/cslewis.htm http://personal.bgsu.edu/~edwards/biobib.html He was crucified because he broke some of the laws. http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/Dictionary/viewTopic.cfm?type=getTopic&topic=JESUS CHRIST, THE ARREST AND TRIAL OF And CS Lewis IS a fiction writer and a poor apologist.
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 3:52 pm
-Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden xxEternallyBluexx In Medias Res IV xxEternallyBluexx In Medias Res IV Then you're not like most Christians. Most believe him to be G-d even though there is absolutely no proof that he is anything but a rabbi. If there was absolutely no proof, it wouldn't be one of the world's major religions. Even Christians admit there's some truth in every religion ([except athiesm] though we still believe everyone needs Jesus, of course), while you're saying Christianity has absolutely no truth to one of it's biggest points. So you're saying that Mohammed is a prophet? I'm saying at least Islam believes in a God, and while I may think the religion is false it has some truth by admitting that. I do believe Mohammed lied or was delusional though. He did claim to be the Messiah. There wouldn't br so many people going around believing He was if He didn't at least claim it. Why else would your people have crucified Him? Check the sites: http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/considering-who-jesus-claimed-to-be.html http://www.rationalchristianity.net/jesus_claim.html http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/John/Jesus-Claims-Messiah-One-God http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/miscclaims.html http://www.jesusfamilytomb.com/did-jesus-claim-messiahship.html http://executableoutlines.com/tymb/tymb_03.htm http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=16576 http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/salvation/salvation.htm You're also wrong about Lewis, he wrote multiple books concerning Christianity. Mere Christianity is especially good. Check the sites: http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/cslewis.htm http://personal.bgsu.edu/~edwards/biobib.html He was crucified because he broke some of the laws. http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/Dictionary/viewTopic.cfm?type=getTopic&topic=JESUS CHRIST, THE ARREST AND TRIAL OF And CS Lewis IS a fiction writer and a poor apologist. I don't mean to get picky here but if we're tackling this under the assumption that the bible is the inspired word of God then technically we all killed him by sinning. The Jews didn't kill him, the Pharisees played a direct role in his sentencing by bringing up the claims against him and throwing him at the feet of Rome, and Pilate would be responsible for sentencing him to death by means of crucifixion. If we aren't working under the aforementioned presupposition then that changes everything, especially since we don't really have any written documentation of the event (outside of the bible) soon after the fact. That leads into the whole, 'did Jesus exist in the first place' debate.
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:16 pm
Semiremis -Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden xxEternallyBluexx In Medias Res IV xxEternallyBluexx In Medias Res IV Then you're not like most Christians. Most believe him to be G-d even though there is absolutely no proof that he is anything but a rabbi. If there was absolutely no proof, it wouldn't be one of the world's major religions. Even Christians admit there's some truth in every religion ([except athiesm] though we still believe everyone needs Jesus, of course), while you're saying Christianity has absolutely no truth to one of it's biggest points. So you're saying that Mohammed is a prophet? I'm saying at least Islam believes in a God, and while I may think the religion is false it has some truth by admitting that. I do believe Mohammed lied or was delusional though. He did claim to be the Messiah. There wouldn't br so many people going around believing He was if He didn't at least claim it. Why else would your people have crucified Him? Check the sites: http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/considering-who-jesus-claimed-to-be.html http://www.rationalchristianity.net/jesus_claim.html http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/John/Jesus-Claims-Messiah-One-God http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/miscclaims.html http://www.jesusfamilytomb.com/did-jesus-claim-messiahship.html http://executableoutlines.com/tymb/tymb_03.htm http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=16576 http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/salvation/salvation.htm You're also wrong about Lewis, he wrote multiple books concerning Christianity. Mere Christianity is especially good. Check the sites: http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/cslewis.htm http://personal.bgsu.edu/~edwards/biobib.html He was crucified because he broke some of the laws. http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/Dictionary/viewTopic.cfm?type=getTopic&topic=JESUS CHRIST, THE ARREST AND TRIAL OF And CS Lewis IS a fiction writer and a poor apologist. I don't mean to get picky here but if we're tackling this under the assumption that the bible is the inspired word of God then technically we all killed him by sinning. The Jews didn't kill him, the Pharisees played a direct role in his sentencing by bringing up the claims against him and throwing him at the feet of Rome, and Pilate would be responsible for sentencing him to death by means of crucifixion. If we aren't working under the aforementioned presupposition then that changes everything, especially since we don't really have any written documentation of the event (outside of the bible) soon after the fact. That leads into the whole, 'did Jesus exist in the first place' debate. He didn't die because we sinned. None of us were there when this happened. So you can't place the blame on the current generation or two generations ago. That's being intellectually dishonest. He violated the Jews and the Roman laws. Pilate tried to keep his hands clean and throw the execution of Jesus back on the Jews however, executing Jesus went against their laws. Thus Pilate had him executed by crucifixion which was a major form of execution in Rome. If the Jews were to have executed Jesus then he would have been stoned to death. There is some evidence that Jesus might have existed historically. Whether he was truly God or not is the question. Jews and Muslims alike believe he was merely a teacher. Whereas Christians believe he was some divine being. The real debate is, who is right and who is wrong?
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:22 pm
Jesus REALLY violated Jewish Law, hence why the Jews don't believe him to be moshiach, that and he didn't fulfil the requirements.
He's the messiah of the gentiles, not the Jewish messiah.
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 5:09 pm
In Medias Res IV And the moment you claimed Jews killed Jesus is the moment you discredited yourself. Good job. Many people have claimed to be the messiah, Jesus just had good timing. My other points still stand, even if that one does not (again, you're going off of what wasn't my main point). So you admit that He made the claim? Because if He did, my earlier point still stands. Also, Lewis was a knowledgeble theologist. Read some of his books before you discredit him.
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 5:14 pm
xxEternallyBluexx In Medias Res IV And the moment you claimed Jews killed Jesus is the moment you discredited yourself. Good job. Many people have claimed to be the messiah, Jesus just had good timing. My other points still stand, even if that one does not (again, you're going off of what wasn't my main point). So you admit that He made the claim? Because if He did, my earlier point still stands. Also, Lewis was a knowledgeble theologist. Re ad some of his books before you discredit him. Don't assume what I have and haven't read. His books aren't that good. He being a "knowledgeable theologist" means nothing, I am a knowledgeable theist and you seem to discredit me. No, the church claims Jesus was the messiah. Jesus probably was just a man, a good rabbi, who wanted change for the Jewish nation in a time of dire need. he claimed to be the SON of G-d, not Adonai Himself. As the SON of G-d, he is no different than Avraham, Moses or Adam.
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 5:51 pm
In Medias Res IV xxEternallyBluexx In Medias Res IV And the moment you claimed Jews killed Jesus is the moment you discredited yourself. Good job. Many people have claimed to be the messiah, Jesus just had good timing. My other points still stand, even if that one does not (again, you're going off of what wasn't my main point). So you admit that He made the claim? Because if He did, my earlier point still stands. Also, Lewis was a knowledgeble theologist. Re ad some of his books before you discredit him. Don't assume what I have and haven't read. His books aren't that good. He being a "knowledgeable theologist" means nothing, I am a knowledgeable theist and you seem to discredit me. No, the church claims Jesus was the messiah. Jesus probably was just a man, a good rabbi, who wanted change for the Jewish nation in a time of dire need. he claimed to be the SON of G-d, not Adonai Himself. As the SON of G-d, he is no different than Avraham, Moses or Adam. I don't discredit you. Have I ever insulted or disrepected you on purpose? Mostly, I just try to argue back. However many people acknowledge Lewis as such. My opinion on Lewis being a 'great theologist' is backed by a lot more then just my opinion. 'Jesus just had good timing' was what you said, which implies He made the claim. Abraham, Moses and Adam didn't make that claim the the way Jesus di, and some interpret Son of God (with caps) as Messiah. I'm pretty sure one of the articles I linked here did. Did you even read them?
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:05 pm
xxEternallyBluexx In Medias Res IV xxEternallyBluexx In Medias Res IV And the moment you claimed Jews killed Jesus is the moment you discredited yourself. Good job. Many people have claimed to be the messiah, Jesus just had good timing. My other points still stand, even if that one does not (again, you're going off of what wasn't my main point). So you admit that He made the claim? Because if He did, my earlier point still stands. Also, Lewis was a knowledgeble theologist. Re ad some of his books before you discredit him. Don't assume what I have and haven't read. His books aren't that good. He being a "knowledgeable theologist" means nothing, I am a knowledgeable theist and you seem to discredit me. No, the church claims Jesus was the messiah. Jesus probably was just a man, a good rabbi, who wanted change for the Jewish nation in a time of dire need. he claimed to be the SON of G-d, not Adonai Himself. As the SON of G-d, he is no different than Avraham, Moses or Adam. I don't discredit you. Have I ever insulted or disrepected you on purpose? Mostly, I just try to argue back. However many people acknowledge Lewis as such. My opinion on Lewis being a 'great theologist' is backed by a lot more then just my opinion. 'Jesus just had good timing' was what you said, which implies He made the claim. Abraham, Moses and Adam didn't make that claim the the way Jesus di, and some interpret Son of God (with caps) as Messiah. I'm pretty sure one of the articles I linked here did. Did you even read them? Except we're all Children of God. We are the Sons and Daughters of God. He created Adam, and Abraham as well. It is unknown if Jesus actually claimed to be the son of God.
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:59 pm
-Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden Semiremis -Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden xxEternallyBluexx In Medias Res IV So you're saying that Mohammed is a prophet? I'm saying at least Islam believes in a God, and while I may think the religion is false it has some truth by admitting that. I do believe Mohammed lied or was delusional though. He did claim to be the Messiah. There wouldn't br so many people going around believing He was if He didn't at least claim it. Why else would your people have crucified Him? Check the sites: http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/considering-who-jesus-claimed-to-be.html http://www.rationalchristianity.net/jesus_claim.html http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/John/Jesus-Claims-Messiah-One-God http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/miscclaims.html http://www.jesusfamilytomb.com/did-jesus-claim-messiahship.html http://executableoutlines.com/tymb/tymb_03.htm http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=16576 http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/salvation/salvation.htm You're also wrong about Lewis, he wrote multiple books concerning Christianity. Mere Christianity is especially good. Check the sites: http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/cslewis.htm http://personal.bgsu.edu/~edwards/biobib.html He was crucified because he broke some of the laws. http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/Dictionary/viewTopic.cfm?type=getTopic&topic=JESUS CHRIST, THE ARREST AND TRIAL OF And CS Lewis IS a fiction writer and a poor apologist. I don't mean to get picky here but if we're tackling this under the assumption that the bible is the inspired word of God then technically we all killed him by sinning. The Jews didn't kill him, the Pharisees played a direct role in his sentencing by bringing up the claims against him and throwing him at the feet of Rome, and Pilate would be responsible for sentencing him to death by means of crucifixion. If we aren't working under the aforementioned presupposition then that changes everything, especially since we don't really have any written documentation of the event (outside of the bible) soon after the fact. That leads into the whole, 'did Jesus exist in the first place' debate. He didn't die because we sinned. None of us were there when this happened. So you can't place the blame on the current generation or two generations ago. That's being intellectually dishonest. He violated the Jews and the Roman laws. Pilate tried to keep his hands clean and throw the execution of Jesus back on the Jews however, executing Jesus went against their laws. Thus Pilate had him executed by crucifixion which was a major form of execution in Rome. If the Jews were to have executed Jesus then he would have been stoned to death. There is some evidence that Jesus might have existed historically. Whether he was truly God or not is the question. Jews and Muslims alike believe he was merely a teacher. Whereas Christians believe he was some divine being. The real debate is, who is right and who is wrong? Based on what was known about time and space in the past, Albert Einstein theorized that all of of time exists. You could go look out at the grand canyon and you will see it as it is now because it is there now but so is the tiny stream/creek that began digging out it's path so many years ago, and so is what will become of it in the future. They are all there. Most if not all Christians hold onto the notion that God surpasses time, he is not bound by the rules of time and space. There is no intellectual dishonesty in what I said earlier it's just theology, or at least the theology found in the teachings of the Catholic Church and in most other denominations. I agree that there is plenty of historical evidence in favor of the existence of Jesus, much more so than many other historical figures we typically accept as having been on this earth. I don't think the debate comes down to who is right and who is wrong, it's a matter of faith and a matter of what you see based on the evidence that has been put before you and on which direction your personal bias leads you. The status of Jesus as a person or as just some sort of guiding figure is not something that science can work out for us.
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:11 pm
Semiremis -Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden Semiremis -Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden xxEternallyBluexx In Medias Res IV So you're saying that Mohammed is a prophet? I'm saying at least Islam believes in a God, and while I may think the religion is false it has some truth by admitting that. I do believe Mohammed lied or was delusional though. He did claim to be the Messiah. There wouldn't br so many people going around believing He was if He didn't at least claim it. Why else would your people have crucified Him? Check the sites: http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/considering-who-jesus-claimed-to-be.html http://www.rationalchristianity.net/jesus_claim.html http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/John/Jesus-Claims-Messiah-One-God http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/miscclaims.html http://www.jesusfamilytomb.com/did-jesus-claim-messiahship.html http://executableoutlines.com/tymb/tymb_03.htm http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=16576 http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/salvation/salvation.htm You're also wrong about Lewis, he wrote multiple books concerning Christianity. Mere Christianity is especially good. Check the sites: http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/cslewis.htm http://personal.bgsu.edu/~edwards/biobib.html He was crucified because he broke some of the laws. http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/Dictionary/viewTopic.cfm?type=getTopic&topic=JESUS CHRIST, THE ARREST AND TRIAL OF And CS Lewis IS a fiction writer and a poor apologist. I don't mean to get picky here but if we're tackling this under the assumption that the bible is the inspired word of God then technically we all killed him by sinning. The Jews didn't kill him, the Pharisees played a direct role in his sentencing by bringing up the claims against him and throwing him at the feet of Rome, and Pilate would be responsible for sentencing him to death by means of crucifixion. If we aren't working under the aforementioned presupposition then that changes everything, especially since we don't really have any written documentation of the event (outside of the bible) soon after the fact. That leads into the whole, 'did Jesus exist in the first place' debate. He didn't die because we sinned. None of us were there when this happened. So you can't place the blame on the current generation or two generations ago. That's being intellectually dishonest. He violated the Jews and the Roman laws. Pilate tried to keep his hands clean and throw the execution of Jesus back on the Jews however, executing Jesus went against their laws. Thus Pilate had him executed by crucifixion which was a major form of execution in Rome. If the Jews were to have executed Jesus then he would have been stoned to death. There is some evidence that Jesus might have existed historically. Whether he was truly God or not is the question. Jews and Muslims alike believe he was merely a teacher. Whereas Christians believe he was some divine being. The real debate is, who is right and who is wrong? Based on what was known about time and space in the past, Albert Einstein theorized that all of of time exists. You could go look out at the grand canyon and you will see it as it is now because it is there now but so is the tiny stream/creek that began digging out it's path so many years ago, and so is what will become of it in the future. They are all there. Most if not all Christians hold onto the notion that God surpasses time, he is not bound by the rules of time and space. There is no intellectual dishonesty in what I said earlier it's just theology, or at least the theology found in the teachings of the Catholic Church and in most other denominations. I agree that there is plenty of historical evidence in favor of the existence of Jesus, much more so than many other historical figures we typically accept as having been on this earth. I don't think the debate comes down to who is right and who is wrong, it's a matter of faith and a matter of what you see based on the evidence that has been put before you and on which direction your personal bias leads you. The status of Jesus as a person or as just some sort of guiding figure is not something that science can work out for us. God may surpass time, however we mortals do not. Therefore, your statement is still intellectually dishonest. neutral
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Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 3:44 am
@-Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden
Explain this to me. Why is Judaism not soft-polytheism, especially when you start describing God as the tree of Life within the Jewish Mystical tradition? Each of the 10 Sepheroiths are distinct aspects from each other but they are all still God. That sounds like soft-polytheism to me.
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Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:51 am
rmcdra @-Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden Explain this to me. Why is Judaism not soft-polytheism, especially when you start describing God as the tree of Life within the Jewish Mystical tradition? Each of the 10 Sepheroiths are distinct aspects from each other but they are all still God. That sounds like soft-polytheism to me. Because the Jews believe in one God and only one God. The Jewish Mystical tradition or Kabbalah is something completely different. neutral
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