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 Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:43 am
Joshua_Ritter The Resurrection DrasBrisingr The Resurrection Good and evil are tools of the puppet master and the shepherd. They exist only in the minds of the puppet and the sheep. ...Wait...what the hell? Honestly, I don't understand that at all. I'm all for "******** the man," but "good and evil" are conspiracies of the government, or any other "puppet master" or "shepherd". "Good and evil" are not comparable to something like..."the fight for freedom" or commercialism. I mean, you do realize the concept of "good and evil" has been around almost since the creation of mankind. Or at least communicated from the beginning of spoken language. It's not some new fad that the government or socialites have created to promote conformity or something. I don't know, maybe I'm misinterpreting what you've posted, but that's what stood out to me. I really think you need to lay of the conspiracy theorist novels there, buddy. You're just looking at it with too narrow a spectrum. Anyone who tries to persuade/dissuade someone to do/not do something based on the reasoning that it's good/bad seeks to be a puppet master. They seek to make that person a puppet. For the exact reason that morals are totally relative. Nothing is inherently good or evil and nothing makes them good or evil except your opinion as based on your own goals and desires. Like I always say: There is no good or evil. There is only like and dislike, want and don't want.
Also, you are trying to persuade to not persuade others what is good or bad, because that makes them puppet masters... which is bad.I never said it was escapable. =P And if you should do that, well it is your choice. Just note I will feel compelled at that point to kill you and drink your blood.
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 1:24 am
The Resurrection Joshua_Ritter The Resurrection DrasBrisingr The Resurrection Good and evil are tools of the puppet master and the shepherd. They exist only in the minds of the puppet and the sheep. ...Wait...what the hell? Honestly, I don't understand that at all. I'm all for "******** the man," but "good and evil" are conspiracies of the government, or any other "puppet master" or "shepherd". "Good and evil" are not comparable to something like..."the fight for freedom" or commercialism. I mean, you do realize the concept of "good and evil" has been around almost since the creation of mankind. Or at least communicated from the beginning of spoken language. It's not some new fad that the government or socialites have created to promote conformity or something. I don't know, maybe I'm misinterpreting what you've posted, but that's what stood out to me. I really think you need to lay of the conspiracy theorist novels there, buddy. You're just looking at it with too narrow a spectrum. Anyone who tries to persuade/dissuade someone to do/not do something based on the reasoning that it's good/bad seeks to be a puppet master. They seek to make that person a puppet. For the exact reason that morals are totally relative. Nothing is inherently good or evil and nothing makes them good or evil except your opinion as based on your own goals and desires. Like I always say: There is no good or evil. There is only like and dislike, want and don't want.
Also, you are trying to persuade to not persuade others what is good or bad, because that makes them puppet masters... which is bad.I never said it was escapable. =P And if you should do that, well it is your choice. Just note I will feel compelled at that point to kill you and drink your blood.
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:59 pm
I am just kind of wanting to clarify myself even further. I take pride in having the role of "Devil's Advocate."
It's obvious now that people disagree with The Resurrection's posts, but it may be more palatable when presented slightly differently... or a different view on the same idea. I have not necessarily been showing my opinions, so much as I've been defending points. Nor am I trying to distance myself from the topic at hand.
Another thing we should all look at is this: we have a foggy idea of good and evil. Maybe what we should do is make it a very clear definition, or even redefine it all together. The question being: how do we define such loose, relartive, terms and from there how could we go about refining them?
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:34 pm
Khalida Nyoka I am just kind of wanting to clarify myself even further. I take pride in having the role of "Devil's Advocate." It's obvious now that people disagree with The Resurrection's posts, but it may be more palatable when presented slightly differently... or a different view on the same idea. I have not necessarily been showing my opinions, so much as I've been defending points. Nor am I trying to distance myself from the topic at hand. Another thing we should all look at is this: we have a foggy idea of good and evil. Maybe what we should do is make it a very clear definition, or even redefine it all together. The question being: how do we define such loose, relartive, terms and from there how could we go about refining them?
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 4:56 pm
The Resurrection DrasBrisingr The Resurrection Good and evil are tools of the puppet master and the shepherd. They exist only in the minds of the puppet and the sheep. ...Wait...what the hell? Honestly, I don't understand that at all. I'm all for "******** the man," but "good and evil" are conspiracies of the government, or any other "puppet master" or "shepherd". "Good and evil" are not comparable to something like..."the fight for freedom" or commercialism. I mean, you do realize the concept of "good and evil" has been around almost since the creation of mankind. Or at least communicated from the beginning of spoken language. It's not some new fad that the government or socialites have created to promote conformity or something. I don't know, maybe I'm misinterpreting what you've posted, but that's what stood out to me. I really think you need to lay of the conspiracy theorist novels there, buddy. You're just looking at it with too narrow a spectrum. Anyone who tries to persuade/dissuade someone to do/not do something based on the reasoning that it's good/bad seeks to be a puppet master. They seek to make that person a puppet. For the exact reason that morals are totally relative. Nothing is inherently good or evil and nothing makes them good or evil except your opinion as based on your own goals and desires. Like I always say: There is no good or evil. There is only like and dislike, want and don't want. I'm still missing your logic, here. I mean...I sort of understand where you're coming from, but I think you're getting a bit too carried away with it. Almost anything can be considered puppeteering, if you look at it skeptically enough. Saying "hello" to someone on the street could be seen as trying to be a puppet master, because you're trying to solicit a response from the other person. If you greet someone, don't you expect them to at least acknowledge you? Good and evil are not a method of puppeteering or shepherding, they're just undefined, or defined individually.
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 7:46 pm
DrasBrisingr The Resurrection DrasBrisingr The Resurrection Good and evil are tools of the puppet master and the shepherd. They exist only in the minds of the puppet and the sheep. ...Wait...what the hell? Honestly, I don't understand that at all. I'm all for "******** the man," but "good and evil" are conspiracies of the government, or any other "puppet master" or "shepherd". "Good and evil" are not comparable to something like..."the fight for freedom" or commercialism. I mean, you do realize the concept of "good and evil" has been around almost since the creation of mankind. Or at least communicated from the beginning of spoken language. It's not some new fad that the government or socialites have created to promote conformity or something. I don't know, maybe I'm misinterpreting what you've posted, but that's what stood out to me. I really think you need to lay of the conspiracy theorist novels there, buddy. You're just looking at it with too narrow a spectrum. Anyone who tries to persuade/dissuade someone to do/not do something based on the reasoning that it's good/bad seeks to be a puppet master. They seek to make that person a puppet. For the exact reason that morals are totally relative. Nothing is inherently good or evil and nothing makes them good or evil except your opinion as based on your own goals and desires. Like I always say: There is no good or evil. There is only like and dislike, want and don't want. I'm still missing your logic, here. I mean...I sort of understand where you're coming from, but I think you're getting a bit too carried away with it. Almost anything can be considered puppeteering, if you look at it skeptically enough. Saying "hello" to someone on the street could be seen as trying to be a puppet master, because you're trying to solicit a response from the other person. If you greet someone, don't you expect them to at least acknowledge you? Good and evil are not a method of puppeteering or shepherding, they're just undefined, or defined individually. Where is logic in "good" and "evil"? The two are wholly undefinable as anything more than words subject to personal interpretations. Most things are an attempt to manipulate the reality you perceive. However there is a difference between that and attempting to make puppets of people. Look at religion, they are the epitome of moral puppeteers. Good and evil as words serve no purpose but to create conflict where there was none and to try and rationalize people's actions without using rational thought.
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:06 pm
The Resurrection DrasBrisingr The Resurrection DrasBrisingr The Resurrection Good and evil are tools of the puppet master and the shepherd. They exist only in the minds of the puppet and the sheep. ...Wait...what the hell? Honestly, I don't understand that at all. I'm all for "******** the man," but "good and evil" are conspiracies of the government, or any other "puppet master" or "shepherd". "Good and evil" are not comparable to something like..."the fight for freedom" or commercialism. I mean, you do realize the concept of "good and evil" has been around almost since the creation of mankind. Or at least communicated from the beginning of spoken language. It's not some new fad that the government or socialites have created to promote conformity or something. I don't know, maybe I'm misinterpreting what you've posted, but that's what stood out to me. I really think you need to lay of the conspiracy theorist novels there, buddy. You're just looking at it with too narrow a spectrum. Anyone who tries to persuade/dissuade someone to do/not do something based on the reasoning that it's good/bad seeks to be a puppet master. They seek to make that person a puppet. For the exact reason that morals are totally relative. Nothing is inherently good or evil and nothing makes them good or evil except your opinion as based on your own goals and desires. Like I always say: There is no good or evil. There is only like and dislike, want and don't want. I'm still missing your logic, here. I mean...I sort of understand where you're coming from, but I think you're getting a bit too carried away with it. Almost anything can be considered puppeteering, if you look at it skeptically enough. Saying "hello" to someone on the street could be seen as trying to be a puppet master, because you're trying to solicit a response from the other person. If you greet someone, don't you expect them to at least acknowledge you? Good and evil are not a method of puppeteering or shepherding, they're just undefined, or defined individually. Where is logic in "good" and "evil"? The two are wholly undefinable as anything more than words subject to personal interpretations. Most things are an attempt to manipulate the reality you perceive. However there is a difference between that and attempting to make puppets of people. Look at religion, they are the epitome of moral puppeteers. Good and evil as words serve no purpose but to create conflict where there was none and to try and rationalize people's actions without using rational thought.
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:13 pm
Joshua_Ritter The Resurrection DrasBrisingr The Resurrection DrasBrisingr The Resurrection Good and evil are tools of the puppet master and the shepherd. They exist only in the minds of the puppet and the sheep. ...Wait...what the hell? Honestly, I don't understand that at all. I'm all for "******** the man," but "good and evil" are conspiracies of the government, or any other "puppet master" or "shepherd". "Good and evil" are not comparable to something like..."the fight for freedom" or commercialism. I mean, you do realize the concept of "good and evil" has been around almost since the creation of mankind. Or at least communicated from the beginning of spoken language. It's not some new fad that the government or socialites have created to promote conformity or something. I don't know, maybe I'm misinterpreting what you've posted, but that's what stood out to me. I really think you need to lay of the conspiracy theorist novels there, buddy. You're just looking at it with too narrow a spectrum. Anyone who tries to persuade/dissuade someone to do/not do something based on the reasoning that it's good/bad seeks to be a puppet master. They seek to make that person a puppet. For the exact reason that morals are totally relative. Nothing is inherently good or evil and nothing makes them good or evil except your opinion as based on your own goals and desires. Like I always say: There is no good or evil. There is only like and dislike, want and don't want. I'm still missing your logic, here. I mean...I sort of understand where you're coming from, but I think you're getting a bit too carried away with it. Almost anything can be considered puppeteering, if you look at it skeptically enough. Saying "hello" to someone on the street could be seen as trying to be a puppet master, because you're trying to solicit a response from the other person. If you greet someone, don't you expect them to at least acknowledge you? Good and evil are not a method of puppeteering or shepherding, they're just undefined, or defined individually. Where is logic in "good" and "evil"? The two are wholly undefinable as anything more than words subject to personal interpretations. Most things are an attempt to manipulate the reality you perceive. However there is a difference between that and attempting to make puppets of people. Look at religion, they are the epitome of moral puppeteers. Good and evil as words serve no purpose but to create conflict where there was none and to try and rationalize people's actions without using rational thought. I find it undesirable as the people controlling them tend to lead them in directions other than the one I want. lol Stop trying to bait me into using good and bad. lol
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:33 pm
The Resurrection Joshua_Ritter The Resurrection DrasBrisingr The Resurrection You're just looking at it with too narrow a spectrum. Anyone who tries to persuade/dissuade someone to do/not do something based on the reasoning that it's good/bad seeks to be a puppet master. They seek to make that person a puppet. For the exact reason that morals are totally relative. Nothing is inherently good or evil and nothing makes them good or evil except your opinion as based on your own goals and desires. Like I always say: There is no good or evil. There is only like and dislike, want and don't want. I'm still missing your logic, here. I mean...I sort of understand where you're coming from, but I think you're getting a bit too carried away with it. Almost anything can be considered puppeteering, if you look at it skeptically enough. Saying "hello" to someone on the street could be seen as trying to be a puppet master, because you're trying to solicit a response from the other person. If you greet someone, don't you expect them to at least acknowledge you? Good and evil are not a method of puppeteering or shepherding, they're just undefined, or defined individually. Where is logic in "good" and "evil"? The two are wholly undefinable as anything more than words subject to personal interpretations. Most things are an attempt to manipulate the reality you perceive. However there is a difference between that and attempting to make puppets of people. Look at religion, they are the epitome of moral puppeteers. Good and evil as words serve no purpose but to create conflict where there was none and to try and rationalize people's actions without using rational thought. I find it undesirable as the people controlling them tend to lead them in directions other than the one I want. lol Stop trying to bait me into using good and bad. lol
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:33 am
My primary problem with the argument is that it still denounces an "evil" in the form of puppeteering, while stating that we should all belive it...violating its own morality.
If left to our own devices we will eventually come to an opinion of those things which benefit us and those which damage us on both a large and small scale. These will by and large, overlap between any two people, barring other, manipulating forces.
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:21 am
be nice at first, if that doesn't work. play mean.
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:17 pm
Joshua_Ritter The Resurrection Joshua_Ritter The Resurrection DrasBrisingr The Resurrection You're just looking at it with too narrow a spectrum. Anyone who tries to persuade/dissuade someone to do/not do something based on the reasoning that it's good/bad seeks to be a puppet master. They seek to make that person a puppet. For the exact reason that morals are totally relative. Nothing is inherently good or evil and nothing makes them good or evil except your opinion as based on your own goals and desires. Like I always say: There is no good or evil. There is only like and dislike, want and don't want. I'm still missing your logic, here. I mean...I sort of understand where you're coming from, but I think you're getting a bit too carried away with it. Almost anything can be considered puppeteering, if you look at it skeptically enough. Saying "hello" to someone on the street could be seen as trying to be a puppet master, because you're trying to solicit a response from the other person. If you greet someone, don't you expect them to at least acknowledge you? Good and evil are not a method of puppeteering or shepherding, they're just undefined, or defined individually. Where is logic in "good" and "evil"? The two are wholly undefinable as anything more than words subject to personal interpretations. Most things are an attempt to manipulate the reality you perceive. However there is a difference between that and attempting to make puppets of people. Look at religion, they are the epitome of moral puppeteers. Good and evil as words serve no purpose but to create conflict where there was none and to try and rationalize people's actions without using rational thought. I find it undesirable as the people controlling them tend to lead them in directions other than the one I want. lol Stop trying to bait me into using good and bad. lol Good and bad are so imprecise though. They suggest there is something inherently repulsive or favorable about the action, thing, etc. I do not like "good", "bad", "evil", etc. Right and wrong are ok, but more like when talking about arithmetic answers than this sort of thing. Even then it's better to use correct and incorrect.
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:18 pm
The Resurrection Where is logic in "good" and "evil"? The two are wholly undefinable as anything more than words subject to personal interpretations. ... Good and evil as words serve no purpose but to create conflict where there was none and to try and rationalize people's actions without using rational thought. Um. Most words are only considered "definable" by majority consensus and, as Lewis Carroll so aptly pointed out, no one has to abide by even a majority decision in their own personal use. To use his example, you can't assume you know what someone means by "glory" until they tell you - which means again you need to understand the person's definition of the words they use to explain. It's more or less like the picture on the Cream of Wheat box - you get an infinite iteration of attempts to understand. At some point, what you really need to ask yourself is, "Why am I bothering?" After which point, I consider it acceptable to kick the annoying git in the jimmies. And that last vituperative bit was an incredibly subjective statement, based not on rational thought but reactionary bitterness. Did someone beat you mercilessly as a child in the name of "goodness", or what?
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:19 pm
I've chosen to abandon this conversation because it's turned into ceaseless bickering. Well maybe not bickering, but repetitively saying the same exact thing. And no one will win. But I do have one thing to say. In response to: The Ressurection Most things are an attempt to manipulate the reality you perceive. However there is a difference between that and attempting to make puppets of people.I wholly disagree. People and animate beings are reality. Without them, there would be none. How do you know if something's real? If you can touch it? Sure, but do you not touch and feel things in your dreams? I don't know about you, but I can. Animate beings make reality. I could also go into the "if a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound?" thing, but I won't bother. So anyway, there is no difference between trying to manipulat people, and manipulating reality. Besides, I think you have a pretty ******** up definition of "reality", if you think "most things are an attempt to manipulate the reality you percieve." Manipulate fate or destiny, maybe, but not reality.
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:45 pm
TLB's simple solution to everything (including good and evil):
Just do what makes majority happy.
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